Dual GJALLARHORNs! - Page 2

Have you considered building a raiser??? That would probably give you that tactile sensation you been missing in the lower frequencies. Like I mentioned before, my wooden structured home shakes like a madman when called upon. But it still pails in comparison to MJaudio's setup. His theater is in a 2nd floor loft and that place gets all sorts of movements! It truly is an experience!!

Anyhow, subscribed and looking forward to your impressions once your horns are built.

Might be worth doing this as a first step just to see what kind if difference it will make...

I think that would give you a lot more tactile Luke but at a cost of literal headroom. MK's theater has like 6'6" standing headroom and I would find that claustrophobic not to mention the lack of room height has to affect the sound presentation.

The room seems bigger than you think and I am 6'3". The sound is actually fantastic but I went to great lengths to get there. Not hard, just time and little money since it was DIY.

Under 15hz is never violent, it is just subtle pressure, weight, and a wobble to the already audible bass. This is why I don't like shakers as much for down low because drivers don't really shake you at those low frequencies.

Re the riser, I have 2 rows of seats and the back row is on a riser. It really makes a difference in the tactile dept. In fact that's what has me chasing more in the lfe dept so my front row can catch up. Maybe I'll just build a riser for the front seats too. Anyone know the minimum height a riser can be to be lossy enough to allow for a good shake?

I'm sure it sounds fantastic MK and meant no offense. I'm 6'5" and cringe at the thought of rooms with low ceilings. Although it has it's own challenges, I think there is something to the sense of spaciousness that an HT with tall ceilings (like a commercial theater) provides. I had my first HT setup downstairs in a open room with 20' ceilings and I have never been able to re-create the BIG sound that room produced especially with music. My HT's ceilings are 9'.

I understand, I wish I had a bigger or taller room. I was going to dig into the basement floor and make my theater deeper but who knows what lurks under there, I would probably hit the water level and cause flooding. Anyways, like I said, the effects are subtle and nothing like 20hz and up but it adds to the realism of everyday life. If we filtered out under 15hz in real life things would sound funny to us because we are used to natural sounds that go down to 1hz. It happens all the time but we don't pay attention because it just adds to life. See, the difference between the OS and the gjallarhorns are that the OS acts like a sealed sub under the horn loading so RMK! has dual high excursion 18's for ULF's. The Tapped horn will fall off like a rock under the horn loading so if it were me I would build a horn sub with a sealed chamber or tapped or ported with a tune of 11-12hz. That gives you the best of both worlds. Of course just adding more sealed does the same thing but that is the most expensive option using LMS 5400's. What about a ported monster like ricci's xxx ported but use your LMS 5400's? The enclosure won't be as big and have a tune of 10-12hz and it will reach into single digits in room and the midbass will be better to boot.

Very interesting posts about the low end and concrete floors. Always wondered if anyone has tested the usefulness on different floors as I am on concrete. I have a small room and low ceiling and am thinking of trying the earthquake Q10b shaker on the riser they recommend as its not very tall.

http://earthquakeeurope.com/Products/Home-Audio/BassShakerAndAccesories/Q10B/Pdf/US/Q10B_mountingInfo_US.pdf

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1114952/official-earthquake-sound-quake-10-0b-transducer-thread

Will be following this thread for sure.

I have concrete for the first row and a wodden riser for the back seats. There should be no need for shakers on the riser. I actually don't like the floor vibrating compared to the front row on concrete but this is most likely due to the fact the front row feels more air movement than the back row.

Interesting, what would be the cause in the difference of more air movement in the different locations? I know you have done some testing of your systems low end and output with distortion measurements. Have you tried sitting in the different seats on and off riser during these types of tests? Is there a difference in lets say 10hz at 110db on the riser vs. concrete measuring in both seat locations to make sure both 110db?

I don't have the capability and a better sub setup is on the list of changes. I find the testing of the <20hz and all discussion of this range very interesting because few have the capability to do these tests and >20hz information is available and documented. I have read about rotary subs and lots of the discussions here and elsewhere and do find the material useful to add more realism. I think it is a benefit to have it in the source material and broadband low distortion playback at reference such as you and the other select few have as the "final frontier" in bass audio reproduction.

That being said I can't knock the man for doing the tests with 4 5400's in his room and trying something different as doubling his low end budget isn't in the cards. It will be a fun build to keep tabs on and I am sure he will be happy with the results.

Thanks for the info!

First, has he tried applying a low end boost to his sealed setup to get higher 10-20hz numbers? If I were to do ported it would have to be tuned from 10-12hz so I can still get into single digits. I will measure from my back seats on the riser to see what happens, I know since the seats are close to the back wall which voids 7.1 it also adds more pressure and the floor vibrates like crazy.

My feelings about my room exactly. I tried an 11Hz LLT... it was nothing special below 15Hz and not loud enough above.

I often wonder what my own horns would be like if they were on a wooden floor and/or the basement had a door on it. As is, it takes 120dB from 15Hz up to make me really happy in this room. That's why I'm not exactly in a hurry to build a wall of sealed UXL 18" boxes below my screen. I couldn't afford to do that even if I wanted to.

Since the LMS 5400 has more output at 10hz than the XXX can we assume if a Big ported monster tuned like Ricci's would at least get the same output? If so then your 4 sealed will get 107 dBs at 10hz and one of those monsters would get at least 102 and probably more since it is tuned at 11 hz so it would boost 10hz. Duals would get you more output than you have now at 10hz and much more Midbass than the XXX's so it would get much closer to the GH.

Hey MK,

Been to Disney lately? Just checking in. How you been . These Gjallerhorns look frightening. /whatever happened to your system. Still the DTS?

Anyhow, this is a serious machine if it works anything like the Danley TH50. Worth it even just for the wow factor.

Keep cranking.

Robert

It does not. It has higher output while passing Cea2010. Remember this is not the same as maximum output especially in the deep bass where distortion is highest. The xxx shows about 3 dB more displacement limited output. you have to look at the cea2010 chart in the individual measurements and there is no overlay comparison of the data. Also remember that distortion usually goes down in larger enclosures and the XXX is really not suited for small enclosures like it was tested in, while the LMS is.

I'd try a 6" riser. Even if it helps a little, you'll make it even better once your horns are finished. Can't wait to see pics of the these beasts.

Our place is built above over a full concrete floor and concrete wall garage. The floor itself is well insulated from the garage. Flooring top is tile. Walls are 6" and also well insulated. While built really well, when in the 20's, teens and lower it can feel like the world is coming to an end. Not only do we feel it in the face, and body, but it also feels like the couch or chair your in is taking off with rockets strapped on. Would scare the living crap out of us the first few times. The dual dts-10's are coupled together and face listening position. With sweeps at seating position 32ft away it starts rolling from the reference line at 12.5hz. Not saying couldn't do this with a sealed array which was contemplated in the same space as the dts-10's. But at 100dB sensitivity and less drivers with less power to run was the most intriguing at the time. What's done with 4kw and 4x 12's is pretty amazing.

Why not float a wood sub floor over the concrete using something like Delta FL? That will give you a wood floor with minimal height loss and I would think it should provide some of that tactile sensation in the floor. That's been my plan for my basement home theater.

I forgot about that small box which is great for the LMS 5400. You do get the point I am saying though, The LMS in that ported monster would seem like the best tradeoffs.

Robertcharles,
What's up! I have not been to disney because we have been taking the Disney Cruise every year rather than Disney so I get to watch movies in their 2 theaters on the ship. I have all sealed subs now and they really rock, I am impressed to say the least. Here is a short video.

Nevermind, I see you have seen my thread, that video was done by Madaeel's friend who is a professional. He has more but thought it was too dark but the computer shows enough light. I will try to get him to post more. I don't even know what they have.

MK,
The LMS in the vented sub would have 2 or 3dB lower output in the deep bass than the XXX and the response shape would be different with a dip and then a peak developing at the low end near port tune because the volume is larger than the driver wants. Plus the LMS is a lot easier to bottom than the XXX in a cab that big. Also you seem to be concentrating on the <13Hz area where Luke has said it is underwhwelming in his room with 4 sealed LMS already. He is not looking to get more headroom in the ULF range which will require 4 more drivers and twice the amplifier=$$$ for another 6dB gain. He wants more output where it does make a big impact to him subjectively. The horn will get him far greater output out of the drivers and amplifiers he already has in the range he is interested in.

I would not use the same box but one custom built for the LMS? I am just saying if he built a sub like that with a 10hz tune he would get extension to 10hz like he has now(if he boosted down low) with great output above. The GH is tuned to what? 20hz? Personally that is too high a tune for a great HT experience as compared to adding the 10-19hz stuff. I mean he could build a folded horn like the F-20 utilizing the LMS 5400 and get better results than the OS. Maybe the GH is that design? The OS and F-20 both rolloff like a sealed sub below horn loading and a Tapped horn falls off a cliff like a ported sub. What wowed him was the 25hz and above from the OS so the GH would surely impress, no doubt. I was just saying maybe he could even add more tactile sensations from the 10-19hz range. I know the 2 DTS-10s in my room had great 10hz extension and the 4 F-20's went to 18hz with similar output.

Eric, you remember the difference of the bass between my front row and my second row riser. It is pretty significant. Almost everything I am down in my theater I consider just making the second row the MLP, but I still have yet to actually do it. Having a concrete floor, along with three of the 4 walls being concrete as well, there aint NOTHING moving in my theater which is good, but also bad. I really do wish I had more of that tactile feel though. Perhaps tonight I will move both rows up a shade, and make the 2nd row my MLP :chuckle chuckle:


Ive considered this too, but I choose instead to keep pursuing a system capable enough that I wont need it My riser at the moment is just a 6" riser, and if I did make it the MLP, I would have to stilt it another 4" or so so viewing the screen, I would be able to see all the way over the front couch. My ceiling is drop ceiling with the HVAC running through it as well so I don't even think I have 8 feet to start with!!! Nonetheless, a 10" riser still keeps me at around 7 foot ceiling so that is not all too bad, and it is only for small section where the riser is, not the whole room.


What is Delta FL? I am interested! I have long considered doing something like a floating floor, it is certainly easier and takes up much less space than a riser.

Ricci and I talked about his funky ported RE box a while back when I almost drove to take it off his hands for some fun but then I got to scribbling and realized that two boxes, 24x66x36 would yield about 29cuft, and could accomplish a 10hz tune and be pretty rediculous with my pair of RE's. It would also double as a front stage under my projector which would basically span from side wall to sidewall laid down. "CRAZY"

Delta-FL

They sell it at Lowes (or they used to).

Very

James what are you talking about?

GH is 16Hz corner and full power till about 14Hz. By far the most powerful and efficient system 15-60Hz that I have tested. Again switching from 2 sealed LMS to one GH he gains headroom at 12.5Hz with half the power. I mean... only >105dB 12.5Hz output from a single at 2 meters outside? Sure does seem like there won't be much going on below 20Hz in a room with these.

FLH do not roll off at 12dB octave like a sealed sub it is closer to 18db/octave they do have a sealed chamber which prevents the driver from bottoming at least.