Viewsonic Pro8200 - No detail in dark scene's

I would think the fact that the image is good from the pc indicates the mismatch is with the ps3, though the cable box is troubling. Is it from the cable company.

I know until I set the blu ray player to RGB standard (in the case of my panasonic it needed to be changed in two places) I had the same issue.

Someone with a ps3 have a suggestion?

Go to your projector settings and make sure the input mode is set to RGB. It doesn't like being on Auto (or YbCr) when connected to a PS3.

You might have to play with the color balance settings to get the low bars to show up. I had the exact same issue and needed to dink around with it and other settings before all the flashing bars on the calibration disc showed up.

It may also be because the lamp is bright being new that is it overwhelming any dark details and you just have to give it a couple hundred hours to dim a bit. That is just a theory though.

The only issue I see is your statement that the image looked good when going through the bluray player on your pc.

If the defect was the projector, it seems the image would be dark regardless of the source.

I'd try Viewsonic's support line. I found them to be good to work with.

If you got it from Newegg, I think their policy is 30 days.

Is the source set to RGB out? When my blu ray player was set to auto, I had tons of black crush. Had to set it to RGB. Not just RGB on the projector, but from the source also. It's a stupid think about the viewsonic if you ask me.

I'm having the same problem with a new Viewsonic Pro8200 only I am connecting it to an LG Blue ray player. I tried setting both the Blueray and projector source to RGB but I still get a bad black crush. I verified that the problem is between the Blue ray player and the projector by playing a DVD using my computer over HDMI to the projector. Has anyone solved this problem another way?
I'm also wondering if anyone has found a working combination of Blue ray player to the Viewsonic Pro8200? It might be cheaper and faster for me to order a new Blue ray player than to ship the projector back for repair.
Thanks

These are the settings that need to be set so the PS3 will display properly for video.
Video Settings

BD Internet: "Allow"
BD/DVD Cinema Conversion: "Automatic"
BD/DVD Upscaler: "Normal"
BD/DVD Video Output Format (HDMI): "Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr" for TVs, "RGB" for PC Monitors
BD 1080p 24Hz Output: "Automatic"
BD/DVD Dynamic Range Control: "Off"
BD/DVD Audio Output Format (HDMI): "Linear PCM"
BD/DVD Audio Output Format (Optical Digital): "Bitstream"

Display Settings

RGB Full Range (HDMI): "Limited"
Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr Super-White (HDMI): "On"

Is the bluray player in HDMI enhanced mode or deep color or any of those on?
If yes, turn them all off (if already off, try turning them on). Ensure PJ and Bluray COLOR mode is also set to RGB or AUTO. Try different settings on both of the devices.

Gamma should generally be set to 1 on the projector if in standard mode...

What projector mode are you using, what brightness/contrast and gamma?
Keep in mind that the room conditions (non-bat cave can affect your ability to see some patterns unless you really crank brightness/contrast)...
You could actually be BARELY clipping a level (just a notch below or above), but video in this case sometimes will still look ok. You will find some of the white/black pluge patterns become visibly suddenly as you hit the right brightness/contrast combination.

Is there a contrast/brightness control on your bluray player?
If there is, first try setting it to 0/0 if it was not at this position. Then adjust the Viewsonic contrast/brightness/gamma to see if it helps. If it was already at 0/0 on the bluray player, try lowering contrast first, check pattern, then try all combinations, etc... Then go back and try messing with the VS controls again.

Seems like the reason you can see HTPC shadow details is because it is outputting at a different absolute black level. For instance I have to turn my brightness way down when using the HTPC or it will be blown out and at the wrong black level.
Some AV receivers may not pass anything except 16-235 via HDMI. This means that if you are setting your source to RGB (0-255) you may get your black and white levels truncated, or vice versa.

If there is anything in the chain (receiver/HDMI switch), try removing it temporarily. If all else fails, try to reset the Viewsonic to factory defaults and start over from the beginning. Some of your clipping could even be a combination of bad gray-scale settings and color settings, since on the VS some of those controls can bug out occasionally (at least on some firmwares).

Thank you Coderguy for all the suggestions. I ran some more tests and here is what I found:

There is no HDMI enhanced mode on the LG BD550 Blue Ray player. In fact there are very few setup choices at all. I can change the HDMI color setting to RGB or YCbCr. Neither of these settings has any effect even if I match it to the same color mode on the projector.
The gamma on the projector has little effect either. The default is 0. Setting it to 1 makes the picture slightly darker. Same with all the other choices except 6 which brightness up the picture quite a bit but it totally washes out the blacks in the process.
I tried resetting the projector to the default settings which also did not help.

I did try another source. This time I used my old DVD only player (an Oppo DV 981HD). I plugged it into the same HDMI cable that the LG Blue Ray player uses. As with the computer, this source played just fine. No dark crush. Not a perfect picture but well within range and I'm sure I could get it perfect with a little tweaking.

The combo of the LG BD550 and the Viewsonic stills seems to be the problem. I think I have ruled out the cabling and receiver or any setting on the Viewsonic. Whatever is the problem between these two components it seems to be out of the range of the adjustments to fix.

I think what I am going to try next is to order a new Blue Ray player from Amazon (most likely a Panasonic DMP-BDT220). Then carefully unbox it and use it as a test. If it works then it is probably worth $100 to keep it and stop messing around trying to get the LG to work. If it doesn't then I can send it back and then explore what it would take to get the Viewsonic repaired.

I got the Panasonic DMP-BDT220, set it up and initially the black crush was still there. I changed the setting on the projector to RGB and on the blue ray I set it to "enhanced RGB" and that seems to have fixed it. The shadow detail was there. Phew!
The colors are a little too saturated but I'm sure I can fix that by tweaking the gamma and color settings.

My wife commented after all this tech drama "how does the average person ever figure this stuff out?!" I never thought twice about the shadow detail and color settings on my old Mitsubishi projector and LG blue ray combo. It just worked. I suppose I was lucky but I am surprised that this new Viewsonic was so picky about the source. Most people are not going to have the patience to try all the things I had to do to get it to work. Seems a bit half baked to me

You have RGB limited, RGB full, and Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr.

For the cable box the correct setting should be Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr since this is how your cable box should be outputting the signal.

For PC it should be RGB full.

The output from pc is different than for cable box. The PC outputs video 0-255 while a cable box will use 16-235 (well, actually it's Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr). 0-255 is rgb full in playstation settings, 16-235 is rgb limited.

What these numbers indicate is black and white level. 0 is the blackest black for rgb, 16 is the blackest black for limited. Since the ranges are different, if you use the wrong settings you will either get a washed out picture, or a picture that looks too contrasty (mostly notice black crush and loss of shadow detail).

Auto setting on projectors should recognize the signal and switch automatically...but on mine and probably other projectors this doesn't work right all the time. It only auto switches from YUV (Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr) and full RGB but it doesn't distinguish between limited and full RGB which makes sense but is annoying.

I think it's generally best to set everything to Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr. Mainly because this is what the cable box outputs and most of the time the cable box is the least flexible source. In this case the projector would be set to receive this signal and the ps3, cable box and computer should be set to output this signal. Some PC setups (like mine) can't do this and if I setup my pc to output RGB limited, I will have to switch it over to RGB full whenever I use the pc on the projector. The way I have it setup is that the ps3 and pc use rgb full. So if either are sending a signal to the projector the projector switches to RGB full, when it detects a signal from the cable box it switches to YUV. I also have a plasma tv connected to the same system and that does give me issues since I have to go to expert settings and change black level from low to high depending on whether i'm using 0-255 values or 16-235 values. I just have to do that manually and live with it. If I could get the pc to output Y Pb/Cb Pr/Cr, then I would setup everything that way and be done with it.

Based on your posts I think that the RGB setting for that projector is ONLY for 0-255 levels, you don't have a setting for RGB 16-235. So anything using RGB limited would look screwy as the projector thinks the colorspace is 0-255 when the source is outputting 16-235 (image is washed out).

The way you currently have things setup: your ps3 should also be set for rgb full. And if you want to use the cable box you'll have to set it to Y Pc/Cb Pr/Cr. Perhaps try the auto setting again to see if it works like it is supposed to.

Yes it is a headache...to answer your wife's question....Avsforum. That is how we learn all this crap. (now try all this with 2 monitors connected to the same receiver which require different settings...Fun Fun Fun)

I am having just about the same problem as the OP. My bluray player (Samsung BDP1590) has no color adjustment and there is no shadow detail

Tried my xbox 360 playing half life 2 and it looked perfect, as well as playing Forza 2.

Cable box has way to bright of reds, and blues, and yellows, otherwise colors were ok, which also included black crush.

I dont plan on watching TV with the PJ, so I guess I need to get a new blu-ray player? or is my unit defective?


First post, member for 7 years!
Edited by PhantomD - 1/21/13 at 8:45pm

Not defective.. maybe just not compatible. The 1590 is over 3 years old and seems to have issues From the posts here, even if some Bluray players have an RGB out setting, it's only the 16-235 range. Still need the RGB 0-255 or "RGB Full" option. It seems cable boxes, dvd players, TVs have no trouble, but projectors originated more from the PC/monitor side of things and expect 0-255. Besides, most people have to wait for somethign to break before getting an upgrade Trade/sell-off/move the working 1590 to another TV and upgrade. Just my amateur opinion. It could be the 1590 has the option somewhere (maybe with (risky) f/w update or something. Good Luck.

Thanks for the support. I will try and swap my bluray player with my mothers, hers is newer and might work. It seems ridiculous that this is not corrected in the PJ. Seeing how I am new to PJs, is this color issue true for all PJs or just the cheap ones?

So, Just tried another blu ray player, this one had the ability to change between YCbCr and RGB. Which had NO improvement on either setting.

It's an LG BD550. I am using the "Bear Fight" Scene in Brave as a reference. On my HDTV I can see grass and the bears legs, on my Pro8200 I cant see any of it.


SO, looks like I need to upgrade? Any recommendations for blu ray players that are capable of "RGB Full" that are ~ $100 or less range? PM me.


Question: The Sony BDP-S590 has a few color options that confuse me. two of them are YCbCr 4:2:2 and YCbCr 4:4:4. What does it mean? and does one of those equal a "RGB full" color space?




EDIT: am I understanding this properly, the projector is only capable of RGB full, and not RGB limited? but if its being given and RGB limited black (16) it should be projected as grey if the projector is expecting an RGB full Black (0) So why do I have horrible black crush?

EDIT#2: Ok, it helps to re-read the thread and not assume I am the only one here... Looks like the OP had the same problem, WITH THE SAME PLAYER DOH! I should have checked that first. OK... I guess I will buy a new blu ray player...
Edited by PhantomD - 1/24/13 at 11:57am

RGB Limited just means 16-235, whereas RGB Full is 0-255. From what I remember (and my memory is getting foggy on this), the Viewsonic is expecting an RGB FULL or LIMITED SIGNAL when you have it hooked up to HDMI, but it doesn't really matter since the levels are just re-mapped, well other than it could if it mess up the gamma and contrast and brightness, which is what you are probably seeing. When I switched back to my PC my black levels were messed up, so I had to lower the brightness control, as well as on the HTPC I used internal ramp patterns from Calman to check it. The Viewsonic doesn't support whiter than white, and blacker than black is useless anyhow as no Blurays are encoded on it, so the main thing is just to get your contrast/brightness correct and check for crush with the AVS Rec 709 test disk.

Are you using a PLUGE pattern to set the black level (brightness), a flashing contrast ramp pattern for white level (contrast),
and various patterns to double check everything (gamma, contrast, + brightness)?
Burn a copy of the AVS Rec 709 test disk as mentioned before, without a test disk you are really not doing anything correct here. You need the pluge patterns and a flashing contrast ramp pattern to check for basic crush, but to fully evaluate the display's ability to resolve detail at individual gamma points accurately requires measuring the gamma curve with a meter.

Without calibrating gray-scale, your gamma curve is most likely at least a tad lumpy and erratic on the Viewsonic. It has good OOTB color though, but if you are randomly messing with the calibration without checking test patterns and using a meter, you're going to cause issues even if you get the projector's black floor and peak white levels mapped correctly.

Try YCbCr 4:2:2 and then try 4:4:4, just experiment to see if you get better results. There is no --- "oh no I am scared to PUSH the red button setting"...
YCbCr is a standard video format. RGB is the traditional PC / computer format. Trying to remember how I had the VS setup, try AUTO on VS first and mixes of different combos of bluray settings. There are only so many combos to try, so you can just use elimination here.

If all else fails, I guess try a Panasonic bluray player, or maybe a Sony (but some of the Sony players do cause some minor unwanted adjustments). There are certain Panny players that are best for calibration and do not affect the image. Despite conventional wisdom, some bluray players mess with color space and other things even when you have everything else correct, it's the post-processing in them that causes it, generally someone set a bad default that is enhancing (or de-hancing) the image when it shouldn't. I have even seen some bluray players cause crush even with a Full to Full mapping or a Limited to Limited one to one mapping, in this case I actually had to adjust the contrast on the bluray player to a negative amount by a few notches, there are some odd things but they can usually be worked around.

I don't think It should make a cataclysmic difference if you pass RGB full or RGB limited if you adjust the brightness/contrast accordingly as LONG as the projector is accepting the signal without side effects, but this will VARY with every combination of player/video device in the end, as well as all the Viewsonic settings. Also, beyond white peaks and the black floor, it could affect the gamma levels at different IRE's as the Viewsonic has a bad habit of when adjusting one thing it changes another even when it shouldn't. One issue with the Viewsonic is it doesn't have a refined multi-point GAMMA calibration option, so it makes it harder to tweak the gamma curve. Even if you use a full 0-255 flashing test pattern for contrast and brightness (this helps), but this does not necessarily cover all bases as it still isnt telling you the specifics of how the gamma curve actually looks such as a flat 2.2 or whatever.

You say you are seeing more detail on your HDTV, well that is not a good test. TV's have higher contrast than projectors, and just because you see more detail does not mean your TV's gamma is set correctly either, the gamma could be too low on the TV allowing for detail to be seen (no idea without measuring).
Edited by coderguy - 1/26/13 at 5:18am

Wow, I really appreciate the explanation!

I will burn the 709 disk and calibrate both screens, but its obvious I am missing a great deal of detail on the PJ, the TV may be a bit bright but the difference is immense.

Also since the OP had success with a particular player I will try and purchase that one, or at least from a brick and mortar store with a good return policy.


It still seems to me like this PJ has some very odd expectations in color space for a home theatre projector.


Oh, and my question about the Sony settings in my last post: I don't own that
Player, I was reading the online manual and I did not recognize that designation from anywhere else.

First set the brightness control to get the black floor right, without doing that you are just doing random things. Also, if your contrast and/or gamma and/or gray-scale are set incorrectly, it won't matter if the video levels are at X point, it doesn't work that way. If your brightness and contrast control are not at first set correctly, then you are really just juggling random variables.

Your gamma is also affected by your gray-scale calibration, and without a multipoint GAMMA calibration (which is not possible on the VS), well you can crush stuff even when video levels are perfect, so I think you need to experiment before, that said Bluray players are pretty cheap and you can return it, so doesn't hurt.

The problem is even if you make the black floor brighter or the areas just above the black floor (10 IRE to 30IRE), if the gray-scale and gamma are too messed up, it will crush detail in colors no matter what you do. It might still be a video level issue, but generally I don't remember having a problem calibrating around the VL levels on the Viewsonic.

all of this is very good advice on how to calibrate contrast and brightness BUT...

don;t forget with other sources on the same input the video is good/shadow detail is fine. Calibrating brightness won;t help if the blacks are crushed to zero.. then lightened.. the detail is gone forever.

I'm assuming that analog inputs need calibrated for variance in signal, but on digital connections, the values from the source wouldn;t change UNLESS there is processing due to change in the rgb full/limted settings etc. I'm not pro, this is just my understanding of why the player is the issue, not the projector.

again, why would a ps3 paying bluray look fine and a bluray not , unless it was the capabilities/settings of the payer itself?

It is cleaner / better to match the video levels to what the projector is expecting, but there are generally workarounds if you are not able to.

The video levels are just re-mapped but the re-mapping is not fully automatic as it requires the need to re-adjust the calibration or to use a different preset, there are no pixels at VL 0 as it is pure black. Crush occurs when one or more video levels blend together. The USUAL problem is that it requires two separate calibrations, hence if you go back and forth between one device then go back to the other, the reason shadow detail is lost is because you have invalid brightness/contrast/gamma for one of the sources when it is doing the remapping. Most devices generally handle playing a BLURAY with few side effects regardless what your Video Level is, as long as you calibrate to fix it MOST not all. I don't recall the VS having a black crush issue after adjusting a separate preset for brightness/contrast/gamma to compensate.

The confusion is that you can have problems (mostly with gaming) in the various conversions between various devices which clips data or makes it so dark that you run out of calibration room, and this sometimes can cause crush, but it is not because the VL was re-mapped to 0, it is because of clipping in the conversion (but this should not happen with blurays as it does in gaming, because the important data on Blurays are encoded in a limited range). For bluray players, use YCbCr anyways on the Viewsonic unless you just cannot get one of those modes working.

The other problem is if you pass the Viewsonic RGB full, well the Bluray is playing from the standard YCbCr and there are conversions going on beyond just re-mapping video levels (YCbCr 16-235 to RGB full can get messy). I cannot account for all possible setup variables however, as I only remember what I did and I'm sure there is some problematic equipment, but I am afraid newbs are going to jump to conclusions after reading this thread.

Most of the people having this issue are new and don't know anything about calibration, but even if it cannot be calibrated around and there is a color mapping / gamma / full RGB bug (I didn't see one), some people are still misunderstanding the problem.
Edited by coderguy - 1/25/13 at 9:19am

I burned the 709 disk and I calibrated my HDTV, which was very close to begin with, now it's perfect... but I did not notice a huge difference in the Bear scene that I have been using as a benchmark.

THEN, I went to costco (due to their amazing return policy) and found a Sony BDP-BX59 for less then $80 and hooked it up. At first the bear fight scene was identical to my other BD player and lacked all shadow details. I then changed the sony settings to RGB and voila! it have all the shadow detail. It obviously needs to be calibrated since it's too bright, but now at least I can enjoy Blu rays on the PJ...

EDIT: was not clear that I changed the BD player to RGB
Edited by PhantomD - 1/25/13 at 3:12pm

Sounds good, although I am still not 100% convinced (not meaning to doubt you specifically, but I hear lots of things in this forum that I later test for and find out not to be accurate), I'd have to see the old player to test if there is a workaround or not with different modes. Sounds like the VS is potentially clipping in the conversion between Full to Limited only when it converts from YCbCr Limited to RGB FULL. I cannot remember how I had my various HTPC and Bluray setup when I was actively watching the Viewsonic, but I didn't have that issue after I adjusted around it.

The Viewsonic seemed to handle RGB Full and RGB Limited just fine with no change in shadow detail (if adjusting calibration to compensate), but I think you are saying the problem is YCbCr to RGB Full (that is possible). I doubt I tried doing it that way.
Edited by coderguy - 1/25/13 at 3:19pm

Well I calibrated the PJ using the 709 disk (minus the part where you need a filter) and I barely touched anything. It had a much better response to the changes then the HDTV, but the factory settings were a bit bright, but good.

My girlfriend and I watched Paranorman and I was blown away by the colors, it was great. We had previously watched Frankenweenie and I was very disappointed (this was with the old BD player) so this new player had a HUGE difference. I am curious as to why? but at least it works.

one interesting thing I ran into setting the projector up was using a cable extender (yeah I know) and two of the cheap monoprice cables. It would not display ANY signal at all, just garbled colors. I now have a 25ft 24awg cable (monoprice 3990) and the same extender and it worked great. I should have bought a 30ft cable.

When I move out of this apartment I will run the cables in the walls.