AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › Subcontrast question - Newbie Section "The Basics" without a meter
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Subcontrast question - Newbie Section "The Basics" without a meter

post #1 of 44
12/8/12 at 1:43am
Thread Starter 
Hello, i'm learning about callibration and with little efforts i have archieved the basics more or less correctly, with the help of very good experts in this forum (Doug, Sotti, Zoyd, PlasmaPZ80), thanks for your help and patience. Now i'm answering about tue subcontrast, the Service Menu's master control.

What i have learned it's that, without toching nothing in ADC RESULT, there is a subcontrast set to 132 and "gain" to 50 (my tv default values). Ok, but in ADC WB, the subcontrast it's "another history"... in some tvs it's at 134, another ones at 136 but mine's optimum is 128. My optimum and Samsung Service Manual's optimum subcontrast for my tv model is 128 and the other WB ADC values red, green and blue to 512 . I think it's because with this value i can reach all the bars flashing in the white clipping test (with my contrast at 95-100) and brings me the possibility to get all the blacks and the other basics AVS 709 features even with "standard mode" and of course in the best mode "movie mode with warm2" and all the colors to 512 grants that you are using balanced wb. Said this, i don't know why the Service Menu for standard, Dynamic or even for "movie mode" by default (if you don't touch nothing in ADC WB), it's using subcontrast at more than 128 (132 in my case and even changed and excessive RGB values for blue 580 and for red 514, only green it's at 512 making the bars in white clipping test unnaturally blue). Whith these "factory" values, i don't get all the bars flashing in white clipping and get a lot of problems with "standard mode" to get a well balance WB...

Now the question, which is bets from subcontrast?, have i must use 128 or raise up to 130? (or the variation it's not perceptible), am i losing something to lower my subcontrast to 128 and Red, Green and Blue to 512 in my ADC WB instead the factory values?
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #2 of 44
12/10/12 at 5:28am
Thread Starter 
Nobody could help please?
Reply
Reply
post #3 of 44
12/10/12 at 7:27am
Sorry, but your question is not exactly clear to me. What are you trying to accomplish by making changes to the ADC/WB? Were you having a problem with the TV? Because these systems are not very well understood, I would generally discourage anyone from making changes without good reason and guidance. Some of the settings you describe are nothing like my D series plasma, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment. That said, I don't think there would be any harm in using default values for WB (all at 512) and 128 for subcontrast. However, in doing this I assume you are aware that your TV will require at least a 2 point white balance calibration (preferably starting with 100% white point in the service menu). The factory settings you describe (like blue 580) don't sound unusual to me because they typically do exceed the default numbers. Reducing subcontrast will simply limit the range of the contrast control in the user menu, but the difference between 128 and 132 is not much IIRC. There is no "best" subcontrast setting.
Reply
Reply
post #4 of 44
12/10/12 at 7:49am
Guess I missed the title of your thread - "without a meter". I would not suggest making any changes to ADC/WB unless you can calibrate WITH a meter afterwards (and you know what you are doing wink.gif)
Reply
Reply
post #5 of 44
12/10/12 at 8:13am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

Sorry, but your question is not exactly clear to me. What are you trying to accomplish by making changes to the ADC/WB? Were you having a problem with the TV? Because these systems are not very well understood, I would generally discourage anyone from making changes without good reason and guidance. Some of the settings you describe are nothing like my D series plasma, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment. That said, I don't think there would be any harm in using default values for WB (all at 512) and 128 for subcontrast. However, in doing this I assume you are aware that your TV will require at least a 2 point white balance calibration (preferably starting with 100% white point in the service menu). The factory settings you describe (like blue 580) don't sound unusual to me because they typically do exceed the default numbers. Reducing subcontrast will simply limit the range of the contrast control in the user menu, but the difference between 128 and 132 is not much IIRC. There is no "best" subcontrast setting.

AivdHiker, thank you very much for your response!, i have sent the same question by private message too, but thank you for answer me in the forum. Said that, i'll answer your questions and explain why i'm trying to set the best subcontrast for my tv:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

What are you trying to accomplish by making changes to the ADC/WB? Were you having a problem with the TV? Because these systems are not very well understood, I would generally discourage anyone from making changes without good reason and guidance. Some of the settings you describe are nothing like my D series plasma, so I'm not sure I'm qualified to comment.

I have readed you in the Plasma D7000 and D8000 Series, like you, my panel using his factory default ADC RESULT subcontrast 132 - red, green and blue 512,512,512 and ADC WB with sucontrast 132 and red 514, green 512 and blue 580, like it was happens to you, i have white clipping making the AVS 709 White Clipping test pattern. The Plasma and LED uses different numbers in SM to say the same things (512 in my LED it's your 128 in your Plasma).

When i set my subcontrast in ADC WB to 128, i don't have any clipping, all the bars in the pattern keep flashing without discoloration, pinkin or something, like you said in another posts that was correct for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

That said, I don't think there would be any harm in using default values for WB (all at 512) and 128 for subcontrast. However, in doing this I assume you are aware that your TV will require at least a 2 point white balance calibration (preferably starting with 100% white point in the service menu).

Oh yes, setting ADC WB with 128 for subcontrast and 512 (like your 128) in RGB, i have solved too my clipping problems and solves the "blueish" color in standard mode due to factory pre-charged values (like the subcontrast fixed to 132, or the excessive blue fixed to 580). But the 2 point White balance don't need a lot of changes because all the WB colors are fixed to the same value (your 128, my 512).
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

The factory settings you describe (like blue 580) don't sound unusual to me because they typically do exceed the default numbers. Reducing subcontrast will simply limit the range of the contrast control in the user menu, but the difference between 128 and 132 is not much IIRC. There is no "best" subcontrast setting.

I'm looking for a "best" subcontrast, understanding that "best" means not clipping in any bar of the white clipping pattern with contrast at 95 or more:

looking for this i have found four situations and i need to know what is better in visual quality terms and contrast it with an expert to know if i'm doing ok or i'm doing wrong:

First try:
1) ADC Callibration with Zoyd's Pattern 16-235 makes an ADC RESULT with subcontrast 132 and RGB gains 72 with an ADC WB with subcontrast 132 and RGB values to 512: the result in white clipping was incorrect because i want to see all the bars flashing without discoloration or "redish".

Second try:
2) ADC Callibration with Zoyd's Pattern 16-255 makes an ADC RESULT with subcontrast 132 and RGB gains 50 with an ADC WB with subcontrast 132 and RGB values to 512: the result in white clipping was incorrect too because i want to see all the bars flashing without discoloration or "redish" and in this case it was'n as appreciated as in the first try, but it was noticeable.

3) Third try:

3.1: ADC Callibration with Zoyd's Pattern 16-255 makes an ADC RESULT with subcontrast 132 and RGB gains 50 with an ADC WB with subcontrast 128 and RGB values to 512: the result in white clipping was noticeable correct with no discoloration or clipping.

3.2:ADC Callibration with Zoyd's Pattern 16-255 makes an ADC RESULT with subcontrast 130 and RGB gains 50 with an ADC WB with subcontrast 130 and RGB values to 512: the result in white clipping was noticeable correct with no discoloration or clipping.

What do you think about what is the "best" config "3.1" or "3.2"?. And, if you increase subcontrast, are you increasing the "light or luminance"? it's like subcontrast at 128 was more confortable than 130 more "cinema like".

Thank you very much, not all the days i have the opportunity to speak about that with an expert here in my country and i have to answer here in this forum where thre are a lot of experts like you. Sorry for the extension of the post, and thank you again, i'm waiting your response...
Edited by connector - 12/10/12 at 8:48am
Reply
Reply
post #6 of 44
12/10/12 at 1:20pm
Careful messing about with subcontrast. In many displays it sets the range of brightness that your main contrast control affects. You really should be using a meter.smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #7 of 44
12/10/12 at 10:59pm
Subcontrast just sets the default point for the contrast control when you reset it to the "default" settings. Unless you need the display set up to be in a position where you can just hit "reset" on the remote and have it return to a calibrated state, I don't recommend changing it.
Reply
Reply
post #8 of 44
12/11/12 at 1:50am
Thread Starter 
Thats exactly what i want, because i have loosed my factory default callibartion, but believe me, that default callibration consists in raise up the blue to avoid in Dynamic or Standard mode the reddish caused by the high subcontrast that "says" in the shop "please, buy me i'm brighting more than the others!", Samsung apply after the default optimum callibration another callibration more for Dynamic and Standar (movie it's not touched) to make his TVs more competitive in sales terms... That i want to know if, it's Service Menu's default values ADC RESULT subcontrast 132 and RGB 512,512,512 with an ADC WB subcontrast 128 with RGB 512,512,512 it's the "less bad" callibration that i can reach without a meter. That is, because all the "basics" and color clipping pattern from AVS 709 bluray function properly with that configuration.
Reply
Reply
post #9 of 44
12/11/12 at 8:48am
The language barrier here is making it difficult to follow exactly what you are doing, not to mention the fact that most of the experimentation (that I am aware of at least) in the ADC system has been done on Samsung's plasmas. Also, I am far from an expert on this topic. ADC calibration (low and high values, L/H) is a tricky subject which I prefer to avoid. If you are using zoyd's test disc and displaying it correctly, then any of those patterns should work fine.
I would not assume that subcontrast behaves in exactly the same way on your LCD, but it sounds similar. On my D7000 plasma, a reduction of the subcontrast value will simply limit the maximum contrast that can be achieved in the user menu. If you have pinking (clipping) at a contrast of 95-100, then you can sometimes reduce the subcontrast value until the pinking is eliminated (otherwise, red gain must be reduced, IME). A reduction in subcontrast *on plasmas* is also useful for those who want to maintain optimal alignment in the 10 point WB controls when calibrating for a lowish peak white while using a cell setting of 20 (which we're told is the optimal setting).

Your results in 3.1 and 3.2 both sound ok to me (best I can tell, of course), so my suggestion would be to use whichever you prefer. It is impossible to know which is "better" without more thorough testing. No matter what you do at this point, your white balance is probably far from d65 so it's simply up to your subjective preference.
Reply
Reply
post #10 of 44
12/11/12 at 10:20am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

The language barrier here is making it difficult to follow exactly what you are doing, not to mention the fact that most of the experimentation (that I am aware of at least) in the ADC system has been done on Samsung's plasmas. Also, I am far from an expert on this topic. ADC calibration (low and high values, L/H) is a tricky subject which I prefer to avoid. If you are using zoyd's test disc and displaying it correctly, then any of those patterns should work fine.

Oh, of course, but believe me, though we use different tecnology (plasma in your case and LCD LED in mine), the ADC WB and ADC RESULT have the same behavior in both systems. The only difference it's that my ranges for RGB in WB ADC are from 0 to 1023 and yours are 0 to 255, that's why yours "128s" in RGB values are the same as mine "512s" and in subcontrast, both systems uses the same range "0 to 255", that's why my subcontrast behaves like yours. That it's why the Zoyd's patterns performs very well too in my LCD LED system, i've get the same ADC RESULT VALUES like another Plasma's forum members setting it to 16-235 or 16-255.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

I would not assume that subcontrast behaves in exactly the same way on your LCD, but it sounds similar. On my D7000 plasma, a reduction of the subcontrast value will simply limit the maximum contrast that can be achieved in the user menu. If you have pinking (clipping) at a contrast of 95-100, then you can sometimes reduce the subcontrast value until the pinking is eliminated (otherwise, red gain must be reduced, IME). A reduction in subcontrast *on plasmas* is also useful for those who want to maintain optimal alignment in the 10 point WB controls when calibrating for a lowish peak white while using a cell setting of 20 (which we're told is the optimal setting).
Your results in 3.1 and 3.2 both sound ok to me (best I can tell, of course), so my suggestion would be to use whichever you prefer. It is impossible to know which is "better" without more thorough testing. No matter what you do at this point, your white balance is probably far from d65 so it's simply up to your subjective preference.

Yes a reduction in subcontrast makes the same in my LED TV, limits the maximum contrast that can be archieved in the user menu. The fact is that in my TV, with ADC WB 128 subcontrast i don't have pinking (coloration to red) or clipping with contrast 95 in my user menu in the white clipping pattern with an ADC RESULT subcontrast 132, and all rgb to 50 made by Zoyd's 16-255 pattern even in standard mode. If i raise up the subcontrast to 130 or 132 then i have a little clipping and a little pinking in high whites in standard mode and a little in movie mode.

- My question is, if am i loosing something for reduce my subcontrast to 128 to get the white clippimg pattern with no clipping or pinking or discoloration?, am i must reduce some red gain and raise up subcontrast? (it's like if i raise the subcontrast i get more contrast and "luminosity" but 128s subcontrast give more "cinema appeal").

And and in adition, i want to ask you, if i set in all my ADC WB RGB values ​​to 512 (yours 128s), am i improving my color calibration? because, in the AVS 709 "color clipping test" I also see all the bars to the reference color flashing. In Movie mode, the service menu can't give access with "normal via" and that values, except subcontrast keeps their original values without changing nothing (the ADC WB that i'm answeing only affects to dynamic, natural and standar mode). Don't you think that movie mode it'll be near to D65? (standard or Dynamic or Natural not, of course).

What it's your opinnion about the things am i trying to get a "more o less good" callibration?, sounds good?
Edited by connector - 12/11/12 at 10:26am
Reply
Reply
post #11 of 44
12/11/12 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

My question is, if am i loosing something for reduce my subcontrast to 128 to get the white clippimg pattern with no clipping or pinking or discoloration?, am i must reduce some red gain and raise up subcontrast? (it's like if i raise the subcontrast i get more contrast and "luminosity" but 128s subcontrast give more "cinema appeal").

No, you are not loosing anything that I am aware of. You comment about differences in contrast is not something I have observed on my plasma - there is no reason it should have this effect AFAIK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

And and in adition, i want to ask you, if i set in all my ADC WB RGB values ​​to 512 (yours 128s), am i improving my color calibration? because, in the AVS 709 "color clipping test" I also see all the bars to the reference color flashing. In Movie mode, the service menu can't give access with "normal via" and that values, except subcontrast keeps their original values without changing nothing (the ADC WB that i'm answeing only affects to dynamic, natural and standar mode). Don't you think that movie mode it'll be near to D65? (standard or Dynamic or Natural not, of course).
What it's your opinnion about the things am i trying to get a "more o less good" callibration?, sounds good?

There is no way to know if you are improving the calibration apart from getting a meter and measuring it. I don't know anything about your LCD - what I can say pretty confidently is that the factory calibration on the D series plasmas, in movie mode (which applies additional corrections to the ADC/WB settings that are not shown in the normal service menu), was generally pretty close to d65 (but could still have some unnatural tinting which varied from unit-to-unit). If you were to go in and reset the factory ADC/WB settings to all 128, odds are you would be pushing the calibration further away from d65. How far? I have no idea, but it probably varies. There simply is no substitute for a proper calibration, so you will have to cross your fingers and rely on your eyes if that's all you have.
Reply
Reply
post #12 of 44
12/12/12 at 2:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

No, you are not loosing anything that I am aware of. You comment about differences in contrast is not something I have observed on my plasma - there is no reason it should have this effect AFAIK.
Thank you for your help much appreciate it, i was a bit lost in all this and you are "illuminating" the way a lot smile.gif. Ok, i don't see nothing loosed with 128 subcontrast but i have to answer you to be sure. but if you change to more than 130 in my tv, it'll have a little pinking and at 100 clipping, with 128 it's all ok, is it normal, don't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

There is no way to know if you are improving the calibration apart from getting a meter and measuring it.
Of course, but i don't have a meter and i can't buy it in short place frown.gif that's because i'm answering here... to try to make an idea to do it well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

I don't know anything about your LCD - what I can say pretty confidently is that the factory calibration on the D series plasmas, in movie mode (which applies additional corrections to the ADC/WB settings that are not shown in the normal service menu), was generally pretty close to d65 (but could still have some unnatural tinting which varied from unit-to-unit). If you were to go in and reset the factory ADC/WB settings to all 128, odds are you would be pushing the calibration further away from d65. How far? I have no idea, but it probably varies. There simply is no substitute for a proper calibration, so you will have to cross your fingers and rely on your eyes if that's all you have.

Oh!, no, when i'm talking about changes in subcontrast and RGB to 512 (yours 128s) it's for Dynamic and Standard modes, i don't touch nothing in movie mode (but subcontrast, when you change subcontrast in ADC WB you are changing it too in movie mode but NOT the RGB values... they are "critical values" and i don't touch them never).

- The question is, if i change standard mode and dynamic mode to subcontrast 128 and RGB to 512, as i made so centered values i think they'll be more callibrated to their own "Dnn" (D75 for example or so), i'll get more "callibrated" that modes inside his own specifications, don't you?. With subcontrast at 128 and RGB at 512 i pass the white clipping pattern and color clipping pattern well.

- About movie mode, if i don't make changes (only the subcontrast that changes with ADC WB for Dynamic and Standard) i'll be very near to D65, don't you?.

- And last question, to get a Gamma nearest to 2.2, do i need to increase my user menu gamma by one point or is it better to leave it at "0"?.

- For the color, the hue and tint i have used the blue filter in the AVS 709 basic pattern to make that all the "blue" bars don't flash (as the pdf instructions said). My result there was, in Movie mode color 48 hue/tint 52/48 and in standard mode it was color 32 hue/tint 48/52, is it "sounds good"? (standard mode has a very low color compared with movie).

Thank you Hiker, with your answer i'll know if i'm in the right way or not.



Thank you very much.
Reply
Reply
post #13 of 44
12/12/12 at 3:32am
Hue and Tint mean the same thing i think. The problem that Avid is trying to say is that your tv is not a plasma and not of the same model the settings that you relate to in the d7000/d8000 thread does not coincide with the tv that you have . I suggest you try the LCD forum and post your questions there. Movie mode and Warm 2 color tone is the closes to the D65 standard for white balance but you might still be far off. Without a meter you cannot accuretly set your white balance so do not tinker with it it will not be accurate.
Reply
Reply
post #14 of 44
12/12/12 at 3:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

Hue and Tint mean the same thing i think. The problem that Avid is trying to say is that your tv is not a plasma and not of the same model the settings that you relate to in the d7000/d8000 thread does not coincide with the tv that you have . I suggest you try the LCD forum and post your questions there. Movie mode and Warm 2 color tone is the closes to the D65 standard for white balance but you might still be far off. Without a meter you cannot accuretly set your white balance so do not tinker with it it will not be accurate.

Ok Hungro, but i'm trying to abstract from technology whith Hiker and, for the moment all it's going very good understanding each other. But don't change the main function of this thread please, Let's Him to answer my questions from the previous post.

Thank you very much.
Reply
Reply
post #15 of 44
12/12/12 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
i'm repeating the questions answered to Hiker to don't loose the real meaning of this thread and to preserve the Thread Quality:
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

No, you are not loosing anything that I am aware of. You comment about differences in contrast is not something I have observed on my plasma - there is no reason it should have this effect AFAIK.
Thank you for your help much appreciate it, i was a bit lost in all this and you are "illuminating" the way a lot smile.gif. Ok, i don't see nothing loosed with 128 subcontrast but i have to answer you to be sure. but if you change to more than 130 in my tv, it'll have a little pinking and at 100 clipping, with 128 it's all ok, is it normal, don't you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

There is no way to know if you are improving the calibration apart from getting a meter and measuring it.
Of course, but i don't have a meter and i can't buy it in short place frown.gif that's because i'm answering here... to try to make an idea to do it well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

I don't know anything about your LCD - what I can say pretty confidently is that the factory calibration on the D series plasmas, in movie mode (which applies additional corrections to the ADC/WB settings that are not shown in the normal service menu), was generally pretty close to d65 (but could still have some unnatural tinting which varied from unit-to-unit). If you were to go in and reset the factory ADC/WB settings to all 128, odds are you would be pushing the calibration further away from d65. How far? I have no idea, but it probably varies. There simply is no substitute for a proper calibration, so you will have to cross your fingers and rely on your eyes if that's all you have.

Oh!, no, when i'm talking about changes in subcontrast and RGB to 512 (yours 128s) it's for Dynamic and Standard modes, i don't touch nothing in movie mode (but subcontrast, when you change subcontrast in ADC WB you are changing it too in movie mode but NOT the RGB values... they are "critical values" and i don't touch them never).

- The question is, if i change standard mode and dynamic mode to subcontrast 128 and RGB to 512, as i made so centered values i think they'll be more callibrated to their own "Dnn" (D75 for example or so), i'll get more "callibrated" that modes inside his own specifications, don't you?. With subcontrast at 128 and RGB at 512 i pass the white clipping pattern and color clipping pattern well.

- About movie mode, if i don't make changes (only the subcontrast that changes with ADC WB for Dynamic and Standard) i'll be very near to D65, don't you?.

- And last question, to get a Gamma nearest to 2.2, do i need to increase my user menu gamma by one point or is it better to leave it at "0"?.

- For the color, the hue and tint i have used the blue filter in the AVS 709 basic pattern to make that all the "blue" bars don't flash (as the pdf instructions said). My result there was, in Movie mode color 48 hue/tint 52/48 and in standard mode it was color 32 hue/tint 48/52, is it "sounds good"? (standard mode has a very low color compared with movie).

Thank you Hiker, with your answer i'll know if i'm in the right way or not.



Thank you very much.
Reply
Reply
post #16 of 44
12/12/12 at 11:12am
You're not making anything better playing around in there.

Basically R, G, and B all have a final contrast value. It's a singular value and it's all that matters.

The subcontrast controls are effectively multipliers.

Red is (50/50) * (130/128) * (95/100) * (128/128) = 0.96

0.96 is the only important number, any way you change the formula to end up with 0.96, you have 0.96 as your final contrast for red. If you turn one up, then you'll have to turn something else down. The end result will be exactly the same.

Everything else is just wasting your time.
Reply
Reply
post #17 of 44
12/12/12 at 11:37am
I don't know connector, from what you are now saying, the ADC system on your LCD is nothing like my plasma (or at least, a lot less like it - and I don't mean the different default values). The current generation plasmas have only ONE set of ADC/WB adjustments. These apply to ALL picture modes. The color tones (with the exception of dynamic) apply additional corrections to the ADC/WB values which cannot be changed (or even viewed) in the normal service menu. I can't really make heads or tails of what you're saying at this point and it's becoming tedious to decipher your posts.

I agree with sotti (and have made the same statement to you and others) - there was never any hope in improving your picture quality/calibration by making changes in the service menu - especially when adjusting by eye and with very little understanding of how the system really functions. Punching in default values is not going to improve on factory settings. If you cannot recover the original factory settings, then I would suggest you just leave all values at their defaults per the service manual (that is what happened to me when Samsung replaced my main board).

WRT the gamma control, a setting of +1 typically results in a reduction in display gamma by 0.1 (on plasmas). I do not know what the default gamma is for your display.
Reply
Reply
post #18 of 44
12/12/12 at 2:01pm
Connector a decrease in the gamma preset from the default value of 0 results in an increase in the gamma for the samsung d series plasma .FYI Not knowing what your actual tv's gamma is at in the default position it's hard to say which setting you would be closer to 2.22. On my display a samsung d6500 plasma a gamma preset of 0 with all user menu values at factory for Movie Mode gives me an average gamma of 2.19 .
Reply
Reply
post #19 of 44
12/13/12 at 2:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You're not making anything better playing around in there.
Basically R, G, and B all have a final contrast value. It's a singular value and it's all that matters.
The subcontrast controls are effectively multipliers.
Red is (50/50) * (130/128) * (95/100) * (128/128) = 0.96
0.96 is the only important number, any way you change the formula to end up with 0.96, you have 0.96 as your final contrast for red. If you turn one up, then you'll have to turn something else down. The end result will be exactly the same.
Everything else is just wasting your time.
Quote:
AVIDHIKER: I don't know connector, from what you are now saying, the ADC system on your LCD is nothing like my plasma (or at least, a lot less like it - and I don't mean the different default values). The current generation plasmas have only ONE set of ADC/WB adjustments. These apply to ALL picture modes. The color tones (with the exception of dynamic) apply additional corrections to the ADC/WB values which cannot be changed (or even viewed) in the normal service menu. I can't really make heads or tails of what you're saying at this point and it's becoming tedious to decipher your posts.

agree with sotti (and have made the same statement to you and others) - there was never any hope in improving your picture quality/calibration by making changes in the service menu - especially when adjusting by eye and with very little understanding of how the system really functions. Punching in default values is not going to improve on factory settings. If you cannot recover the original factory settings, then I would suggest you just leave all values at their defaults per the service manual (that is what happened to me when Samsung replaced my main board).

WRT the gamma control, a setting of +1 typically results in a reduction in display gamma by 0.1 (on plasmas). I do not know what the default gamma is for your display.
Quote:
HUNGRO: IConnector a decrease in the gamma preset from the default value of 0 results in an increase in the gamma for the samsung d series plasma .FYI Not knowing what your actual tv's gamma is at in the default position it's hard to say which setting you would be closer to 2.22. On my display a samsung d6500 plasma a gamma preset of 0 with all user menu values at factory for Movie Mode gives me an average gamma of 2.19 .

Ok, sorry i'm trying to explain my best but even my english it's a bit limited , please excuse me if I created any confusion, I will try to answer each one as best as i can, i'll unify my response and my questions in only one post:

I will try to explain the steps I've done to see if I'm doing it right or I'm wrong so I can correct it with your help:

1) First i have donde an alingment with ADC RESULT with Zoyd's pattern disc (and with his help), using "sheckerboard" 16-255 with a result of subcontrast 132 and rgb 50,50,50. All fine here.

2) After the alingment with "successful", i leave the ADC WB with their optimum default values ONLY for DYNAMIC, NATURAL and STANDARD reported by my Official Samsung's Service Manual for my TV Model. That's because i can't touch nothing except subcontrast in MOVIE mode, so MOVIE mode contninues with their default values. The values are subcontrast 128 and rgb 512,512,512 (in LED TV my range is 0-1023 for RGB in PLASMA is 0 to 255, it's like you set in your plasma all to 128).

3) Take the AVS 709 Blu-Ray in my Samsung Blu-Ray player fixed to YCBCR. I check each pattern from "basics" section:

For Dynamic, Standard, Natural and Movie mode:

- Black clipping: making that bar number 17 continue flashing adjusting the brightness (to mantain a good black level).
- APL clipping: making that ALL the "white" bars flash and with the "black-grey" bars continue flahsing up to bar nº 19 (to mantain a good contrast and brigtness).
- White Clipping: making that ALL the "white" bars flashing (all flash up to 253 with no decoloration or pinking or clipping). Re-check Black clipping and APL clipping to view if there are changes or everything goes well.
- Color Bars: making with the blue filter in STANDARD and MOVIE modes that all the bars keeps flashing equals and adjusting Hue and Sat to do that. In MOVIE Mode the color is 48 with 52/48 and in STANDARD Mode the color is 32 with 48/52 (all dynamic contrast and "enhacements" disabled).
- Color Clipping: making that all the bars up to center number keeps flashning with no clipping in any color.
- After that i don't change in User Menu my WB balance because i don't have a meter and no i couldn't buy it.

That's all.

The Questions after reading the steps that i have said please (becasue maybe i'm doing something wrong):

- Is it correct that method to make the better possible "callibration" without a meter (knowing that is not perfect but is better than do nothing)?
- It will be preserve in MOVIE mode the "nearest to D65"?
- If i change the user menu Gamma to something >0 in movie mode, am i get very far from Gamma 2.2?

Thank you very much Sotti, AvidHiker and Hungro for your attention and patience, i'm waiting for your responses. And again sorry for the confusion that i could have created.
Edited by connector - 12/13/12 at 3:08am
Reply
Reply
post #20 of 44
12/13/12 at 7:39am
Sorry connector, I didn't mean to insult your English skills - I think you've made a very good effort to communicate your problems.

I don't see anything obviously wrong with the calibration steps you list above, it sounds like a good method for adjusting by eye. However, I cannot comment further on the service menu or the possible result of your adjustments on the white balance. I really don't know the answer.

Gamma +1 on my plasma results in a measured gamma of around 2.24 IIRC, so IF your TV is like mine then YES (a setting >0 should get you closer to 2.2).

If you are happy with your picture at this point, STOP WHERE YOU ARE AND JUST ENJOY! There is little more you can do without a meter.
Reply
Reply
post #21 of 44
12/13/12 at 8:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AvidHiker View Post

Sorry connector, I didn't mean to insult your English skills - I think you've made a very good effort to communicate your problems.
I don't see anything obviously wrong with the calibration steps you list above, it sounds like a good method for adjusting by eye. However, I cannot comment further on the service menu or the possible result of your adjustments on the white balance. I really don't know the answer.
Gamma +1 on my plasma results in a measured gamma of around 2.24 IIRC, so IF your TV is like mine then YES (a setting >0 should get you closer to 2.2).
If you are happy with your picture at this point, STOP WHERE YOU ARE AND JUST ENJOY! There is little more you can do without a meter.

Oh Thanks Avidhiker!,
I'm so glad you could understand me well, I was worried that something that i have wrote it was interpreted differently.

Thank you very much for your response and I "remain calm" knowing that, at least, the steps I've been doing after studying a lot this forum have, been serving as "the better possible callibration without a meter".

i'll wait for the answer from Hungro and Sotti, i hope they understand it as you.

Thank you very much again!!! and thank you very much for your help smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #22 of 44
12/13/12 at 10:20am
The steps you have taken with all the adjustments seem ok, the gamma preset thing i couldn't tell you but as I have mentioned it on my tv a gamma setting of 0 with default settings in movie mode gives me an avg of 2.19. I have a meter to check this. I would just stick to setting your user menu parameters don't go back into the service menu it's not necessary, let it be smile.gif, call it a day and enjoy the picture . There is no more that you can do to improve the picture without a meter. That is the key , a meter will give you a properly calibrated image if it's accurate . A disk with patterns and no meter can get you part of the way there.
Reply
Reply
post #23 of 44
12/13/12 at 11:03am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro View Post

The steps you have taken with all the adjustments seem ok, the gamma preset thing i couldn't tell you but as I have mentioned it on my tv a gamma setting of 0 with default settings in movie mode gives me an avg of 2.19. I have a meter to check this. I would just stick to setting your user menu parameters don't go back into the service menu it's not necessary, let it be smile.gif, call it a day and enjoy the picture . There is no more that you can do to improve the picture without a meter. That is the key , a meter will give you a properly calibrated image if it's accurate . A disk with patterns and no meter can get you part of the way there.

Glad to read you Hungro!,
and thank you very much to try to answer and understand me. It relaxes me to know that I've done everything possible to get the basic image quality without a meter.

It has taken me a long time studying the forums and avs 709's pdf, learning from you (and many forum users like Zoyd, PlasmaPZ80, Dough, AvidHiker, Sotti), to the end, with their help, we can confirm that more or less I have approached what had to do to get a minimum of acceptably correct image without a meter.

Thank you very much for your help Hungro and to another members, this is the best enthusiast video and audio forum in the world...smile.gif

NOTE: As soon as i can get a meter i'll let you know... it's difficult now to get it.
Edited by connector - 12/13/12 at 11:09am
Reply
Reply
post #24 of 44
12/13/12 at 4:26pm
Once you get a meter oh boy then the true calibrating starts, can be a big learning curve. Enjoy your tv for now. But for the future don't even go into the service menu you don't need to , just leave it alone smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #25 of 44
12/14/12 at 8:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

You're not making anything better playing around in there.
Basically R, G, and B all have a final contrast value. It's a singular value and it's all that matters.
The subcontrast controls are effectively multipliers.
Red is (50/50) * (130/128) * (95/100) * (128/128) = 0.96
0.96 is the only important number, any way you change the formula to end up with 0.96, you have 0.96 as your final contrast for red. If you turn one up, then you'll have to turn something else down. The end result will be exactly the same.
Everything else is just wasting your time.

It worries me a question Sotti, it's about the computing operation that you put into your post::

You said --> Red is (50/50) * (130/128) * (95/100) * (128/128) = 0.96

If i apply that in my system --> Red would be (50/50) gain? * (132/128) ADC's subcontrasts? * (95/100) user menu contrast? * (512/512) Standard and Dynamic RED ADC WB value? = 0.97

Is it incorrect in my case? those values are my "reset" factory values for Dynamic and Standard mode inside my Service Menu (except subcontrast that applys too to Movie mode). I was thinking that for hiker and hungro said, all the steps that i have done seems ok or would be a "best practices" to try to create a basic but good image quality without a meter. Am i doint something wrong if my result is 0.97?, am i have to lower the ADC RESULT from 132 to 130 to get 0.96?

Thank you and sorry if i can't explain better, i'm trying to do my best.
Reply
Reply
post #26 of 44
12/14/12 at 9:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by connector View Post

It worries me a question Sotti, it's about the computing operation that you put into your post::
You said --> Red is (50/50) * (130/128) * (95/100) * (128/128) = 0.96
If i apply that in my system --> Red would be (50/50) gain? * (132/128) ADC's subcontrasts? * (95/100) user menu contrast? * (512/512) Standard and Dynamic RED ADC WB value? = 0.97
Is it incorrect in my case? those values are my "reset" factory values for Dynamic and Standard mode inside my Service Menu (except subcontrast that applys too to Movie mode). I was thinking that for hiker and hungro said, all the steps that i have done seems ok or would be a "best practices" to try to create a basic but good image quality without a meter. Am i doint something wrong if my result is 0.97?, am i have to lower the ADC RESULT from 132 to 130 to get 0.96?
Thank you and sorry if i can't explain better, i'm trying to do my best.

I was just using those numbers as an example. If that was the absolute right answer, they wouldn't even build the controls in.

My point was that the final output is the only thing that matter, all the controls are in the service menu because for samsungs engineers to tinker with while designing the system and so they can use the same firmware to drive different display panels.

In the end from a calibration standpoint, there is one correct answer and the result will be identical no matter which knobs you turn to get there.
Reply
Reply
post #27 of 44
12/14/12 at 9:56am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I was just using those numbers as an example. If that was the absolute right answer, they wouldn't even build the controls in.
My point was that the final output is the only thing that matter, all the controls are in the service menu because for samsungs engineers to tinker with while designing the system and so they can use the same firmware to drive different display panels.
In the end from a calibration standpoint, there is one correct answer and the result will be identical no matter which knobs you turn to get there.

Oh! ok Sotti, thank you for your help. And, could you tell me what do you think about this, it's that i have said up in a past post but to know your opinnion:

I will try to explain the steps I've done to see if I'm doing it right or I'm wrong so I can correct it with your help:

1) First i have donde an alingment with ADC RESULT with Zoyd's pattern disc (and with his help), using "sheckerboard" 16-255 with a result of subcontrast 132 and rgb 50,50,50. All fine here.

2) After the alingment with "successful", i leave the ADC WB with their optimum default values ONLY for DYNAMIC, NATURAL and STANDARD reported by my Official Samsung's Service Manual for my TV Model. That's because i can't touch nothing except subcontrast in MOVIE mode, so MOVIE mode contninues with their default values. The values are subcontrast 128 and rgb 512,512,512 (in LED TV my range is 0-1023 for RGB in PLASMA is 0 to 255, it's like you set in your plasma all to 128).

3) Take the AVS 709 Blu-Ray in my Samsung Blu-Ray player fixed to YCBCR. I check each pattern from "basics" section:

For Dynamic, Standard, Natural and Movie mode:

- Black clipping: making that bar number 17 continue flashing adjusting the brightness (to mantain a good black level).
- APL clipping: making that ALL the "white" bars flash and with the "black-grey" bars continue flahsing up to bar nº 19 (to mantain a good contrast and brigtness).
- White Clipping: making that ALL the "white" bars flashing (all flash up to 253 with no decoloration or pinking or clipping). Re-check Black clipping and APL clipping to view if there are changes or everything goes well.
- Color Bars: making with the blue filter in STANDARD and MOVIE modes that all the bars keeps flashing equals and adjusting Hue and Sat to do that. In MOVIE Mode the color is 48 with 52/48 and in STANDARD Mode the color is 32 with 48/52 (all dynamic contrast and "enhacements" disabled).
- Color Clipping: making that all the bars up to center number keeps flashning with no clipping in any color.
- After that i don't change in User Menu my WB balance because i don't have a meter and no i couldn't buy it.

That's all.

The Questions after reading the steps that i have said please (becasue maybe i'm doing something wrong):

- Is it correct that method to make the better possible "callibration" without a meter (knowing that is not perfect but is better than do nothing)?
- It will be preserve in MOVIE mode the "nearest to D65"?
- If i change the user menu Gamma to something >0 in movie mode, am i get very far from Gamma 2.2?


Thank you Sotti.
Edited by connector - 12/14/12 at 11:22am
Reply
Reply
post #28 of 44
12/14/12 at 11:34am
1) Yes it sounds like you've done as much as you can.
2) probably, but that's just a guess.
3) I have no idea, I'd have to measure.
Reply
Reply
post #29 of 44
12/15/12 at 12:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

1) Yes it sounds like you've done as much as you can.
2) probably, but that's just a guess.
3) I have no idea, I'd have to measure.

Thank you Sotti, i have learned a lot with this. Thank you very much to you and to another forum members that with effort and patience have helped me make it possible. Thank you very much again.
Reply
Reply
post #30 of 44
12/15/12 at 12:07pm
Thread Starter 
OOOpsss...
i have founded in my Service Manual's a section that indicates this:

"

You can adjust the white ratio in factory mode (1:Calibration, 3:White-Balance).
1.
Since the adjustment value and the data value vary depending on the input source, you have to adjust these in CVBS,
2.
Component 1 and HDMI 1 modes.The optimal values for each mode are configured by default. (Refer to Table 1, 2)


P-MODE: HDMI 720P

ADJUSTMENT COORDINATE:

H/L: x272 y278 Y (Luminance): SUB_CT:130
L/L: x272 y278 Y (Luminance): SUB_CT:130 13.0cdm2 (3.8Ft)

T(K) + MPCD: 12,000(+-0)

ADJUSTMENT SPECIFICATION:

White Balance: High Light (+-1) Low Light (+-3)
Luminance: High Light (Don't Care) Low Light (+-0.2FT/l)
"

It's for adjust the WB Balance after the factory reset values, that have to be made with an specific Equipment.

I'm not going to made nothing with this because i dont' have a meter, but look at "Adjustment Coordinate" and "Luminance" indicates SUB_CT:130:

1) is it 130 the subcontrast that i have to set for my optimum settings?.
2) Is it the result of a callibration between ADC RESULT (subcontrast 132) and ADC WB (subcontrast 128) that results in 130?... (i need help to know if i have to leave it like i have now (the factory defaults ADC RESULT 132 and ADC WB 128) or i have to raise my ADC WB subcontrast to 130)

Thanks for your support Sotti, Hiker, Hungro, could you please tell me what am i have to do?.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Display Calibration

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › Subcontrast question - Newbie Section "The Basics" without a meter