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Subwoofer Ownership – Your Path to Satisfaction - Page 8

post #211 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

A mini triax. Nice! So right now you have dual mal-x, correct?

Oh yeah, I voted.

Yes along with the BASSISS, but they're at my past rental house due to be picked up next week or so.(long story) Maybe I ought to consider a 18” three driver option instead?mmm I have other subs so I’m sitting fine for now. Thanks for voting pop.
post #212 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

Yes along with the BASSISS, but they're at my past rental house due to be picked up next week or so.(long story) Maybe I ought to consider a 18” three driver option instead?mmm I have other subs so I’m sitting fine for now. Thanks for voting pop.

How about three of whatever is on your avatar!
post #213 of 663
No that’s a old PB12 ULTRA driver. After digging around the 18 X is out... it would be to big anyway. Plus I'm not going to buy secondhand. I have been wanting to do something with the Ultimax http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-512 anyway. This is always subject to change of course. What say you?
post #214 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Is this thread dead now?

No looks like some members are going with some nice sw purchases whether DIY or ID options... imo
post #215 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

No looks like some members are going with some nice sw purchases whether DIY or ID options... imo

Its kind of a bummer the retail side can't keep up. The only subs that I think anyone would want from retail are velodyne, JL.and paradigm. And even then most feel those are too expensive for what you get.
post #216 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Its kind of a bummer the retail side can't keep up. The only subs that I think anyone would want from retail are velodyne, JL.and paradigm. And even then most feel those are too expensive for what you get.

Where is the classification line of "retail"?
post #217 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Where is the classification line of "retail"?

Sorry meant brick and mortar would be a better term. I referring to None internet Direct manufactures. Sense whee not in the DIY forum retail usual means brick and mortar sense most the discussion is about ID subs.
Edited by oneeyeblind - 6/13/13 at 12:52pm
post #218 of 663
My timeline...

1993 Polk PSW300
1995 Three Polk PSW650
2000 Sunfire True Subwoofer MK II
2012 Definitive Technology Supercube 6000
2013 Dayton Audio DIY RSS315HF-4 12" subwoofer (Zaph Audio design)
2013 Dayton Audio DIY RSS390HO-4 15" subwoofer (based on Zaph Audio design)

My first venture into subwoofers was the Polk PSW300. It was a bandpass design. A real bad bandpass design. The subwoofer could not go low (40Hz on a windy day) and definitely could not go loud... But it worked with my TV.

In 1995, I had a dedicated HT room. I got three Polk PSW650s. One in the front wall and the other two on opposite side walls. The three subs delivered a lot of tight bass. They were a dual 10" vented driver design. But it did not go below 30-35Hz..

About 2000 I got a Sunfire True Subwoofer MK II. This used on of Bob Carver's tracking transformerless 2700-watt amps. It had a 10" driver and a 10" passive radiator in a 12" cube. This sub could move a LOT of air. Unfortunately, there were a few issues.
1. the amp kept failing... three times overall. This is a known issue with the rail amps.
2. it kept on developing the dreaded 60Hz hum that afflicts the subs
3. It moved a lot of air but it sounded like crap. The bass went low but it was boomy and flabby.

After giving up on the Sunfire, I decided to buy the Definitive Technology SuperCube 6000. When properly placed, this sub performed adequately. It has a 1700-amp driving a 9" driver with two 10" radiators. I figured that the overall cone area would be moving enough air to give me decent bass. It did go quite low, my guess about 28-30Hz. But being only 9", the driver had limited excursion, which meant limited volume. The amp would limit the output when it sensed the driver was being over driven. So I got low bass, but not loud bass.

So i learned my lessons. You want low bass? You gotta get bigger drivers. You want loud bass? You gotta get bigger drivers with more power. You want tighter bass? Sealed subs is the answer.

So I ended up buying and building a couple of DIY subs. My first was the Dayton 12" RSS315HF-4. This driver is designed for accurate and tight bass. It is optimal in a sealed 18" cube and reaches maximum volume with 400-watts. The second sub was the Dayton 15" RSS390HO-4 with a 1,000-watt amp. This sub is designed for smaller cabinets, trading off bass extension. The good thing is that both are optimal in identical 18" cabinets, the only difference is the driver size and the amps. They look exactly alike when the grills are on.

I have finally reached bass nirvana.The subs easily go down to 25Hz. The bass output is mind-blowing. Stuff is rattling all over the room, the walls vibrate. The wife is mad across the house. The neighbors swear to me they can feel the bass in their homes (just kidding... but they can hear it)

I am now all gung ho about DIY subs... I was given a Polk 12" MM1240SVC car subwoofer. i am now building a cabinet for it. This sub will be setup in my living room with bookshelf speakers. Since they are maple veneered, I am going to match them. I want to get a table saw. I am going through MDF, wood glue and saw blades like mad. The yard is full of MDF sawdust. It blows around like a whirlwind on windy days.

I have gone off the deep end.... bwah! ha! ha!


Things i have learned...
For DIYers...
Measure once, cut three times... It should be the other way around.
Painting is a pain. Veneer is the way to go... so much easier.
If you use primer, do NOT use water based primers with solvent paint.
Make sure you use Gorilla glue when setting the T-nuts in the baffles for the mounting bolts.
Make the driver cut-outs are a tad bigger to compensate for painting... Otherwise the driver will not fit.
Measure the bolt hole diameters before drilling the holes... Bolts in one 12" sub may not work with another.
Cut the larger panels for the cabinet a bit oversized. It is easier to trim the excess off than to try and fill in shallow areas.

For bass nuts...
Sealed subs is the way to go. vented may go lower, but it just does not sound as tight.
you want low bass? you need a big driver... A 12" driver can move about 0.02 cubic feet of air at maximum extension... not much. A 15" driver can move 0.05 cubic feet of air at maximum extension. That's a lot more air displacement.
Edited by Jon S - 6/13/13 at 4:53pm
post #219 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by oneeyeblind View Post

Its kind of a bummer the retail side can't keep up. The only subs that I think anyone would want from retail are velodyne, JL.and paradigm. And even then most feel those are too expensive for what you get.

+1
Edited by steve nn - 6/14/13 at 3:18am
post #220 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post

No that’s a old PB12 ULTRA driver. After digging around the 18 X is out... it would be to big anyway. Plus I'm not going to buy secondhand. I have been wanting to do something with the Ultimax http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=295-512 anyway. This is always subject to change of course. What say you?

I think the ultimax is a real looker and preformer. Is box size the reason you want to build something with the 12's vs the 15's? Let us know when you're ready to make some saw dust!
post #221 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Ok, I will check out that thread in more detail as I had just skimmed over it before. I'm excited now and it seems so far away (cant rationalize sooner with a wedding this fall). Time flies though and perhaps a blessing in disguise as the time allows me to get lots of studying in. Thanks again.

To help with your research. biggrin.gif

A response graph showing the OS digging down to single digits: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1247005/official-jtr-orbit-shifter-subwoofer-thread/300_100#post_19790204

Good brief explination of a folded vs. tapped horn: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1247005/official-jtr-orbit-shifter-subwoofer-thread/600_100#post_23423266
post #222 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

I think the ultimax is a real looker and preformer. Is box size the reason you want to build something with the 12's vs the 15's? Let us know when you're ready to make some saw dust!


Yes that’s exactly my thinking. Not wanting to do anything to exotic driver or amp wise. It’s not meant to be a three 12” baby clone per say, that would drive the cost.. just a simple lookalike on the smaller side to make it more manageable.
post #223 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

To help with your research. biggrin.gif

A response graph showing the OS digging down to single digits: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1247005/official-jtr-orbit-shifter-subwoofer-thread/300_100#post_19790204

Good brief explination of a folded vs. tapped horn: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1247005/official-jtr-orbit-shifter-subwoofer-thread/600_100#post_23423266

That is correct except with the OS it will not keep that response to reference levels. It will depend on the room. Running compression sweeps you will see a point where under the horn loading will start to compress. When people say a OS hits 125 dBs it is within the horn loading frequencies and not down low. Again, this is room dependent and as that 18 inch driver is capable al drivers have their limits. Under 20hz the OS is a single 18(high x-max) sealed subwoofer.
post #224 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

That is correct except with the OS it will not keep that response to reference levels. It will depend on the room. Running compression sweeps you will see a point where under the horn loading will start to compress. When people say a OS hits 125 dBs it is within the horn loading frequencies and not down low. Again, this is room dependent and as that 18 inch driver is capable al drivers have their limits. Under 20hz the OS is a single 18(high x-max) sealed subwoofer.
Perhaps the ultimate setup would be 2 OS's and 2 Submersives! Or a couple DIY 18 sealed for single digit extension?
post #225 of 663
Well, you figure out what your goals are and go from there. You can get single digits in many ways and the easiest is just sealed. To get meaningful single digit response you need multiple sealed subs and usually that means the upper frequencies are already covered. I mean lets assume a single OS can reach reference and a single S2 can reach reference. If the OS can play 125 dBs from 22hz and up you would have 10 dBs of headroom. The CapS2 could play 119 dBs and have 4 dBs of headroom. Both can play reference from 22hz and up cleanly(assuming it can within this room). The difference is now the OS can play under 20hz at 111-113 dBs and the capS2 can still play 119 dBs. The Cap S2 has the full bandwidth covered at reference and the OS does not. I guess if one needs 120 + dBs above 20hz then this is where the OS shines, loud music.

Here is a DIY setup in action at reference, sorry just meter readings without correction.

How do I get a video in here without a link, I just want the video to be played right here.
Edited by MKtheater - 6/14/13 at 10:16am
post #226 of 663
Timeline:
1999: Yamaha 12” sub
2006: ED A5-350
2010: SubM
2011: SubMx2
2013: SubM x 2 + 2 x DIY dual opposed 18”

My subwoofer journey started with a Yamaha sub, a 12” down firing ported design. It gave me my first experience of port chaffing. When I relocated to the USA I bought an ED A5-350. My first taste or what a real sub can do. Luckily no amp issues with the ED sub. About 3 years ago I dipped my toes into the sealed configuration and bought a submersive HP. From there my wife will tell you it went downhill. Shortly after the first SubM I bought a second and recently acquired 2 x DIY Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" in dual opposed format. So in total 4 subs, 8 drivers. I have a DSpeaker 2.0 dual core but the 2011 model doesn’t seem to play nicely with the DIY subs so currently trying the Behringer NU 6000DSP.
post #227 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, you figure out what your goals are and go from there. You can get single digits in many ways and the easiest is just sealed. To get meaningful single digit response you need multiple sealed subs and usually that means the upper frequencies are already covered. I mean lets assume a single OS can reach reference and a single S2 can reach reference. If the OS can play 125 dBs from 22hz and up you would have 10 dBs of headroom. The CapS2 could play 119 dBs and have 4 dBs of headroom. Both can play reference from 22hz and up cleanly(assuming it can within this room). The difference is now the OS can play under 20hz at 111-113 dBs and the capS2 can still play 119 dBs. The Cap S2 has the full bandwidth covered at reference and the OS does not. I guess if one needs 120 + dBs above 20hz then this is where the OS shines, loud music.

Here is a DIY setup in action at reference, sorry just meter readings without correction.

How do I get a video in here without a link, I just want the video to be played right here.

I can't say at this point exactly what my goals are because I don't know yet to be honest. What I do know is my intentions are not to compromise and settle on a lesser purchase only to wonder if and be unsatisfied in the future. My single HSU sub is the only real subwoofer I have owned. Now having the opportunity to demo dual Orbit Shifters and dual Submersives will help. Now if I can find a dual S2 setup on close then I can sample all and make my choice. With the room gain kept in mind. On a side note when I make the purchase I will not be in my permanent place if residence as the fiancé and I are planning on buying a home in about 3 yrs. so a small inkling of me is hoping the OS's are not my favorite due to size. But that will not stop me I'd they are. smile.gif
post #228 of 663
To put it simple the only time you would notice a difference between the OS and CaPS2 is when playing above the limits of the CapS2 above 20hz or playing above the limits of the OS below 20hz. Usually people play loud 20hz and above stuff and notice the OS advantage. What happens many times is someone will play reference movies and the sub needs a 105 dBs at 10hz and both subs can do that so they don't notice a difference for movies but then they will crank up some music and say wow, feel that OS. If you reach the limits of either you will notice the differences. If you have a flat response there should be no difference until the limits are approached. With music the OS wins and with movies the CapS2 wins, assuming reference level playback levels. Dual CapS2s would cover any movie at any times and dual OS could reach it's limits down low with certain movies but have headroom to spare above. So you need to hear a system that if flat to 5hz all the way to 120 dBs and then hear the same stuff on an OS and see if you like something better than the other, then just pick what you prefer. I can tell you 125 dBs from 20hz and up is awesome but 125 dBs at 10hz is also awesome.
post #229 of 663
post #230 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

To put it simple the only time you would notice a difference between the OS and CaPS2 is when playing above the limits of the CapS2 above 20hz or playing above the limits of the OS below 20hz. Usually people play loud 20hz and above stuff and notice the OS advantage. What happens many times is someone will play reference movies and the sub needs a 105 dBs at 10hz and both subs can do that so they don't notice a difference for movies but then they will crank up some music and say wow, feel that OS. If you reach the limits of either you will notice the differences. If you have a flat response there should be no difference until the limits are approached. With music the OS wins and with movies the CapS2 wins, assuming reference level playback levels. Dual CapS2s would cover any movie at any times and dual OS could reach it's limits down low with certain movies but have headroom to spare above. So you need to hear a system that if flat to 5hz all the way to 120 dBs and then hear the same stuff on an OS and see if you like something better than the other, then just pick what you prefer. I can tell you 125 dBs from 20hz and up is awesome but 125 dBs at 10hz is also awesome.

That is what exactly is going to happen. Even with you giving him the play by play warning, I'd still put money on the fact that he will find the OS more impressive because of the headroom in the audible fq range.

How many S2's do you think it would take to get the same in room response at 5Hz that you have now? I haven't done the math, 4 maybe? Or does the S2 have a limiter built in similar to the SubM? I don't know that either...

I LOVE my sealed system, but anyone chasing any appreciable single digit response going any route "other than" DIY is throwing away their money IMHO.
post #231 of 663
Well, that is just it, it depends on the goals. First figure out what kind of theater you are building and what kind of spl you want. Do you want everything on the disc or do you want to cut it off at some point. You won't know until it is tried properly. Throwing many sealed subs in a room won't do it, you need a boost down low for that to be realized. After that then one can truly decide if they want that or not as compared to 6 dBs more at the top. This means over reference at the top and playing the subs very hot. I have tried all the above.
post #232 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

Well, that is just it, it depends on the goals. First figure out what kind of theater you are building and what kind of spl you want. Do you want everything on the disc or do you want to cut it off at some point. You won't know until it is tried properly. Throwing many sealed subs in a room won't do it, you need a boost down low for that to be realized. After that then one can truly decide if they want that or not as compared to 6 dBs more at the top. This means over reference at the top and playing the subs very hot. I have tried all the above.

Well the quad Submersives in a smaller room will give me a taste of flat down low low. But don't they roll at 7hz? Will I be missing much if that's true ?
post #233 of 663
You will need a LT boost still.
post #234 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

You will need a LT boost still.




. Not the cheapest rout by far and it’s very limited, but as far as extending I really like the BASSISS. Night and day difference when applied. http://www.marchandelec.com/wm8.html
post #235 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

My timeline...

1993 Polk PSW300
1995 Three Polk PSW650
2000 Sunfire True Subwoofer MK II
2012 Definitive Technology Supercube 6000
2013 Dayton Audio DIY RSS315HF-4 12" subwoofer (Zaph Audio design)
2013 Dayton Audio DIY RSS390HO-4 15" subwoofer (based on Zaph Audio design)

My first venture into subwoofers was the Polk PSW300. It was a bandpass design. A real bad bandpass design. The subwoofer could not go low (40Hz on a windy day) and definitely could not go loud... But it worked with my TV.

In 1995, I had a dedicated HT room. I got three Polk PSW650s. One in the front wall and the other two on opposite side walls. The three subs delivered a lot of tight bass. They were a dual 10" vented driver design. But it did not go below 30-35Hz..

About 2000 I got a Sunfire True Subwoofer MK II. This used on of Bob Carver's tracking transformerless 2700-watt amps. It had a 10" driver and a 10" passive radiator in a 12" cube. This sub could move a LOT of air. Unfortunately, there were a few issues.
1. the amp kept failing... three times overall. This is a known issue with the rail amps.
2. it kept on developing the dreaded 60Hz hum that afflicts the subs
3. It moved a lot of air but it sounded like crap. The bass went low but it was boomy and flabby.

After giving up on the Sunfire, I decided to buy the Definitive Technology SuperCube 6000. When properly placed, this sub performed adequately. It has a 1700-amp driving a 9" driver with two 10" radiators. I figured that the overall cone area would be moving enough air to give me decent bass. It did go quite low, my guess about 28-30Hz. But being only 9", the driver had limited excursion, which meant limited volume. The amp would limit the output when it sensed the driver was being over driven. So I got low bass, but not loud bass.

So i learned my lessons. You want low bass? You gotta get bigger drivers. You want loud bass? You gotta get bigger drivers with more power. You want tighter bass? Sealed subs is the answer.

So I ended up buying and building a couple of DIY subs. My first was the Dayton 12" RSS315HF-4. This driver is designed for accurate and tight bass. It is optimal in a sealed 18" cube and reaches maximum volume with 400-watts. The second sub was the Dayton 15" RSS390HO-4 with a 1,000-watt amp. This sub is designed for smaller cabinets, trading off bass extension. The good thing is that both are optimal in identical 18" cabinets, the only difference is the driver size and the amps. They look exactly alike when the grills are on.

Nice write up man! I don't necessarily agree with the comment in bold, but I understand everyone has different personal experiences. I like to reference the KC Blind Subwoofer Shootout that Archaea hosted in 2012. Many people started the day with design preferences/bias, but left with a different "tune."

I believe any configuration will sound good if designed properly and, as evident by the shootout I mention above...well, just check out the thread for yourself! biggrin.gif

Also keep in mind that your room acoustics are most likely a very large part of the equation that is giving you less than satisfying results from vented/ported designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

I have finally reached bass nirvana.The subs easily go down to 25Hz. The bass output is mind-blowing. Stuff is rattling all over the room, the walls vibrate. The wife is mad across the house. The neighbors swear to me they can feel the bass in their homes (just kidding... but they can hear it)

I am now all gung ho about DIY subs... I was given a Polk 12" MM1240SVC car subwoofer. i am now building a cabinet for it. This sub will be setup in my living room with bookshelf speakers. Since they are maple veneered, I am going to match them. I want to get a table saw. I am going through MDF, wood glue and saw blades like mad. The yard is full of MDF sawdust. It blows around like a whirlwind on windy days.

I have gone off the deep end.... bwah! ha! ha!

Welcome to DIY my friend, it's addicting for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

Things i have learned...
For DIYers...
Measure once, cut three times... It should be the other way around.
Painting is a pain. Veneer is the way to go... so much easier.
If you use primer, do NOT use water based primers with solvent paint.
Make sure you use Gorilla glue when setting the T-nuts in the baffles for the mounting bolts.
Make the driver cut-outs are a tad bigger to compensate for painting... Otherwise the driver will not fit.
Measure the bolt hole diameters before drilling the holes... Bolts in one 12" sub may not work with another.
Cut the larger panels for the cabinet a bit oversized. It is easier to trim the excess off than to try and fill in shallow areas.

Haahah, I still have trouble with this one. I've built about 10 boxes over the past year and even when I really think I have everything methodically thought out... Always end up messing something up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon S View Post

For bass nuts...
Sealed subs is the way to go. vented may go lower, but it just does not sound as tight.
you want low bass? you need a big driver... A 12" driver can move about 0.02 cubic feet of air at maximum extension... not much. A 15" driver can move 0.05 cubic feet of air at maximum extension. That's a lot more air displacement.

Meh, I made my point on the "tight" comment above, but I just want to make another point of clarification.

Volume displacement (vd) is a product of surface area (sd) x linear excursion (xmax). It's not uncommon for a 12" sub to have a much higher xmax, which will make up for it's lack of sd, which will level the playing field from a vd standpoint.
Edited by popalock - 6/14/13 at 4:04pm
post #236 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nb67 View Post

Timeline:
1999: Yamaha 12” sub
2006: ED A5-350
2010: SubM
2011: SubMx2
2013: SubM x 2 + 2 x DIY dual opposed 18”

My subwoofer journey started with a Yamaha sub, a 12” down firing ported design. It gave me my first experience of port chaffing. When I relocated to the USA I bought an ED A5-350. My first taste or what a real sub can do. Luckily no amp issues with the ED sub. About 3 years ago I dipped my toes into the sealed configuration and bought a submersive HP. From there my wife will tell you it went downhill. Shortly after the first SubM I bought a second and recently acquired 2 x DIY Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" in dual opposed format. So in total 4 subs, 8 drivers. I have a DSpeaker 2.0 dual core but the 2011 model doesn’t seem to play nicely with the DIY subs so currently trying the Behringer NU 6000DSP.

Sick setup right there! I think I might know the back story behind you scooping up those HO's...lol
post #237 of 663
Hey pop, would you give me your true assessment of the drivers I’m considering regards to the the three 12” config I’m considering regarding the the perimeters I’m suggesting.
post #238 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve nn View Post






. Not the cheapest rout by far and it’s very limited, but as far as extending I really like the BASSISS. Night and day difference when applied. http://www.marchandelec.com/wm8.html

How exactly does something like this work? I understand the eq theory. But extending the ULF's? Does it communicate with the amplifier and essentially boost the amp in that range?
post #239 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Sick setup right there! I think I might know the back story behind you scooping up those HO's...lol

In the town of Fontana of all places, there is some serious competition when it comes to LFE. Within a 2 mile radius of me there are now 3 guys who have really good systems that I know of. I thought 1 SubM would do it but when I visited one of them I realized that even 4 Subm’s would only put me in their ballpark. Now there is crazy talk of multiple G horns. I hate them rolleyes.gif
post #240 of 663
It is not a competition BUT you could always just build a theater the size of a closet and throw everything in there! I don't have nearly the displacement of some of the guys but my room is a sealed chamber with lots of concrete so it evens the field!
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