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Subwoofer Ownership – Your Path to Satisfaction - Page 14

post #391 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cvetan1 View Post

Dual Cap S1's do it for me. biggrin.gif

Sorry, we got a bit side tracked from the OT. Cvetan1, what is your journey? How did you end up with the S1's? What are your previous purchases if you don't mind me asking! I've linked your name to your above post, please edit that one if possible that way if people click on your name it will go to the correct post.
Edited by popalock - 7/16/13 at 4:49am
post #392 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

My first sub was a DefTech ProSub 200TL: 250W, 18-150Hz. Nice sub.

When I had a chance to demo an Energy S10.3 - 200W RMS, 21Hz @ -3dB - I was surprised at how much deeper it went (and how much more cleanly it played).

I contacted DefTech, and found out that the 200TL was actually rated to 26Hz @ -3dB. That explained it.

I'm putting you down as currently owning the ProSub 200TL until you update your post with your journey...lol
post #393 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock 
I'm putting you down as currently owning the ProSub 200TL until you update your post with your journey...lol
Noooooooo!!!! eek.gif

Okay, here goes:

Timeline
2002 - Definitive Technology ProSub 200TL
2008 (early) - SVS PB10-NSD
2008 (late) - SVS PB12-NSD
2011: Dual ChaseHT SS-18.1 passive subs w/ Dayton SA1000 amp

About My Journey
I got my first real pair of speakers - Paradigm 7se's - in the mid- to late-'80s and kept them for ~20 years. Great speakers. They were part of my first attempt at an HT set-up in the late '90s (which included a 27" RCA tube TV, a VCR and a Denon stereo receiver).

When my wife and I bought our first house - and after having come to the conclusion that I wanted a sub - I added the DefTech sub. The added extension was great! With a finished basement in the plans in 2008 - and after having demo'd an Energy S10.3 in my set-up and coming to the realization that the ProSub was relatively lacking - I decided to get a highly-rated PB10-NSD. Wow, what a step up in subwooferage! But when I took it to my buddy's place and A/B'd it against his Paradigm PW-2200 in his basement HT, I realized that I'd need more output to compensate for moving from a main-floor set-up to a basement set-up. And, so, the PB12-NSD came along.

It was a great sub for a little over two years, at which point I'd discovered the joy of duals, and also decided that the PB12 wasn't giving me everything I was looking for: I wanted a bit more output, smoother FR, and a tighter sound for music. I almost ended up with dual Rythmik F15s, but a three-month back-order - and an audition of my buddy's ChaseHT CS-18.1s - veered me toward the SS-18.1s.

Although they're not perfect, they are very good, and they took care of the things I wanted taken care of (output, FR, tighter sound).

Over the years, I've also had the chance to demo a number of other subs, including the Energy S10.3; my buddy's Paradigm PW-2200, AV123 MFW-15 and Paradigm Servo-15 v1; and an acquaintance's Paradigm Servo-15 v2 and SUB 25.

I've come to appreciate what better sound sounds like and what better performance feels like. It sounds and feels pretty good. cool.gif

Lessons Learned / Advice
- Do your research. Try to learn what the numbers mean.
- Be prepared to spend a bit more, if you can, to get something better. And by "better", I don't mean "audiophile pretentious" better - I just mean something that doesn't leave you wishing you'd (saved up and) spent a bit more up front to get what you really wanted. If nothing else, you'll feel the need to upgrade less often, which may save you more in the long run.
- Don't get obsessive with your set-up: Calibrate, tweak and enjoy. If it sounds good, leave it alone. When it stops sounding good, that's the time to "fix what's broke".

- THE END -

smile.gif
post #394 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

James, I own a pair of Definitive 8060 towers. The value they give is unquestionable. I would actually like to keep them for the non main dedicated setup such as a bedroom or a smaller tv setup with just 2 channel. But I am not full of money and need to sell to get to my goal of JTR 212 Noesis speakers. I have continually repeated myself on the DT forums that I really like these speakers. But DT claims they are enough to where you don't need a separate sub or subs. The bass the give is good as well IMO opinion. But as we continually see the graphs on the Master bass movie list thread there is lots of action in the 20-30 hz range. Now you can't claim you don't need a separate sub when your product can't accurately replicate the audio track on the disc. For music yes they are fine. But you can't just decide a 35hz rolloff is adequate bass. Most people will never know and care because what they do hear is good and still lots of action from 35-70 hz. But one day when they learn more they will think to themselves, "Hey, when I bought these the spec sheet said down to 18hz and I expected action there. Not a -40db point."

Your post has nothing to do with what I've said. I never said or implied that you don't need a subwoofer with any definitive loudspeakers...although some would be quite happy with them, alone, as there are indeed subwoofers available that actually output less bass than they do. I never said I decided that 35hz rolloff is adequate bass. I have made my point quite clearly. I would suggest you just move on, buy your JTRs (that you'll also need a sub for) and rid yourself of the DTs. I'm certain you will be much happier. I am out of here. Please enjoy the thread as it was intended.

James
post #395 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

I'd heard of the 10 dB point...
There are three standards in common use by the AES/EIA. One is +/-3dB, which is accepted as a small enough variation in response that it's considered the benchmark for being 'flat'. The second is +/-6dB, considered the minimum acceptable broadband response variation. The third is -10dB, considered the limit of useful response, at either end of the spectrum. In practice running a sub to its -10dB frequency is a very bad idea. If you EQ the sub to run flat to that frequency you're putting in ten times the power that it requires at 0dB transfer function, so you run the risk of a blown voice coil, and amplifier clipping. Also, below the -6dB frequency driver excursion skyrockets, in both sealed and vented alignments, so if you don't blow the coil and clip the amp you still at the very least run the risk of very high THD, if not mechanical damage. Sub amps/active EQs should be high passed no lower than the -6dB frequency, to prevent those risks, but one can hardly do so when the sub manufacturer doesn't tell you what the -6dB frequency is, or even worse, leads one to believe that they are functional to frequencies well below where they should be used.
post #396 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Your post has nothing to do with what I've said. I never said or implied that you don't need a subwoofer with any definitive loudspeakers...although some would be quite happy with them, alone, as there are indeed subwoofers available that actually output less bass than they do. I never said I decided that 35hz rolloff is adequate bass. I have made my point quite clearly. I would suggest you just move on, buy your JTRs (that you'll also need a sub for) and rid yourself of the DTs. I'm certain you will be much happier. I am out of here. Please enjoy the thread as it was intended.

James

Yeah, we'll all move on. jlp is going to be grinning from ear to ear when he pulls the trigger on his quad Orbit Shifters!

tongue.gif
post #397 of 663
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Noooooooo!!!! eek.gif

Okay, here goes:

I've come to appreciate what better sound sounds like and what better performance feels like. It sounds and feels pretty good. cool.gif
Nice!

Consolidated list updated. Didn't want to leave you hanging. biggrin.gif

List is getting close to 50 contributors. Great stuff.

Maybe we can talk Bill into letting us know what he has in his living room.
post #398 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock 
Consolidated list updated. Didn't want to leave you hanging. biggrin.gif
Thanks. Nice motivation job, BTW... wink.gifsmile.gif
post #399 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Maybe we can talk Bill into letting us know what he has in his living room.
Nothing off the shelf. biggrin.gif
post #400 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Yeah, we'll all move on. jlp is going to be grinning from ear to ear when he pulls the trigger on his quad Orbit Shifters!

tongue.gif

Damn Pop! I did just get a raise but it aint gonna cover quad shifters! BTW what ever happened to the ability to civil debate without getting emotionally involved?
You know as my research and learning continues I find myself trying to lean towards the smaller footprint S2's or some DIY SI 18's (don't really want to do my first DIY as my intended forever and all sub setup but I will continue to learn) or something comparable. But I just have a sneaking suspicion that when I finally get to hear RMK's Shifters I am gonna be like, "well thats decided!." I just sigh at the thought of moving them into a rental! Not for damage control reasons but space. They are big yes, but it's not like they are unreasonable. 50x22x35 (LFU version).

Question for you Bill if you make it back this way today. What would be the closest to a wall or corner one could 'optimally place' the OS's? Still about 12 inches at least or is it different with the horn design? Hopefully you could place them right on the front wall and not get any muddy or boomy sound? Wishful thinking?

Happy day all!!!biggrin.gif
post #401 of 663
Also Bill, what are your thoughts on the sonic signature of different bass designs? I have heard Archea say he likes the ported sound best, we know MKtheater is all sealed (perhaps for extension reasons).
If I have identical numbers on a horn design and multiple sealed will they have a slight different sound? Or do you feel bass is bass?
post #402 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Well the quad Submersives in a smaller room will give me a taste of flat down low low. But don't they roll at 7hz? Will I be missing much if that's true ?

I have 4 SubMersives in 3800cf and am down 4db at 5hz with no EQ.
post #403 of 663
Quote:
Question for you Bill if you make it back this way today. What would be the closest to a wall or corner one could 'optimally place' the OS's?
Where they work best. wink.gif
Quote:
If I have identical numbers on a horn design and multiple sealed will they have a slight different sound? Or do you feel bass is bass?
If they measure the same they'll sound the same. That's not to say that every alignment doesn't have its own characteristics, but that identical response will be heard identically. I don't favor one alignment over another, I use what works for the desired application.
post #404 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I have 4 SubMersives in 3800cf and am down 4db at 5hz with no EQ.

Yea, mark addressed the 7hz filter theory a few weeks ago. It's non existent but a rumor started because of a dip on I believe the KC sub testing. Can't remember if they said it was manually applied or just room response. Nonetheless Mark cleared up any confusion.
post #405 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Noooooooo!!!! eek.gif

Okay, here goes:

Timeline
2002 - Definitive Technology ProSub 200TL
2008 (early) - SVS PB10-NSD
2008 (late) - SVS PB12-NSD
2011: Dual ChaseHT SS-18.1 passive subs w/ Dayton SA1000 amp

About My Journey
I got my first real pair of speakers - Paradigm 7se's - in the mid- to late-'80s and kept them for ~20 years. Great speakers. They were part of my first attempt at an HT set-up in the late '90s (which included a 27" RCA tube TV, a VCR and a Denon stereo receiver).

When my wife and I bought our first house - and after having come to the conclusion that I wanted a sub - I added the DefTech sub. The added extension was great! With a finished basement in the plans in 2008 - and after having demo'd an Energy S10.3 in my set-up and coming to the realization that the ProSub was relatively lacking - I decided to get a highly-rated PB10-NSD. Wow, what a step up in subwooferage! But when I took it to my buddy's place and A/B'd it against his Paradigm PW-2200 in his basement HT, I realized that I'd need more output to compensate for moving from a main-floor set-up to a basement set-up. And, so, the PB12-NSD came along.

It was a great sub for a little over two years, at which point I'd discovered the joy of duals, and also decided that the PB12 wasn't giving me everything I was looking for: I wanted a bit more output, smoother FR, and a tighter sound for music. I almost ended up with dual Rythmik F15s, but a three-month back-order - and an audition of my buddy's ChaseHT CS-18.1s - veered me toward the SS-18.1s.

Although they're not perfect, they are very good, and they took care of the things I wanted taken care of (output, FR, tighter sound).

Over the years, I've also had the chance to demo a number of other subs, including the Energy S10.3; my buddy's Paradigm PW-2200, AV123 MFW-15 and Paradigm Servo-15 v1; and an acquaintance's Paradigm Servo-15 v2 and SUB 25.

I've come to appreciate what better sound sounds like and what better performance feels like. It sounds and feels pretty good. cool.gif

Lessons Learned / Advice
- Do your research. Try to learn what the numbers mean.
- Be prepared to spend a bit more, if you can, to get something better. And by "better", I don't mean "audiophile pretentious" better - I just mean something that doesn't leave you wishing you'd (saved up and) spent a bit more up front to get what you really wanted. If nothing else, you'll feel the need to upgrade less often, which may save you more in the long run.
- Don't get obsessive with your set-up: Calibrate, tweak and enjoy. If it sounds good, leave it alone. When it stops sounding good, that's the time to "fix what's broke".


- THE END -

smile.gif

Excellent post! cool.gif I especially like the comments in blue.
post #406 of 663
Thanks! biggrin.gif
post #407 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Where they work best. wink.gif

If they measure the same they'll sound the same. That's not to say that every alignment doesn't have its own characteristics, but that identical response will be heard identically. I don't favor one alignment over another, I use what works for the desired application.

Thanks again Bill!
post #408 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

There are three standards in common use by the AES/EIA. One is +/-3dB, which is accepted as a small enough variation in response that it's considered the benchmark for being 'flat'. The second is +/-6dB, considered the minimum acceptable broadband response variation. The third is -10dB, considered the limit of useful response, at either end of the spectrum..

Yeah I've heard of the 10 and 3dB points.

Just curious (not directed at Bill), some manufacturers (for example Outlaw) use +/-2dB points. Why would they do that if it makes it look a bit 'worse' than if using industry standard?

I bought an outlaw lfm-1 plus Nov.2012 and am still satisfied.
post #409 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Where they work best. wink.gif

If they measure the same they'll sound the same. That's not to say that every alignment doesn't have its own characteristics, but that identical response will be heard identically. I don't favor one alignment over another, I use what works for the desired application.

Upon further thought. Which application do you think provides the most flexibility. If today you had to choose one style of sub enclosure to use for the rest of your days (HT application) what would it be?
post #410 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

If today you had to choose one style of sub enclosure to use for the rest of your days (HT application) what would it be?
I already have, a folded horn. My priorities are high sensitivity and low distortion, where horns rule supreme. Unless they're silly large you sacrifice some extension compared to direct radiators, but I'm content with 15-20Hz.
post #411 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

I already have, a folded horn. My priorities are high sensitivity and low distortion, where horns rule supreme. Unless they're silly large you sacrifice some extension compared to direct radiators, but I'm content with 15-20Hz.

I have had a gut feeling all along (even in my immense lack of knowledge) that the Orbit shifters will be the ones. smile.gif
post #412 of 663
post #413 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html
I use Table Tuba myself.
post #414 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/THT.html
I use Table Tuba myself.

That would look nice in my parlor, for the wife. How many do you run?
post #415 of 663
Wow, I didn't know you sold design plans Bill. I had very briefly visited your site awhile back but obviously didn't look around too much. You know I have had this thought that all along if I went DIY I have just the guy who could build the enclosures. I mean i could to but he is precision. He was actually my high school science teacher but now works as a master carpenter. Does lots of stuff but a lot of custom cabinets. He actually helped me build a small sealed enclosure for a Boston SPG-555 car audio sub awhile back. Put a nice rounded edge at all the corners. Man the savings are tempting!
post #416 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

That would look nice in my parlor, for the wife. How many do you run?
I only use one, located at the back of the room. My seating area is small enough that room modes aren't an issue, nor is output, by any means. eek.gif
post #417 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

Wow, I didn't know you sold design plans Bill. I had very briefly visited your site awhile back but obviously didn't look around too much. You know I have had this thought that all along if I went DIY I have just the guy who could build the enclosures. I mean i could to but he is precision. He was actually my high school science teacher but now works as a master carpenter. Does lots of stuff but a lot of custom cabinets. He actually helped me build a small sealed enclosure for a Boston SPG-555 car audio sub awhile back. Put a nice rounded edge at all the corners. Man the savings are tempting!

The other day I found myself at Bill’s site and was quite impressed! Knowing how knowledgeable Bill is (he certainly has corrected me more than once) so I thought I would register. Figured it would be a good site to learn and get some myth busters addressed from time to time along with learning about the products. It all went along fine until some questions came up in regards to the products over there. It stated these questions are being asked to try to filter out spam. Anyway I was rejected because I subsequently knew nothing about the products being asked about. Rats! I didn’t even make it to Bills desk for consideration.. smile.gif my loss. I guess I could read up on the products and see how things go.. Anyway great site, very informational and always try to glean what I can from Bills posts when I come across them. Bottom line.. I’m always reminded how little I know when I see certain posters post. redface.gif
post #418 of 663
So do we have anyone who has built Bills designs on AVS? Looks like that tuba horn could be a nice sub or subs
post #419 of 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpowell84 View Post

So do we have anyone who has built Bills designs on AVS? Looks like that tuba horn could be a nice sub or subs

Running a AutoTuba in my car and its crazy good. Not much output below 35hrz but for rock, heavy metal its fantastic and has great slam factor. Using at Tang Band 740p 8" with about 120watts. Really wanting to try a table tuba next, TubaHT is just to large for my room.

Not the easiest build but well worth it. I took the plans to a few car audio installers to see about getting it built but they just looked at me like I was crazy and wanted to charge a crazy amount of money to build it ($350) and not even follow the plans right.
post #420 of 663
There are many THT builds on here. The lilmike F-20 is also a folded horn sun with a 15. I am not sure how they compare but I did own the F-20(4 of them). I own his speaker designs and I love them!
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