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Intel HD Graphics and XBMC HTPC Issues

post #1 of 41
12/10/12 at 7:09am
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I’m surprised nobody is warning people about these issues, I’ve read a couple of threads stating the same problems here at AVS, but they were quickly dismissed by senior members or left without real answers. There are hundreds of posts on XBMC and Intel Forums about them; these are the 2 that I’m personally having problems with:

1. XBMC audio Sync issue on 24p content. This is a huge problem, XBMC is unusable at least you delay the audio for each 24p source material. I have tried XBMC Eden (Assassin guide audio patch), Frodo Beta 2 and Beta 3 and several nightly builds. Please refer to the following threads for more information:

http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=80247&page=40
http://forum.xbmc.org/showthread.php?tid=141646

2. Intel HD graphics don’t output RGB full range through HDMI. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but XBMC and madVR convert the source material to full range for processing and Intel reconvert the signal to limited again, degrading picture quality. My TV accepts Full (0, 255) and Limited range (16, 235) and automatically switch depending on the signal. The results in my calibrated TV: blacks and colors are not right. Please refer to the following thread for more information:

http://communities.intel.com/message/174360

System:
CPU: Core i3 3220
GPU: Intel Graphics HD 2500
Receiver: Denon AVR-590
Latest drivers from Intel Installed

Please comment.
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post #2 of 41
12/10/12 at 10:59am
Weird. I have never had audio/video sync issues with 24 hz content with refresh rate switching on with eden or frodo. This includes my i3-2100 with hd2000 graphics, as well as ati and nvidia cards. Windows and OpenELEC. Hardware acceleration on/off. With and without a receiver as well as different TVs. I've never found the need to use 'sync playback to display' feature either. I didn't read that whole thread, but has the source of the issue been narrowed down at all?

Maybe I need to run some test patterns but I've never had black crush problems with my Kuro either.
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post #3 of 41
12/10/12 at 11:27am
No the 24p sync issues haven't, because like you, the devs can't reproduce it, making it difficult to resolve. The 'sync playback to display' option only works (sorry will rephrase that - functions - its been reported that it doesn't work) when xbmc decodes the audio - it has no function when bitstreaming - same as JRiver's videoclock.
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post #4 of 41
12/10/12 at 12:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

No the 24p sync issues haven't, because like you, the devs can't reproduce it, making it difficult to resolve. The 'sync playback to display' option only works (sorry will rephrase that - functions - its been reported that it doesn't work) when xbmc decodes the audio - it has no function when bitstreaming - same as JRiver's videoclock.

Thanks steelman. So the XBMC developers cannot reproduce the issue because in their setups the audio @24p is in sync?, seriously, there's a 40 pages thread describing the issue across multiple plataforms and they haven't even acknowledge the problem?

@lockdown, I guess in some especific setups with the right drivers you can get bitstreaming HD audio in sync with the video?, may I ask what drivers are installed in your HTPC? these are the ones in my computer:

Intel HD Graphics: 9.17.10.2875 (10/17/2012)
Intel Display Audio: 6.14.0.3097 (6/19/2012)
Intel Chipset Installation Utility: 9.3.0.1019

About the Intel HD graphics output, The signal through HDMI is converted to RGB Limited, which the TV should accept, the issue is the conversion made by the intel graphics seems to be plain bad. But I'm just guessing.
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post #5 of 41
12/10/12 at 12:23pm
Previously I was using the 32-bit Intel build of OpenELEC 2.0. Now I'm using the 64-bit Intel build of OpenELEC 3.0 beta 4. No issues with playback on either. OpenELEC can be installed to a USB stick if you have a spare lying around.
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post #6 of 41
12/10/12 at 12:35pm
Reset the "Delay when switching refresh rate" back to 0, and toggle the "Use a fullscreen window rather than true full screen"

WASAPI or DirectSound?
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post #7 of 41
12/10/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

Thanks steelman. So the XBMC developers cannot reproduce the issue because in their setups the audio @24p is in sync?, seriously, there's a 40 pages thread describing the issue across multiple plataforms and they haven't even acknowledge the problem?
@lockdown, I guess in some especific setups with the right drivers you can get bitstreaming HD audio in sync with the video?, may I ask what drivers are installed in your HTPC? these are the ones in my computer:
Intel HD Graphics: 9.17.10.2875 (10/17/2012)
Intel Display Audio: 6.14.0.3097 (6/19/2012)
Intel Chipset Installation Utility: 9.3.0.1019
About the Intel HD graphics output, The signal through HDMI is converted to RGB Limited, which the TV should accept, the issue is the conversion made by the intel graphics seems to be plain bad. But I'm just guessing.

How can the devs acknowledge and remedy an issue they can't reproduce. 40 pages it may be, but I would guess it represents a very minute portion of their user base and as such, could be any number of contributory factors in the users set-up
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Reset the "Delay when switching refresh rate" back to 0, and toggle the "Use a fullscreen window rather than true full screen"
WASAPI or DirectSound?

Don't see where the OP mentions having this enabled, my understanding is its set to 0 as default - but wouldn't have thought it would have an effect - but you never know)
Quote:
Originally Posted by lockdown571 View Post

Previously I was using the 32-bit Intel build of OpenELEC 2.0. Now I'm using the 64-bit Intel build of OpenELEC 3.0 beta 4. No issues with playback on either. OpenELEC can be installed to a USB stick if you have a spare lying around.

Does it have to be loaded from a USB Stick, or can it be launched from a CD/DVD. Does OpenElec support HD Audio - not a huge issue, can convert to FLAC if needed.
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post #8 of 41
12/10/12 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Does it have to be loaded from a USB Stick, or can it be launched from a CD/DVD. Does OpenElec support HD Audio - not a huge issue, can convert to FLAC if needed.

I'm not sure if it can be installed from a CD/DVD or has a live mode like Ubuntu. I'm assuming XBMCbuntu does this?

HD audio works on Nvidia cards, and last I heard HD audio is experimental on Intel. I don't think it's supported on AMD cards.
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post #9 of 41
12/10/12 at 1:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Don't see where the OP mentions having this enabled, my understanding is its set to 0 as default - but wouldn't have thought it would have an effect - but you never know)
Does it have to be loaded from a USB Stick, or can it be launched from a CD/DVD. Does OpenElec support HD Audio - not a huge issue, can convert to FLAC if needed.

It is 0 as default, (s)he mentioned that it had to be bumped up to 3 seconds for each 24p title

I had this same problem initially, resetting to 0 and using true fullscreen rather than a fullscreen window fixed my issue

Yes openelec supports HD audio

There is not an easy way to create an OE installation CD since the project provides tar.bz2 builds in place of iso builds. Some others asked here http://openelec.tv/forum/64-installation/50146-is-there-a-way-to-make-an-install-cd
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post #10 of 41
12/10/12 at 1:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Reset the "Delay when switching refresh rate" back to 0, and toggle the "Use a fullscreen window rather than true full screen"
WASAPI or DirectSound?

Pause during refresh rate change - was set to off
Use a fullscreen window rather than true full screen - when enabled the video stutter.

I was using WASAPI, changed to DirectSound and the sync seems to be OK (not perfect, but almost), Thanks!

Now, aren't we supposed to use WASAPI?

Regards.
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post #11 of 41
12/10/12 at 1:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

How can the devs acknowledge and remedy an issue they can't reproduce. 40 pages it may be, but I would guess it represents a very minute portion of their user base and as such, could be any number of contributory factors in the users set-up

Thanks steelman, since I was having the issue and the thread was long with lots of complains, I thought it was a widespread issue, I guess I was wrong.
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post #12 of 41
12/10/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

Pause during refresh rate change - was set to off
Use a fullscreen window rather than true full screen - when enabled the video stutter.
I was using WASAPI, changed to DirectSound and the sync seems to be OK (not perfect, but almost), Thanks!
Now, aren't we supposed to use WASAPI?
Regards.

I started my XBMC experiences with Frodo Beta on an i3-2125 coming from WMC

I toggled these until it worked, and ended up with the same settings you described. I'm not sure if the results would have been the same in Eden w/ patch

Others have mentioned problems getting WASAPI to work with Frodo's audio engine, but it's still beta

Also, I see a lot of information on WASAPI which seems to indicate it's efficiency over directsound, but the fidelity would appear to be the same. I'd like to know more about it, but most quick search material I've looked at is just a troubleshooting thread
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post #13 of 41
12/10/12 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

Thanks steelman, since I was having the issue and the thread was long with lots of complains, I thought it was a widespread issue, I guess I was wrong.

Yeah I know its a long thread - unfortunately there are many users with multiple posts, in it, making it seem more widespread than I think the devs believe it to be. Though it is infuriating, there are ways to tackle it if you have a constant delay. Check the WIKI for advancedsettings\video latency, this will allow you to set-up a delay where the issue is with files of a specific framerate. In my case everything with the exception of 23.976 files are OK, so I set a global delay for those files only amd everything else plays as default. Not perfect and no use if the delay is variable, but a possible solution none the less.
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post #14 of 41
12/10/12 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I started my XBMC experiences with Frodo Beta on an i3-2125 coming from WMC
I toggled these until it worked, and ended up with the same settings you described. I'm not sure if the results would have been the same in Eden w/ patch
Others have mentioned problems getting WASAPI to work with Frodo's audio engine, but it's still beta
Also, I see a lot of information on WASAPI which seems to indicate it's efficiency over directsound, but the fidelity would appear to be the same. I'd like to know more about it, but most quick search material I've looked at is just a troubleshooting thread

Have you seen this entry in the Wiki - some good stuff there http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Windows_Settings_for_AudioEngine.

As you say its still in Beta, unfortunately many have suffered this through various builds and are yet to see light at the end of the tunnel. Certainly there has been little to suggest that there will be any improvement in Frodo (Stable or otherwise) - happy to be proved wrong.
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post #15 of 41
12/10/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Have you seen this entry in the Wiki - some good stuff there http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Windows_Settings_for_AudioEngine.
As you say its still in Beta, unfortunately many have suffered this through various builds and are yet to see light at the end of the tunnel. Certainly there has been little to suggest that there will be any improvement in Frodo (Stable or otherwise) - happy to be proved wrong.

Thanks for the link, indeed good info

To me, I still read that WASAPI exclusive is better on resource management, but it appears to me that your audio buffer in directsound would provide the same experience (bit for bit) at the final element (speakers)
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post #16 of 41
12/10/12 at 4:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

Have you seen this entry in the Wiki - some good stuff there http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=Windows_Settings_for_AudioEngine.
As you say its still in Beta, unfortunately many have suffered this through various builds and are yet to see light at the end of the tunnel. Certainly there has been little to suggest that there will be any improvement in Frodo (Stable or otherwise) - happy to be proved wrong.

According to the info in that link:

"Even more important for this thread is that you cannot pass through encoded formats, as DirectSound will not decode them and it would otherwise bit-mangle them, and there is a loss of sonic quality involved in the mixing and resampling".

I'll check tonight if DirectSound is a real solution and if it is sending decoded audio to the receiver. But the statement above somehow contradict itself.

Edit: I found the following in another thread, which indicates that the statement above is correct:

"Do we need wasapi exclusive in bitstreaming?

No, because Windows' mixer can not interfare with compressed formats, so you can directly pass compressed audio over SPDIF(for SD lossy formats) or HDMI(for HD lossless or lossy formats and SD lossy formats.) to your receiver to be decoded there. (via appropriate decoders which are able to pass compressed stream to the end-point.)" Posted by Ricabullah

In other words if you are bitstreaming (like me), it shouldn't matter if XBMC is set to DirectSound or Wasapi. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Edited by juaniquillo - 12/10/12 at 5:28pm
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post #17 of 41
12/10/12 at 7:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

In other words if you are bitstreaming (like me), it shouldn't matter if XBMC is set to DirectSound or Wasapi. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

That's what I was getting at

Only difference (for bitstreaming) seems to be that one is somehow causing video stutter?
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post #18 of 41
12/11/12 at 12:03am
Oh - now that's completely the opposite of what I think is happening and what I think the author of the piece is implying.

AFAIK Direct Sound resamples the audio stream prior to output, WASAPI doesn't. Therefore to achieve untouched bit for bit passthrough to the receiver WASAPI is required - might be wrong though. Certainly in an attempt to clarify the position the author in his own words " has bit mangled" the explanation smile.gif

Ricabullah is right it will pass through the Core and HD Audio codecs, but not untouched.

Think this is the pertinent point

"With DirectSound, Windows controls the sample rate, channel layout and other details of the audio stream via an Audio Mixer" - whereas WASAPI doesn't.

LOL it just gets more confusing the more you read - but think this is the simple reasoning. smile.gif
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post #19 of 41
12/11/12 at 5:42am
I'm the author of that wiki page, however some of the information on that page was taken from a XBMC developer which I've attempted to present in more easily understandable form, admittedly it was a bit of a rushed job just to get something on the wiki as a lot of questions have been asked on the new audio subsystem in XBMC, and I've not had time to revisit it so it still needs a bit of editing.

So to be clear:

WASAPI is best choice for the highest quality audio as the audio stream bypasses Windows so audio is sent from the app direct to the audio driver, so if you want bit for bit audio WASAPI must be used.

Directsound has greater compatible and easier to get working as audio is passed through the Windows OS audio mixer, this can result in a reduction in the audio quality due to resampling, increased latency etc. Bitstreaming for stuff like AC3 and DTS will work in Directshow mode but can't be guaranteed to be bit for bit as Windows could potentially modify the audio stream.

It should also be noted that HD Audio can't be bitstreamed in Directsound mode so if you want to bitstream HD Audio you must use WASAPI.

Btw, hi steelman I'm jjd-uk over on the XBMC forums smile.gif
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post #20 of 41
12/11/12 at 6:07am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeky chappie View Post

It should also be noted that HD Audio can't be bitstreamed in Directsound mode so if you want to bitstream HD Audio you must use WASAPI.
Thanks, that is correct so I'm back to using WASAPI with XBMC, which means the audio is out of sync with 24p movies.

I should clarify that I want to bitstream HD audio to my receiver.

Any other ideas?
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post #21 of 41
12/11/12 at 6:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by juaniquillo View Post

Thanks, that is correct so I'm back to using WASAPI with XBMC, which means the audio is out of sync with 24p movies.
I should clarify that I want to bitstream HD audio to my receiver.
Any other ideas?

See post #13 - default delay can be set for 24fps

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeky chappie View Post

I'm the author of that wiki page, however some of the information on that page was taken from a XBMC developer which I've attempted to present in more easily understandable form, admittedly it was a bit of a rushed job just to get something on the wiki as a lot of questions have been asked on the new audio subsystem in XBMC, and I've not had time to revisit it so it still needs a bit of editing.
So to be clear:
WASAPI is best choice for the highest quality audio as the audio stream bypasses Windows so audio is sent from the app direct to the audio driver, so if you want bit for bit audio WASAPI must be used.
Directsound has greater compatible and easier to get working as audio is passed through the Windows OS audio mixer, this can result in a reduction in the audio quality due to resampling, increased latency etc. Bitstreaming for stuff like AC3 and DTS will work in Directshow mode but can't be guaranteed to be bit for bit as Windows could potentially modify the audio stream.
It should also be noted that HD Audio can't be bitstreamed in Directsound mode so if you want to bitstream HD Audio you must use WASAPI.
Btw, hi steelman I'm jjd-uk over on the XBMC forums smile.gif

Hey man nice to see you over here as well. Like juaniquillo I wish we could get a fix for 24fps audio delay, I know of the 'latency' workaround, but there doesn't seem to be a constant delay in all of my files - eg I have one which is PCM,Air Force One that needs 225ms delay and others where the delay is closer to 125ms confused.gif
Edited by steelman1991 - 12/11/12 at 6:48am
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post #22 of 41
12/11/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeky chappie View Post

I'm the author of that wiki page, however some of the information on that page was taken from a XBMC developer which I've attempted to present in more easily understandable form, admittedly it was a bit of a rushed job just to get something on the wiki as a lot of questions have been asked on the new audio subsystem in XBMC, and I've not had time to revisit it so it still needs a bit of editing.
So to be clear:
WASAPI is best choice for the highest quality audio as the audio stream bypasses Windows so audio is sent from the app direct to the audio driver, so if you want bit for bit audio WASAPI must be used.
Directsound has greater compatible and easier to get working as audio is passed through the Windows OS audio mixer, this can result in a reduction in the audio quality due to resampling, increased latency etc. Bitstreaming for stuff like AC3 and DTS will work in Directshow mode but can't be guaranteed to be bit for bit as Windows could potentially modify the audio stream.
It should also be noted that HD Audio can't be bitstreamed in Directsound mode so if you want to bitstream HD Audio you must use WASAPI.
Btw, hi steelman I'm jjd-uk over on the XBMC forums smile.gif

So the TrueHD and DTS-HD lights aren't indicating that the receiver is receiving the "full" bitstream. I was pretty sure that windows audio from a series 6 or 7 PCH could sample 24/192 ?? I don't think any movie audio is sampled higher than this, most are 24/96 I thought
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post #23 of 41
12/11/12 at 7:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

So the TrueHD and DTS-HD lights aren't indicating that the receiver is receiving the "full" bitstream. I was pretty sure that windows audio from a series 6 or 7 PCH could sample 24/192 ?? I don't think any movie audio is sampled higher than this, most are 24/96 I thought

When using DirectSound TrueHD or DTS-HD lights are off, the receiver switch to PLII. The HD audio is being decoded by the computer, which also makes the video to stutter.
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post #24 of 41
12/11/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeky chappie View Post

WASAPI is best choice for the highest quality audio as the audio stream bypasses Windows so audio is sent from the app direct to the audio driver, so if you want bit for bit audio WASAPI must be used.
It bypasses the Windows Mixer. Important distinction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeky chappie View Post

Bitstreaming for stuff like AC3 and DTS will work in Directshow mode but can't be guaranteed to be bit for bit as Windows could potentially modify the audio stream.
AC3/DTS (and all bitstream variants) are NOT touched by the Mixer. If they were, you would not be bitstreaming. The Windows Mixer will only modify PCM streams (audio decoded by the PC) and it will only alter them in certain cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeky chappie View Post

It should also be noted that HD Audio can't be bitstreamed in Directsound mode so if you want to bitstream HD Audio you must use WASAPI.
Is this an XBMC limitation? I bitstream HD audio just fine in DirectSound mode.
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post #25 of 41
12/11/12 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vladd View Post

Is this an XBMC limitation? I bitstream HD audio just fine in DirectSound mode.

I have in XBMC as well, so I'm not sure where that comment that it can't be done comes from.

I'm using Shark's codec pack, not sure if it would behave differently otherwise
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post #26 of 41
12/11/12 at 1:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I have in XBMC as well, so I'm not sure where that comment that it can't be done comes from.
I'm using Shark's codec pack, not sure if it would behave differently otherwise

So you have selected DirectSound on XBMC and you CAN bitstream HD Audio to your receiver?

Regards.
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post #27 of 41
12/11/12 at 2:37pm
Correct
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post #28 of 41
12/11/12 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

I have in XBMC as well, so I'm not sure where that comment that it can't be done comes from.
I'm using Shark's codec pack, not sure if it would behave differently otherwise

You certainly haven't achieved it using Shark's anything - unless you are using a DSPlayer derivative build - because XBMC doesn't use external codecs at all. It has its own propietary codecs and Shark will have no effect on any playback operation.
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post #29 of 41
12/11/12 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steelman1991 View Post

You certainly haven't achieved it using Shark's anything - unless you are using a DSPlayer derivative build - because XBMC doesn't use external codecs at all. It has its own propietary codecs and Shark will have no effect on any playback operation.

Okay? But it did bitstream either way for me

I was just guessing at why it worked for me and not juaniquillo

Which one of us is experiencing the abnormality?
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post #30 of 41
12/11/12 at 3:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Slayer View Post

Okay? But it did bitstream either way for me
I was just guessing at why it worked for me and not juaniquillo
Which one of us is experiencing the abnormality?

LOL on the basis of Vladd's post, I don't honestly know. I'm like juaniquillo - Direct Sound won't allow me to bitstream either - get horrendously low fps playback and no sound at all (ATI HD7850 and i5 3750k). WASAPI works but I get audio sync issues with 24p playback.

I can only assume that there is some limitation within the new Audio Engine which prefers WASAPI to Direct Sound - gonna pose the question to DDDamian, one of the devs involved in the AE build to see what he can clarify.
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