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Crown XLS Drivecore amps & subsonic content (v. we have a problem Houston?) - Page 3

post #61 of 89
12/12/12 at 5:55pm
I do think the 2002 hits the sweet spot for price-performance, especially if you catch a sale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donald2B View Post

Just stumbled upon this thread.
I've got two XTi 2002 amps, each running an a7s-650 kit. I'm running about 4-6db hot and i've only hard clipped them twice.
Once during HTTYD when the large dragon smashed into the ground, the other during WOTW Pod scene.
No HPF, no limiter, very minimal cut in the EQ for room modes. Gains are full on. It's the only way to keep the out signal similar to the input signal in my setup off my 9.8.
I've thought about stepping up to the bigger XTi amps, but I got such a GOOD deal on the 2002s, that I don't think I will miss those few extra dBs.
Now if I only had 4 of those fancy new Dayton 18" drivers.....wait.....must....fight....the....urge to....upgrade.....wink.gif
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post #62 of 89
12/12/12 at 7:25pm
I was really concerned there for a while since I didn't see many people running them here. I just like that I didn't have to add an external EQ with these.

So far I have been very happy, too bad I can't get any more A7s-650 kits...would like two more. biggrin.gif
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post #63 of 89
12/12/12 at 7:34pm
MK will make another move soon enough, haha. at that point you can buy his 6
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post #64 of 89
12/13/12 at 12:05am
I don't know beast, these are some awesome subs for my room! I have never run this high level of sine waves before. They sound really good, deep and powerful. They move some serious air.
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post #65 of 89
12/13/12 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

MK will make another move soon enough

I agree with this statement. The question is WHEN?

Wagers, anyone? biggrin.gif
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post #66 of 89
12/13/12 at 5:41am
MKtheater is in denial! He just hasn't realized it yet! biggrin.gif
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post #67 of 89
12/13/12 at 9:55am
To what?
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post #68 of 89
12/13/12 at 2:10pm
Well, crown amps are bomb proof. I hooked up a dvc sub wrong, red to red to black and vice versa to my xls 1000. I ran it hard, trying to work out why no boom. there were a few angry
looking red lights, and I eventually stopped. I took the box apart, realised my stuff up and re wired. No apparent damage to anything....
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post #69 of 89
12/13/12 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Absolutely indistinguishable from any other quality amp I've owned as far as I can tell...just prolly a handful more dbs.

James, I'm curious, have you compared the highs (measurements, I mean) to the same speakers driven AB amp?

I'm curious how the output filter is implemented on the DriveCores for mains. Really, the only justified knock on Class D is that most output filter designs interact with driver impedance up top.

Of course, not all measurable problems (especially in the 10-20 kHz octave) are audible. But it's interesting to know nonetheless.
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post #70 of 89
12/13/12 at 5:46pm
That's a fair question, and no, I haven't. But I can tell you that I don't hear anything I was (or wasn't) before with a
some quality AB amps.

James
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post #71 of 89
12/14/12 at 6:04am
Is the Crown XLS-202 a good amp for powering a pair of mains in a typical home theater type setting? I have been offered two of the XLS-202's for $350.00, which seems like a pretty good deal for 4 channels of 300 watts per channel at 8ohms. Are there any reasons that this amp would not be good to use for powering my LCR's? Does this amp roll off at 5hz or higher? If higher, where does it roll off? I looked but can';t find any solid info on this.
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post #72 of 89
12/14/12 at 7:02am
At $175 per they are asking too much. I wouldn't go much past $130 for the 202's. In answer to powering the mains they would be fine. You do have to contend with fan noise and the various ways for mitigating that.

I have a 402 powering my mains (purchased new for $179 delivered) and I can say this about them: Being driven by my EMU 1212M balanced for my Statements I sold off my two Parasound amps. Where the Parasounds had some hiss coming out of the tweeter the Crown is dead silent.
Edited by Jinjuku - 12/14/12 at 7:11am
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post #73 of 89
12/15/12 at 5:52am
Good to know JenJuku! Thanks. I guess the search for a new amp(s) to power my mains and center channel will have to continue. The main thing that I was worried about with the XLS-202 is whether or not it has some sort of frequency limitations or filters that would prevent it from going 20hz to 20khz. Can any of you guys answer this question?
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post #74 of 89
12/15/12 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

That's a fair question, and no, I haven't. But I can tell you that I don't hear anything I was (or wasn't) before with a
some quality AB amps.

James

Thanks for the input.

Too bad Harman used Crown's old Class I technology on the megabuck Levinson No. 53 (making it something like an overpriced, over-blinged old Crown K2) rather than Drivecore, because there's no chance of Stereophile putting a Crown XLS pro amp or LexiCrown DD8/CT8150 8-channel amp, on their simulated speaker load, and nobody else seems to do such measurements.
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post #75 of 89
12/15/12 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

How do the crown amps sound as LCR amps compared to what you have owned?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Absolutely indistinguishable from any other quality amp I've owned as far as I can tell...just prolly a handful more dbs.
When I looked at what I could get (6) Crown's for an 11 channel system, it quickly became a no brainer...build a decent cabinet, done.
James

I have to disagree.

My LG FP10kQ clones sounds 10x better in the top-end than what I recall the XTI or iTech's or EP4K ever being. At least the last time I attempted that test, but I have to admit, it wasn't a very controlled test condition as my system has changed quite a bit over the last while.
I'd have to re-do that assessment to be more confident in my statement.
I could only assume the XLS series would share a similar fate, which is pure speculation on my part.

How the clone achieves this, I don't know.
But I'm talking a fraction of a percentage of distortion here... practically immeasurable, but audible to me; which can mean a lot in the world of bleeding-edge hi-fi; but conversely, means next to nothing to a mid-fi system lost in a sea of such noise already.
You see, I tweak my system to have absolutely-zero audible distortion to the n-th degree, I hate distortion with an absolute passion, I will spend endless hours or years and endless amounts of money to remove every trace of it as best I can. I will sacrifice SPL if required. I'm Super anal about it.

In the mids and lower, you probably couldn't perceive a quality difference; only in the top-end.

That said, they all have way more power reserve and dynamic range than any receiver from say: Best Buy, which goes a long ways in suppressing distortion at the playback levels that I enjoy.
Which I believe is mastermaybe's main point there, and I can agree with that part.

My two cents.
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post #76 of 89
12/15/12 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Good to know JenJuku! Thanks. I guess the search for a new amp(s) to power my mains and center channel will have to continue. The main thing that I was worried about with the XLS-202 is whether or not it has some sort of frequency limitations or filters that would prevent it from going 20hz to 20khz. Can any of you guys answer this question?

The old and new XLS are rated 20hz to 20khz. No problems there.
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post #77 of 89
12/15/12 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Thanks for the input.
Too bad Harman used Crown's old Class I technology on the megabuck Levinson No. 53 (making it something like an overpriced, over-blinged old Crown K2) rather than Drivecore, because there's no chance of Stereophile putting a Crown XLS pro amp or LexiCrown DD8/CT8150 8-channel amp, on their simulated speaker load, and nobody else seems to do such measurements.

Gene at Audioholics is supposed to do some testing of some pro amps. The Yamaha PS2500 and Crown XLS DriveCore (2000 or 2500 probably) are the biggest contenders for testing. Stereophile? Who cares.
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post #78 of 89
12/16/12 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Gene at Audioholics is supposed to do some testing of some pro amps. The Yamaha PS2500 and Crown XLS DriveCore (2000 or 2500 probably) are the biggest contenders for testing. Stereophile? Who cares.
Please keep us informed if he does end up doing the testing.
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post #79 of 89
12/16/12 at 8:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DS-21 View Post

Thanks for the input.
Too bad Harman used Crown's old Class I technology on the megabuck Levinson No. 53 (making it something like an overpriced, over-blinged old Crown K2) rather than Drivecore, because there's no chance of Stereophile putting a Crown XLS pro amp or LexiCrown DD8/CT8150 8-channel amp, on their simulated speaker load, and nobody else seems to do such measurements.

Gene at Audioholics is supposed to do some testing of some pro amps. The Yamaha PS2500 and Crown XLS DriveCore (2000 or 2500 probably) are the biggest contenders for testing. Stereophile? Who cares.

First, I simply don't trust Gene, based on his history, to do the review honestly. He's going to find some way to make the Pass amps I assume he was given appear better, because that's what shills do for their paymasters.

Second, Gene doesn't seem to do test Stereophile does, the Kantor simulated speaker load (or anything like it). That's the one that interests me.
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post #80 of 89
12/16/12 at 10:08am
Well, I finally found my copy of WOTW, played the pod emerging scene and I was watching at -25, clipped my amp hard but it only cut out for a brief second then went right back to action. So I got up and lowered the attenuators two clicks, played the scene again at the same volume and no clip or cutout occurred. Bass on receiver is set to -8db. The volume on this movie is pretty loud in general and I have no reason to watch any louder than -20 on the receiver. I guess I'll just have to be a little careful when demoing this movie...

It was actually funny during the lightning scene. My wife was sitting here wrapping presents and she kept jumping every time it struck.
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post #81 of 89
12/17/12 at 6:35am
So what was the consensus on 2500 for 4 ohm stereo loads. I saw Stereodude's assesment that it had a few db headroom over the 1500, but i assume this was into a two ohm load and being pushed. I was about to order and ep4k and fan, but if the 2500 can do 4ohm stereo without being limited, I would opt for it, as I can get it for nearly the same price as the ep.fan combo.
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post #82 of 89
12/17/12 at 7:19am
^ Ha ha. I played the entire lightning strike/emerging scene with my xti 4002 at +5dbs on each sub channel at reference ("0") and saw nary a clip light at any time.

Output was ridiculous and clean, and I didn't get the red flasheroos like I was seeing with the 2500 so I'm contented.

James
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post #83 of 89
12/17/12 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

I have to disagree.
My LG FP10kQ clones sounds 10x better in the top-end than what I recall the XTI or iTech's or EP4K ever being. At least the last time I attempted that test, but I have to admit, it wasn't a very controlled test condition as my system has changed quite a bit over the last while.
I'd have to re-do that assessment to be more confident in my statement.
I could only assume the XLS series would share a similar fate, which is pure speculation on my part.
How the clone achieves this, I don't know.
But I'm talking a fraction of a percentage of distortion here... practically immeasurable, but audible to me; which can mean a lot in the world of bleeding-edge hi-fi; but conversely, means next to nothing to a mid-fi system lost in a sea of such noise already.
You see, I tweak my system to have absolutely-zero audible distortion to the n-th degree, I hate distortion with an absolute passion, I will spend endless hours or years and endless amounts of money to remove every trace of it as best I can. I will sacrifice SPL if required. I'm Super anal about it.
In the mids and lower, you probably couldn't perceive a quality difference; only in the top-end.
That said, they all have way more power reserve and dynamic range than any receiver from say: Best Buy, which goes a long ways in suppressing distortion at the playback levels that I enjoy.
Which I believe is mastermaybe's main point there, and I can agree with that part.
My two cents.

Yeah I guess I don't know what to say. I don't know what "10x better" sounds like ...but then you went on to say "I'm talking a fraction of a percentage of distortion here"...so I'm more confused, still. Seeing that the XLS, XTI's, or iTechs all operate well below the widely-agreed-upon threshold of humanly audible THD and noise within the scientific community, I personally think it would be impossible to discern it unit to unit without measurement, so long as they were all operating within their limits.

The fact that there seems to be a passage of time between your comparison between the Xti's/itechs vs the clone makes for even more muddied waters: the human sonic recollection is notoriously unreliable.

Personally I've conducted at least a half dozen non-scientific level-matched side-by-sides of amplifiers (A, AB, D, H) operating within their limits and I have yet to be able to discern an audible difference between any of them, so I guess I'm happy to exist in blissful ignorance.


James
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post #84 of 89
12/17/12 at 7:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopShop1 View Post

So what was the consensus on 2500 for 4 ohm stereo loads. I saw Stereodude's assesment that it had a few db headroom over the 1500, but i assume this was into a two ohm load and being pushed. I was about to order and ep4k and fan, but if the 2500 can do 4ohm stereo without being limited, I would opt for it, as I can get it for nearly the same price as the ep.fan combo.

I'd say that- like almost everything else audio/video- it's about your goals and desired playback levels. There are some here who seem to run their bass 20 decibels hot (or more) and need every watt (and many times, every driver) they can get their hands on.

In my case, I was pushing my 2500 to the limit with dual 2 ohm loads to fill a space with reference bass nearing 4,000 ^3's... I'd be shocked if it didn't handle 4 ohm stereo more easily and efficiently.

All this, and it seems that adding a 10 hz hpf all-but eliminated the issue, but there are some chasing the single digits, so 120+db output to "just" 10hz may not be acceptable to you or others.

The fact of the matter for me was that I had a vendor offer an xti 4002 for it (the 2500) straight up so I of course jumped on the opportunity...I probably could/would have been fine with XLS 2500 perpetually, otherwise, barring a significantly larger space to fill.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 12/17/12 at 7:45am
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post #85 of 89
12/17/12 at 7:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Ha ha. I played the entire lightning strike/emerging scene with my xti 4002 at +5dbs on each sub channel at reference ("0") and saw nary a clip light at any time.
Output was ridiculous and clean, and I didn't get the red flasheroos like I was seeing with the 2500 so I'm contented.
James

I just don't have the budget to step up to anything larger for the family room right now. The 8 18" Dayton project for the theater ran my fun funds kinda low...not to mention the other two 18s for the family room, $450 worth of BB and accessories.

Where you running the 2500 bridged or stereo?? 4ohm or 2 ohm?? I guess I am jsut hoping that someone will tell me that 4ohm stereo will beno problems.....wishfull thinking???
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post #86 of 89
12/17/12 at 7:49am
So basically you're looking for a single amp to run a pair of Daytons in the family room, correct?

So 775 per driver? Sounds about perfect to me...sure you can run 1000-1200 to them (well, not really according to Dayton, and likely, the drivers thermal limits, but I know people do anyway), but for what, 1-2 dbs of additional output?

How large is the room? Seems to me that two 18" HO Daytons with ~1600 watts on hand should provide some pretty serious "family room" output. smile.gif


James
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post #87 of 89
12/17/12 at 8:33am
JUst because one has a very powerful amp does not mean they use at that power. I did not buy my clone for 14000 watts, I bought it for no rolloff down to 2 hz. I probably never use more than 6000 watts on 12 drivers which gets me to over 125 dBs at my LP. Get the amp for extension and stability to your speakers and make sure you have some headroom because you never want to run anything at their max or close to it.
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post #88 of 89
12/17/12 at 8:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

So basically you're looking for a single amp to run a pair of Daytons in the family room, correct?
So 775 per driver? Sounds about perfect to me...sure you can run 1000-1200 to them (well, not really according to Dayton, and likely, the drivers thermal limits, but I know people do anyway), but for what, 1-2 dbs of additional output?
How large is the room? Seems to me that two 18" HO Daytons with ~1600 watts on hand should provide some pretty serious "family room" output. smile.gif
James

That is what I was thinking. Actually, based on models, each driver in my single sealed cab could take over 1000w without trouble. I built two cabs, each 4.3ft3 before bracing and driver displacement, effectively 4cubes net. The family room is big, but I only have Revel F12, C12 5 channel stup in there. I won't be able to ever play much beyond flat ref level in there, and even that would be few and far between. Most of the listening/watching will be done in the theater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

JUst because one has a very powerful amp does not mean they use at that power. I did not buy my clone for 14000 watts, I bought it for no rolloff down to 2 hz. I probably never use more than 6000 watts on 12 drivers which gets me to over 125 dBs at my LP. Get the amp for extension and stability to your speakers and make sure you have some headroom because you never want to run anything at their max or close to it.

I agree, I just felt that given the room and requirements, I could save a few greenbacks:D. I ended up just ordering an ep4k and a fan to mod it this morning. $268 dollars later, 900watts per driver and a 4ohm load, hopefully it wil suffice for the family room.
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post #89 of 89
12/17/12 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

^ Ha ha. I played the entire lightning strike/emerging scene with my xti 4002 at +5dbs on each sub channel at reference ("0") and saw nary a clip light at any time.
Output was ridiculous and clean, and I didn't get the red flasheroos like I was seeing with the 2500 so I'm contented.
James

That amp also cost twice as much as mine, and my amp is perfectly acceptable 95% of the time for my livingroom setup.

Now, when I build a dedicated room, we may be having a different conversation as I'm willing to put a little more dough into the amps for that room.
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