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Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 6

post #151 of 1452
Ok so now I am thoroughly flummoxed.
I do recall now that the delays/gains in Dirac are non-functional (why is that not noted in the damn manual?). However, the RS20i must have calculated the delays, as they are all populated in the delay screen. So I guess that's good...

Stephen - our set ups are very similar - I have two F113s in master mode on my front wall, but they are currently set as independent mono subs, not stereo. I am trying them at the suggested JL Audio settings with 12 db/octave @ 80hz for both hi and low filters... 24 db @ 120 hz seems really aggressive to me... And Dave, something definitely doesn't sound right if you have to drop subs by +17... Then again, your sub set up is pretty crazy!

When I configure Dirac, I definitely defeat bass management as has been spelled out previously, and re-engage once the calculations have been uploaded to the RS20i. So I'm confused as to why my subs are behaving so differently. I'm definitely doing something wrong - I just can't figure it out!

Carl - no, didn't mess with the screen, it just stopped communicating. Luckily I had saved all the basic settings, so I just had to re-run all the measurements. I too have learned the hard way!

I think I will re do everything one more time in the morning - I am most concerned about the static/distortion from the rear surrounds and what the source of that is. Perhaps I have a crossover set up incorrectly so I will crawl over that screen and see what the &$;/@ I did in there. I'm annoyed I didn't take the Dirac class 18 months ago when I should have!

Mike
post #152 of 1452
Question for RS20i owners. Have you ever pulled out the Ch 9-16 audio output card? Does it look the same as the AP20 or is it a new design? If new, could someone post a picture?

It was quite easy to slide out the card with the AP20.
post #153 of 1452
"... Just guessing , but I am betting that the bass management over rides the Dirac filters cross overs. However, if you have the dirac filter high passed @ 120hz and @ 80hz on the bass management, I would guess you will have a hole in the response from 80hz to 120hz.."

ANSWER: The filters from Dirac will add with any other filter in the signal chain including those of Bass Management. This 'addition' can effectively create much steeper rolloffs and bands that end up 'sucked out'. That is why I suggest that all filters be shut OFF when configuring Dirac Live with the exception of those used as active crossovers between drivers. You can always turn on additional filters after you have created the Dirac filters. If you intend to use BM set your Dirac HI and LO pass filters very wide so as to allow BM to dominate the resulting slopes.


"... As for the VU meters for subs #2 and #3 , I also found that. I can't seem to get a signal to them unless the base management is enabled."

ANSWER: There is no VU activity on channels 9, 10 & 11 when BM is switched OFF because there is no signal coursing thru those channels. That is, without BM being enabled you have no input to feed them. Putting a signal on those channels is the purpose of Bass Management.


"... Question for RS20i owners. Have you ever pulled out the Ch 9-16 audio output card? Does it look the same as the AP20 or is it a new design? If new, could someone post a picture? It was quite easy to slide out the card with the AP20."

ANSWER: Altho they are mounted to the chassis in same fashion, the channel cards in the RS20i are different from those in the AP20 and are not interchangeable.


"... How would you go about setting the delays separately of 2 subs when they are both on the same channel? As you can see, I have 2 subs each side of the wall, one on top and the other down bottom, the delay difference is about 0.4 m/s (The top driver is further away from the main listening position."

ANSWER: Dave you can set the delays for the subwoofers on channels 4,9, 10 & 11 on the CHANNEL DELAYS page of the RS20i. Channel delays are configurable across the bottom of the screen.

________________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 12/29/12 at 9:03pm
post #154 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

Ok so now I am thoroughly flummoxed.
I do recall now that the delays/gains in Dirac are non-functional (why is that not noted in the damn manual?). However, the RS20i must have calculated the delays, as they are all populated in the delay screen. So I guess that's good...
Stephen - our set ups are very similar - I have two F113s in master mode on my front wall, but they are currently set as independent mono subs, not stereo. I am trying them at the suggested JL Audio settings with 12 db/octave @ 80hz for both hi and low filters... 24 db @ 120 hz seems really aggressive to me... And Dave, something definitely doesn't sound right if you have to drop subs by +17... Then again, your sub set up is pretty crazy!
When I configure Dirac, I definitely defeat bass management as has been spelled out previously, and re-engage once the calculations have been uploaded to the RS20i. So I'm confused as to why my subs are behaving so differently. I'm definitely doing something wrong - I just can't figure it out!
Carl - no, didn't mess with the screen, it just stopped communicating. Luckily I had saved all the basic settings, so I just had to re-run all the measurements. I too have learned the hard way!
I think I will re do everything one more time in the morning - I am most concerned about the static/distortion from the rear surrounds and what the source of that is. Perhaps I have a crossover set up incorrectly so I will crawl over that screen and see what the &$;/@ I did in there. I'm annoyed I didn't take the Dirac class 18 months ago when I should have!
Mike

Why would you set the subs to the JL audio settings. Shouldn't your mains low end extension and in room response dictate where you set the x-overs?
post #155 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

ANSWER: Dave you can set the delays for the subwoofers on channels 4,9, 10 & 11 on the OUTPUTS page of the RS20i. Channel delays are configurable across the bottom of the screen.
________________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Carl, the problem is that when when you run two subs together , you have to have them on the same channel so the way I am understanding it, separate delays cannot not be presently done.. DataSat needs allow more flexibility in the either the routing screen to allows EQ filters be assigned to the OUTPUTS (which is not possible) and not just the INPUTS, "0r" they need to allow more flexibility in the base management so you can assign two or more subs to several channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

ANSWER: There is no VU activity on channels 9, 10 & 11 when BM is switched OFF because there is no signal coursing thru those channels. That is, without BM being enabled you have no input to feed them. Putting a signal on those channels is the purpose of Bass Management.
Carl Huff

So how do you set it up to get a signal from all 16 channels without bass management engaged? (I realize dirac only works on 12 channels, but I would like the option of not using bass management to see how it sounds.)

Always appreciate the help, thanks.
post #156 of 1452
Dave - I'm trying the filters as JL Audio specified them for when using their subs with a processor with bass management. Just an experiment at this point, I'll play with it more tomorrow.

Carl, I'll re do Dirac again minus all filters, but do you also suggest turning off any parametric EQ changes from factory default? If so, should I turn the eq back on once the new Dirac settings are in place?

Thanks for all the help!
post #157 of 1452
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Carl, the problem is that when when you run two subs together , you have to have them on the same channel so the way I am understanding it, separate delays cannot not be presently done.. DataSat needs allow more flexibility in the either the routing screen to allows EQ filters be assigned to the OUTPUTS (which is not possible) and not just the INPUTS, "0r" they need to allow more flexibility in the base management so you can assign two or more subs to several channels.
So how do you set it up to get a signal from all 16 channels without bass management engaged? (I realize dirac only works on 12 channels, but I would like the option of not using bass management to see how it sounds.)
Always appreciate the help, thanks.

The routing table was originally intended to be used solely as a matrix to configure active crossovers and it works great for that! In the case of active crossovers you only want one instance of Dirac Live and one delay setting for that channel. That routing table was never intended to be used as a crosspoint switch for inputs and/ or summing channels for outputs. What you are looking to do requires a crosspoint switch that allows 1 to 'n' connections and Delays & Dirac filters for each. Clearly there are practical uses for such a thing and I do know from chats with them that the Datasat engineering crew has been thinking about how to create such a thing. This does not mean they have committed to providing such a thing but to say they are aware of the need.

Now after having said all that, I believe that the group of delays marked OUTPUT CHANNEL DELAYS on the bottom of the CHANNEL DELAYS page of the RS20i will give you the control over individual channel delay that you are looking for.

That's ... Home->Setup->Inputs->Output Preset->Channel Delays
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #158 of 1452
" ... So how do you set it up to get a signal from all 16 channels without bass management engaged? (I realize dirac only works on 12 channels, but I would like the option of not using bass management to see how it sounds.)"

Copy from channel 4 to the other sub channels. You will have one instance of Dirac Live (on channel #4) servicing all of the channels that are copied. You will end up with 'n' number of LFE channels. You can use the HI/ LO filters on each copied channel to band limit what is fed to them.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #159 of 1452
Quote:
Originally Posted by schlitzie View Post

... Carl, I'll re do Dirac again minus all filters, but do you also suggest turning off any parametric EQ changes from factory default? If so, should I turn the eq back on once the new Dirac settings are in place?!

Mike,

The default state for the RS20i from the factory is to have all filters ( ie: 3rd octave, PEQ and tone control filters) shut OFF. In my experience most installs only need the filters that are Dirac Live, unless of course the install includes active crossovers.

Using multiple filter sets in the signal chain grossly increases your chances of digital overload and digital clipping, which sounds absolutely horrible!
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #160 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

" ... So how do you set it up to get a signal from all 16 channels without bass management engaged? (I realize dirac only works on 12 channels, but I would like the option of not using bass management to see how it sounds.)"
Copy from channel 4 to the other sub channels. You will have one instance of Dirac Live (on channel #4) servicing all of the channels that are copied. You will end up with 'n' number of LFE channels. You can use the HI/ LO filters on each copied channel to band limit what is fed to them.
______________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Carl , can you tell me if I have done this right, see attachments.





And I thought I should show the EQ results of my room, before and afters.

My Center speaker.


And this is all 4 subs EQ'ed on a single channel.
post #161 of 1452
Mike - I think JL Audio's suggested settings are for 2 channel listening. The LFE channel receives signals up to 120Hz so for HT JL Audio's setting is cuttting out any signal between 80Hz to 120Hz. An aggressive roll off from 120Hz, I understand, helps reduces possible localisation of the subwoofers. Of course the proof is in the listening and we have the ability to experiment to find what we each like best.
Edited by stephenbr - 12/29/12 at 11:20pm
post #162 of 1452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Altho they are mounted to the chassis in same fashion, the channel cards in the RS20i are different from those in the AP20 and are not interchangeable.
Thanks for confirming the cards are of a new design. I'm interested to see what devices are being used, DAC, volume, preamp, etc. So a high res picture would be important!
post #163 of 1452
I assuming that the following little bit of info has also not been passed on...

After loading the Dirac filters from the software you must hard reset the RS20 before using the filters. If you don't you normally get a very unsatisfactory response and quite often crackling or static.

Your dealer of course should be ensuring that basic information like this is provided before letting you waste your time or potentially having a poor experience.
post #164 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

I assuming that the following little bit of info has also not been passed on...
After loading the Dirac filters from the software you must hard reset the RS20 before using the filters. If you don't you normally get a very unsatisfactory response and quite often crackling or static.
Your dealer of course should be ensuring that basic information like this is provided before letting you waste your time or potentially having a poor experience.
Hey Neil,
Carl (my dealer) Has informed me that everything needs to be reset via turning the unit off at the back of the machine after making any changes to the RS20i.

But, thanks for the info for the the thread, it is much appreciated.

Cheers.
Edited by JapanDave - 12/30/12 at 4:36am
post #165 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Let Dirac calibrate the 2/4 subs as mono then use REW to optimise delays and bass management. Perfect everytime but you need loop back enabled in REW to get the delays set correctly
How are you running REW to have the EQ applied to the out put signal?
post #166 of 1452
In not using REW for eq, just to analyse delay and level
post #167 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

In not using REW for eq, just to analyse delay and level
I did not mean that, I meant to say , how are you measuring the EQ'ed signal in REW from the RS20i?
post #168 of 1452
I prefer to connect to one of the analogue pairs then simply use the channel routing to send the signal where I need it to go
post #169 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

I prefer to connect to one of the analogue pairs then simply use the channel routing to send the signal where I need it to go
But that will not give you a post EQ'ed channel so you can get the in room response after the Dirac filters are implemented???
post #170 of 1452
I don't follow the question. If Dirac is enabled for the channel then you get the corrected response. If you want to view the response of each channel then it is easier to use the multichannel inputs of course and move the connection physically. This is not what I am normally interested in doing though.
post #171 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

I don't follow the question. If Dirac is enabled for the channel then you get the corrected response. If you want to view the response of each channel then it is easier to use the multichannel inputs of course and move the connection physically. This is not what I am normally interested in doing though.
If you are using the analog inputs, then you have to route each channel to either channel 1 or 2 which ever you are using. So if you do that , you will only ever get that channels EQ filter. The reason being is that the outputs don't have the EQ'ed applied to them, only the inputs.

Why I am asking this is b/c I want to be able to take an in room response sweep with the room EQ filters in place. Something which can not be done with this unit if I am not mistaken???
post #172 of 1452
Dave,

Your routing table looks good to me! It should give you the results that you are looking for.

Both the method that you are using and what Neil is promoting will copy channels. However the method that you are using is superior in that it allows for individual channel delays (his does not) and you have a neater wire bundle outside the RS20i chassis. What he is promoting duplicates what is easily done internal to the RS20i. I would consider using Neils' method as a fallback if I were running out of output channels, but since you are not using active crossovers and have 16 to work with that seems unlikely.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #173 of 1452
I re-ran Dirac once again with every setting at default. It does sound better, but I'm just not thrilled with the bass - It's good, but not great, so not sure of my next move. Pleased to report that the static is also gone - I think Neil had it right with reminding me to re-boot the unit, so many thanks there.

One question though - I made a mistake when setting up the bass channels, didn't configure them as I had originally planned with assigning the second sub to channel 4 - I have one sub set as channel 4 and the other as channel 9, and ran them independent of each other (in other words, my version of Dave's configuration page has the channels in a 45 degree downward slope, where channel 9 input corresponds to channel 9 output).

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/116876/


Can I move channel 9 output to channel 4 input (i.e. copy channel 4 dirac after the fact) or will that mess things up? Or is it best to just re-measure one more time after I set the subs up the "right" way?

Thanks everybody!
post #174 of 1452
"... Can I move channel 9 output to channel 4 input (i.e. copy channel 4 dirac after the fact) or will that mess things up? Or is it best to just re-measure one more time after I set the subs up the "right" way?"

ANSWER: It's always best practice to make new filters after moving channels and/ or cabinets.


"... I re-ran Dirac once again with every setting at default. It does sound better, but I'm just not thrilled with the bass - It's good, but not great, so not sure of my next move."

ANSWER: Great! You have established a working baseline. Save that set of Dirac filters as a uniquely named project to your computer hard drive. That way you can always go back to it should you have a need. Now edit the curve for your subs using the tools within the Dirac Live application, save that set with a unique name, load them to the RS20i and listen. Keep written notes that describe what you did changing each version. It is an iterative process. Save each change as a unique name. Make the saved project name the same as the filter set name you send to the RS20i. My convention is to use the customers name with a numeric suffix. In your case I would save the baseline filters as 'MIKE_00 and then MIKE_01, MIKE_02 (you get the idea) for each set that you send to the RS20i. The RS20i can hold upwards of 20 plus sets of Dirac filters. You can readily switch between filter sets and decide what you like best.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 12/30/12 at 12:15pm
post #175 of 1452
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Both the method that you are using and what Neil is promoting will copy channels. However the method that you are using is superior in that it allows for individual channel delays (his does not) and you have a neater wire bundle outside the RS20i chassis. What he is promoting duplicates what is easily done internal to the RS20i. I would consider using Neils' method as a fallback if I were running out of output channels, but since you are not using active crossovers and have 16 to work with that seems unlikely.

?

This is also exactly how I do it with the only possible area of confusion that I use Mono on the bass management page (presumably what is also being done here unless it is just straight LFE from all subs without BM applied)

I can then use REW to get exact time and level alignment on the group of subs prior to Dirac. Here the confusion may just be that I am not using REW to EQ, I am simply double checking the ETC results and relative levels of the sub responses to set baseline to Dirac the group of subs as a single entity.
post #176 of 1452
Happy New Year one and all.

Dave, can I ask why on your main channel 3 measurement you have your lpf set so low at 11khz. Surely this would be better set above 22khz or perhaps even disabled?
post #177 of 1452
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Happy New Year one and all.
Dave, can I ask why on your main channel 3 measurement you have your lpf set so low at 11khz. Surely this would be better set above 22khz or perhaps even disabled?

Happy New Year eveyone.

No reason really, I just left it at default. I am not sure I would be missing out on any content though? Thoughts?
post #178 of 1452
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Happy New Year eveyone.
No reason really, I just left it at default. I am not sure I would be missing out on any content though? Thoughts?

You probably wouldn't hear much (if any) difference but I would have set it to 12kHz and with a much slower roll-off and then listened intently. If dialogue sounds harsh back it down to the default. Dome drivers can be 'futzy'.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #179 of 1452
Might have found a couple of bugs... Then again, maybe I'm just doing stuff wrong as usual.

I decided to hook up an iPod to RS20i for music for a NY's Eve party... At first I just plugged a simple 2 channel analog cable in to the RS20 out of the headphone jack -- not pleasing, as I had suspected, but most concerning was the complete lack of bass from the subs either with BM engaged or not, so the lack of an LFE signal was not a factor. That, plus the rear surrounds were not firing even though I had them turned on -- And I triple checked all the settings to make sure I didn't have something goofy going on - all looked correct.
So I figured maybe it doesn't like analog signals so much - luckily I have an Onkyo iPod digital interface (kinda like a Wadia), so I broke that out and plugged it all in via digital coax. Good news - sounded fuller, rear surrounds were firing, but still no bass from the subs. Gotta play with it some more to really document the situation to understand the symptoms further.

I have also noticed that my screen does not time out no matter what it is set to - I currently have it set to dim at 1 minute, but it just stays on. Anybody else have this issue?

It is kind of odd since my AP20 before this was much less finicky - Granted I have really dug into this machine more than I did with the older box, but I am surprised by the variety and quantity of new issues I am running into.

Doubtful it is a bad unit -- I must be doing things wrong. I've been a DIY home theater guy for a long time with a multitude of different boxes in the rack over the years, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish there was a trained Datasat person that could come by and make everything better. Carl, are you going to be in Philadelphia any time soon?!

OK, I'll stop whining now -- Happy New Year all!
post #180 of 1452
Might have found a couple of bugs... Then again, maybe I'm just doing stuff wrong as usual.

I decided to hook up an iPod to RS20i for music for a NY's Eve party... At first I just plugged a simple 2 channel analog cable in to the RS20 out of the headphone jack -- not pleasing, as I had suspected, but most concerning was the complete lack of bass from the subs either with BM engaged or not, so the lack of an LFE signal was not a factor. That, plus the rear surrounds were not firing even though I had them turned on -- And I triple checked all the settings to make sure I didn't have something goofy going on - all looked correct.
So I figured maybe it doesn't like analog signals so much - luckily I have an Onkyo iPod digital interface (kinda like a Wadia), so I broke that out and plugged it all in via digital coax. Good news - sounded fuller, rear surrounds were firing, but still no bass from the subs. Gotta play with it some more to really document the situation to understand the symptoms further.

I have also noticed that my screen does not time out no matter what it is set to - I currently have it set to dim at 1 minute, but it just stays on. Anybody else have this issue?

It is kind of odd since my AP20 before this was much less finicky - Granted I have really dug into this machine more than I did with the older box, but I am surprised by the variety and quantity of new issues I am running into.

Doubtful it is a bad unit -- I must be doing things wrong. I've been a DIY home theater guy for a long time with a multitude of different boxes in the rack over the years, but I'm getting to the point that I really wish there was a trained Datasat person that could come by and make everything better. Carl, are you going to be in Philadelphia any time soon?!

OK, I'll stop whining now -- Happy New Year all!
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc)