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Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 9

post #241 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Bass Management is a compromise. If your mains run out of gas by 60 or 80Hz then you clearly will see a benefit from BM. But if your mains can reach comfortably to 40Hz or lower you should try running without BM. In my experience everything improves.
If the bass from the mains is uniform to all the seats of interest, I might agree. But how often is that the case in typical consumer rooms? The huge benefit of subwoofers in general and multiple subs in particular (all driven in mono) is that the seat-to-seat uniformity can be dramatically improved. Let alone the headroom that in JapanDave's case would be unlikely to be matched by any main speakers.
post #242 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The huge benefit of subwoofers in general and multiple subs in particular (all driven in mono) is that the seat-to-seat uniformity can be dramatically improved.
Improved uniformity makes it much easier to EQ (manual or automatic). Imagine moving the measurement mic from seat to seat and seeing similar peaks & dips. Would make Dirac very happy.
post #243 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kamenoff View Post

Gee..what speakers do you have? 35 Hz is low..real low
I use Quested speakers. See the in room frequency response below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

If the bass from the mains is uniform to all the seats of interest, I might agree. But how often is that the case in typical consumer rooms? The huge benefit of subwoofers in general and multiple subs in particular (all driven in mono) is that the seat-to-seat uniformity can be dramatically improved. Let alone the headroom that in JapanDave's case would be unlikely to be matched by any main speakers.
I am also lucky (or unlucky in a way, nobody to share this room with) that I only have to EQ for the main LP. The left and right speakers virtually have identical frequency response and the center is pretty close as well, same for the surrounds.

Here is the response of the center and one of the surrounds.



post #244 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Here is the response of the center and one of the surrounds.
Those are not strictly the frequency responses of the sound in any particular seat. Those curves confirm that Dirac has successfully inverted the computed error response (the "before" curve) in conformance with the desired target curve.

The error response is derived by sampling several locations (typ 9), and analyzing the nature of the direct and reflected sounds caused by room acoustics. If it detects certain errors such as nulls that it decides it cannot, or should not attempt to correct, they will not be included in the error response.

You'd have to measure the responses with more traditional tools to really know the response at a given seat.
post #245 of 1454
Thread Starter 
I will try and get a FR with REW or trueRTA. From memory it was still the same FR with those programs when I did it a while back.
post #246 of 1454
Thread Starter 
What are people's thoughts on putting in a device like minidisc to control the delays of the subs and then using Dirac to do the EQ'ing?
Or even using the minidisc to EQ the subs as well as do the delays and then run Dirac?
post #247 of 1454
Lol. Adding minidisc would be awesome but I doubt it helps your sub setup!

Delays are part of output settings and you can do them to 0.1ms per channel. By combining with individual channel trim in routing you have everything you need for ultra accurate setup without adding any extra boxes
post #248 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Lol. Adding minidisc would be awesome but I doubt it helps your sub setup!

Delays are part of output settings and you can do them to 0.1ms per channel. By combining with individual channel trim in routing you have everything you need for ultra accurate setup without adding any extra boxes
The problem being is that when you run all subs on the same channel to get mono , you can't get the delays set for each sub on that channel. This is something that Datasat has acknowledged and they have said that with future software upgrades this could be possible. But for now it is not.
post #249 of 1454
Dave, I'm guessing you mean miniDSP? If so, you don't need it because that functionality should be built into your RS29i.
post #250 of 1454
No delays are part of the output setup so you can have as many channels as you want on the same input but with different delays. This related to cross over setup for main channels which is why it lives in output.
post #251 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

No delays are part of the output setup so you can have as many channels as you want on the same input but with different delays. This related to cross over setup for main channels which is why it lives in output.

Are you saying that the delays are all functional is this configuration below? If so, I am golden!!!

post #252 of 1454
Yes that is exactly what I am saying!

Little tip, use the cross over I'd to number the subs 1-4 as it makes it even easier to identify them when you move over to the channel delay page.
post #253 of 1454
And the channel trims in the above image are where you have to do the levels for the individual subs which IS very annoying.

Levels are on the output but routing and delays are on the output.
post #254 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that tip Neil. Looks like I have what I want to do then, and no need for an external box.
post #255 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

And the channel trims in the above image are where you have to do the levels for the individual subs which IS very annoying.

Levels are on the output but routing and delays are on the output.

I did not quite follow what you are saying here??? Could you explain?
post #256 of 1454
Stupid iPhone.

Should say channel levels are on the input but delays and routing are part of the output profile.

Since the mono sub config is treated as one input channel by the rs20 you have to do individual channel trims to level match the subs and then use the level of channel 4 to match the group to the other speakers in the system.
post #257 of 1454
Thread Starter 
So you have to adjust the levels of all the subs channels output , even if you are putting them on the same input channel?
post #258 of 1454
That will depend entirely on your own system layout and is impacted by performance, boundary effects, physical proximity and more.
post #259 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

That will depend entirely on your own system layout and is impacted by performance, boundary effects, physical proximity and more.
What I mean to say is, as I have put all the subs on to input channel 4, are you saying that I need to adjust the levels of all the channels with subs, not just channel 4 to get uniform DB levels for all the subs? I was under the impression that if they were on input channel 4, all I had to do was adjust the channel 4 levels if I wanted to raise or lower all the subs levels?
post #260 of 1454
Dave,

Indeed. If you have all 4 subs on sub chan 4, then when you adjust the trim level in Audio Levels you'll adjust the level on all 4 subs.

But prior to this you need to ensure every sub is firing at the same spl at the MLP, independently. This could be done in two ways. Once you have pink noise playing in each sub individually you can use the gains on the subs to gain an even response or you can increase or decrease db volume in Routings and crossovers.
post #261 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

Dave,

Indeed. If you have all 4 subs on sub chan 4, then when you adjust the trim level in Audio Levels you'll adjust the level on all 4 subs.

But prior to this you need to ensure every sub is firing at the same spl at the MLP, independently. This could be done in two ways. Once you have pink noise playing in each sub individually you can use the gains on the subs to gain an even response or you can increase or decrease db volume in Routings and crossovers.
Yes, that is what I did first, to make sure the gain on the Amp was set to give each sub the same db's. I just got a bit confussed with the delays being for the output of each channel.

Going off on a tangent, Unless someone has figured out how to do this, I think DataSat needs to address the issue of not being about the measure the frequency response the system with the EQ applied.
post #262 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

If you have all 4 subs on sub chan 4, then when you adjust the trim level in Audio Levels you'll adjust the level on all 4 subs.

But prior to this you need to ensure every sub is firing at the same spl at the MLP, independently.

Note that unless all of the of the subs are placed symmetrically in a symmetrical room and the listener is at an axis of symmetry (I don't know if this is the case as I haven't been fully following this thread), this does not yield a predictable summed response.
post #263 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

Note that unless all of the of the subs are placed symmetrically in a symmetrical room and the listener is at an axis of symmetry (I don't know if this is the case as I haven't been fully following this thread), this does not yield a predictable summed response.
Hey Noah,

In my case for the time being, I have 4 subs on the front wall symmetrically placed with the MLP dead center of those subs on the horizontal plane. The two bottom subs are are exactly 141.34" away from the listeners ear (Laser measured to the center of the dust cap) and the two top subs are 161.41" away from the listeners ear. The below pic is of the front wall.

I measured each sub individually to adjust the levels so as they would be the same SPL from each driver. I hope that was the best way to go?

post #264 of 1454
You can verify by checking response at the listening with 1/2/3/4 subs; the output should increase across the passband every time you add one.

It looks like it will.
post #265 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

Stupid iPhone.

Should say channel levels are on the input but delays and routing are part of the output profile.

Since the mono sub config is treated as one input channel by the rs20 you have to do individual channel trims to level match the subs and then use the level of channel 4 to match the group to the other speakers in the system.

This is how I understand it:

Individual channel levels, delays and routing are all in the output profile. Overall group surround levels and surround delays are in the input profile.

Crossovers can be set in Dirac, Routing, and BM. I believe they all add together.

Individual input delays and output delays can be set separately via the Delay menu.

Input levels are set on the Levels menu. Output trims are set on the Routing menu.

Input digital levels are set in the Levels menu but only if the digital volume control is engaged. Have not tested the if the output level on the Routing menu will work with digital outputs.

Of course we can eq via Dirac, graphic or parametric.

Complicated? It certainly is.
Versatile and flexible. Absolutely.
post #266 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Going off on a tangent, Unless someone has figured out how to do this, I think DataSat needs to address the issue of not being about the measure the frequency response the system with the EQ applied.

For quick and rough measurements you can plug your mic into the XLR mic input on the back of the Datasat, place you mic in the LP, choose the EQ menu and send out pink noise. The Datasat screen will show you a 1/3 octave graphic frequency response. See the manual for more details.

Frequency response is only one of several parameters you want to measure. That is why you need a full measurement suite like REW.
post #267 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

A sort of related question. Usually the mix ratio of redirected bass and LFE is the normal +10 dB in favor of LFE (assuming a single sub). Some AV processors allow the user to adjust the mixing level of the LFE. For example, there were a lot of 5.1 music mixes released on SACD where the LFE is printed 10 dB hotter than standard, so these require no boost in the playback system. Is there an easy way to twiddle the LFE mixing ratio as an end user? As in make an "SACD" preset or the like?

On the Levels menu you can adjust the LFE channel (and the others) in .5dB steps, overall plus 10dB to minus 20dB. There is also a -10dB LFE setting on the decoder menu but it does not currently work in all scenarios but Datasat has promised to fix it.

Edit: corrected range thanks to djnickuk in following post.
Edited by GGA - 1/21/13 at 3:40pm
post #268 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

On the Levels menu you adjust the LFE channel (and the others) in .5dB steps, overall plus or minus 10dB. There is also a -10dB LFE setting on the encoder menu but it does not currently work in all scenarios but Datasat has promised to fix it.

Just to correct one point, in the levels menu you can plus 10 and minus 20.
post #269 of 1454
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post



Frequency response is only one of several parameters you want to measure. That is why you need a full measurement suite like REW.
Exactly, and that is what I was specifically referring to, the inability to take detailed measurements via a RTA program.
post #270 of 1454
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

Exactly, and that is what I was specifically referring to, the inability to take detailed measurements via a RTA program.

Actually,

The RTA built into the RS20i is a pretty good instrument as far as RTAs go. It meets the needs of traditional installers which is who it was targeting. But then again REW, OmniMic, TrueRTA, SpectraPLUS and Smaart software packages do a lot more than traditonal RTAs.
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Best Regards,
Carl Huff
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+) › Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc)