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Official DataSat RS20i thread. (Setup Tips, Questions,General Info, etc) - Page 29

post #841 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by djnickuk View Post

The unit plays back a 192/24 signal via HDMI absolutly fine. It will down res it to 96/24. If via coax then it will only play back in 2 channel. But not down resed.

Having said that, I haven't tried the latest firmware update, which bring full 16 channels of Dirac.

It's not a quick job to properly set the unit up. If done correctly with near field measurement for xover setting, sub time alignment ( rew ) and Dirac it should take a good 8-12 hours.

Having said that, a quick delay via physical distance measurement and spl levels can be achieved in under 5 mins and will show you what exactly its capable of!

Thanks for the information, it is the downsampling that I am not really interested in. I have friends and people I trust telling me how incredible their music is to finally hear it at full 172 and 192 resolution. I am not interested at being stuck at the lower resolution, if they have no guarentee they will give us 192.
post #842 of 1450
Well if you are a purist then the RS20i is perfect. As any purist would not want to listen to any 192/24 stereo source in any other many other than in stereo. I'm which case the rs20i will allow you to bypass the processing stages and will pass thru direct 192/24 untouched straight to its internal dacs or to its digital outs.

I have been informed a few times by Datasat that they will be moving to full 192 support. The main issue is with Dirac currently being limited to 96. The RS20i is fully capable of 192 playback.

I'm pretty certain you'll be blown away by the rs20i. I recently watched Oblivion thru mine and yes, the bass is epic. Serious house shaking, foundation rattling bass.
post #843 of 1450
Maestro2be - in respsct to any issues/little bugs with the RS20i, from my use and perspective there are no concerns with this unit and, more importantly, Datasat has shown they are very responsive in providing updates and seeking opportunities to keep their product at/near the top of the heap.
post #844 of 1450
Quote:
Being at this game a long time and being the wiser for it, it is precisely the word 'updates' that us keeping me away from this piece. What the heck is there to update??? The source material is unchanged for many years. It's just not quite finished... That's why there are updates. Too much dough and too much time to **** around with updates every few months. Just give me next years product today or send an update when the source material requires it.

.. But that's just me. I'm unhappy with this general trend in the industry.
Edited by thebland - 8/28/13 at 5:21pm
post #845 of 1450
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Being at this game a long time and being the wiser for it, it is precisely the word 'updates' that us keeping me away from this piece. What the heck is there to update??? The source material is unchanged for many years. It's just not quite finished... That's why there are updates. Too much dough and too much time to **** around with updates every few months. Just give me next years product today or send an update when the source material requires it.

.. But that's just me. I'm unhappy with this general trend in the industry.
In regards to the RS20i ,just two words for you, "Your loss.". smile.gif
post #846 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

In regards to the RS20i ,just two words for you, "Your loss.". smile.gif

When I was a younger man, I'd be into this update thing but now that I am more keen on my personal time and find I now prefer less fuss on my end and want to stock my theater with 'finished' products. I'll sit back and watch and when it is polished, then I'll look into it then.biggrin.gif
post #847 of 1450
Updates are now really for adding features, I can't really think of any real bugs on the unit anymore. And updates require perhaps 3 button presses and it starts the 5 mins download and install process. It really couldn't be any more simple. Even my mom could do it.
post #848 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Being at this game a long time and being the wiser for it, it is precisely the word 'updates' that us keeping me away from this piece. What the heck is there to update??? The source material is unchanged for many years. It's just not quite finished... That's why there are updates. Too much dough and too much time to **** around with updates every few months. Just give me next years product today or send an update when the source material requires it.

.. But that's just me. I'm unhappy with this general trend in the industry.

Yes stay away of the best worldwide Processor...So what is the best for you?
post #849 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by MV_Cinema View Post

Yes stay away of the best worldwide Processor...So what is the best for you?

I don't know who crowned it the world's greatest processor but for a number of reasons, it's not for me. When I read the first hand reviews of respected members here (e.g. Maestro, Tony) who personally auditioned it.. and dismissed it, it certainly gave me pause. The thread reads much like the headache the poor saps with the Anthem D2 processor (all these new features in this update... and bugs). Too many software updates for a device that needs to do a simple task. I need a finished piece. I've been through the 'wait for the next update' game and I'm not doing that anymore.

Dan, who's quite qualified to give an excellent opinion given his knowledge and having both in his showroom, has a slight favor towards Trinnov over the Datasat. I mean all an SSP needs to do is play Blu Ray soundtracks and 96/24 concerts... not to difficult (or so it seems). Moreover, I've heard the Trinnov a number of times and think it is unique to the hobby. In doing my own room correction well before it became mainstream, I've had good luck picking winners and Curt Hoyt is really a great, smart resource and the piece is really on it's own level in home theater in my own research. I haven't heard DIRAC but even if I did, it is the DATASAT box that would keep me from jumping on even if I favored its sound.

DIRAC itself seems to be well received but not in the DATASAT box... or, at least, not yet. Moreover, with all the Theta bugs, not in that box either. Likely, if the DIRAC update materializes for them, a whole new set of bugs may come to be and who knows what (if any) compromises are made to the DIRAC software. Again, don't want to wait on the manufacturer to fix annoyances after investing in their product(s).

I'm going to try the Trinnov MC and change out my speakers and subs and do some limited design changes in my room to best optimize for Trinnov processing. Then, I'm confident, I will be where I need to be. Right now, I am still considering the speakers and sub options.
post #850 of 1450
Hmm ...

Bland, you've missed the point.

In this market a 'finished product' is an obsolete product. That is why after 18 years the Theta Casa is still viable. Would you spend 18 grand on a product that could not be upfitted to support new and emerging technologies??? I wouldn't!

When the RS20i platform was designed a few short years ago the latest decoders had not been invented and 3D could only be seen in a commercial theater. At the time HDMI was at rev 1.3. However 1.3 had some shortcomings (problems??) and along comes 1.3a and then 1.3b. Oh you want 3D television?? Along comes 1.4 and then 1.4a and 1.4b. If the RS20i had been 'finished' when it initially shipped it would not work reliably (if at all) with half of the HDMI products in use today.

If a product is to not be field disposable and keep it's value it must be field upgradable. The RS20i was purposely designed to be robust and field upgradable. That is what the expansion slots on the back of the chassis are about. And that's what the 'easy firmware upgrade over the internet' thing is about.

So no, the RS20i is not a static product. It has evolved and changed since those first units shipped such a short while ago and it will continue to change. And that's a good thing because guess what, I just got notice that there soon will be HDMI 2.0. HDMI 2.0 supports up to 32 channels of audio! Altho today the RS20i only supports 16 channels it could be scaled to handle 32, and that's because the product was purposely designed to change and evolve. And when and if that happens it will be a simple field upgrade.

I don't expect that you will be finding many RS20i chassis at the recycling center like you will so many 'finished' products.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 9/5/13 at 1:17pm
post #851 of 1450
Another quick point ...

"... I haven't heard DIRAC but even if I did, it is the DATASAT box that would keep me from jumping on even if I favored its sound.

DIRAC itself seems to be well received but not in the DATASAT box... or, at least, not yet. Moreover, with all the Theta bugs, not in that box either. Likely, if the DIRAC update materializes for them, a whole new set of bugs may come to be and who knows what (if any) compromises are made to the DIRAC software. Again, don't want to wait on the manufacturer to fix annoyances after investing in their product(s) ..."


If Dirac Live has been well received it had to have been on a Datasat box. That's because Dirac Live to date is not shipping on anyone else's product! And if you have been to a commercial theater and watched a movie with a DTS / Datasat sound track you most likely heard it with Dirac Live applied. The AP20 (commercial cinema version of the RS20i) has become an industry reference for quality audio.

Once other products containing Dirac Live begin shipping, Dirac Live from product to product will sound very much the same. What you will hear will be differences in hardware implementation. That's because the software that creates those filters comes from Dirac Research. The licensee cannot tinker with that. The licensee builds runtime hardware that conforms to a spec provided by Dirac Research. If you hear a difference it will be from the analog chain that is the D to A conversion. In view of that, there is no reason to expect annoyances and bugs in a product containing Dirac Live.
_________________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
Edited by Carl_Huff - 9/5/13 at 1:02pm
post #852 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

If Dirac Live has been well received it had to have been on a Datasat box. That's because Dirac Live to date is not shipping on anyone else's product! And if you have been to a commercial theater and watched a movie with a DTS / Datasat sound track you most likely heard it with Dirac Live applied. The AP20 (commercial cinema version of the RS20i) has become an industry reference for quality audio.

Dirac Live also runs on a PC. Throw in a Blu Ray drive, Jriver and a and Lynx MCH card and you're in business (at least in theory - I never got my HTPC to work properly).
post #853 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post

Hmm ... Bland. you've missed the point.

In this market a 'finished product' is an obsolete product. That is why after 18 years the Theta Casa is still viable. Would you spend 18 grand on a product that could not be upfitted to support new and emerging technologies??? I wouldn't!

When the RS20i platform was designed a few short years ago the latest decoders had not been invented and 3D could only be seen in a commercial theater. At the time HDMI was at rev 1.3. However 1.3 had some shortcomings (problems??) and along comes 1.3a and then 1.3b. Oh you want 3D television?? Along comes 1.4 and then 1.4a and 1.4b. If the RS20i had been 'finished' when it initially shipped it would not work reliably (if at all) with half of the HDMI products in use today.

If a product is to not be field disposable and keep it's value it must be field upgradable. The RS20i was purposely designed to be robust and field upgradable. That is what the expansion slots on the back of the chassis are about. And that's what the 'easy firmware upgrade over the internet' thing is about.

So no, the RS20i is not a static product. It has evolved and changed since those first units shipped such a short while ago and it will continue to change. And that's a good thing because guess what, I just got notice that there soon will be HDMI 2.0. HDMI 2.0 supports up to 32 channels of audio! Altho today the RS20i only supports 16 channels it could be scaled to handle 32, and that's because the product was purposely designed to change and evolve. And when and if that happens it will be a simple field upgrade.

I don't expect that you will be finding many RS20i chassis at the recycling center like you will so many 'finished' products.
____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff

Thanks, Carl.

Agreed. I should've been more precise in that I don't want to but an obsolete product but a product that plays all of today's surround modes immediately on purchase without the need for software updates to improve performance or fix bugs that should've been ferreted out before release. Shouldn't the state of the art performance be set on release? It used to be that way and without singling out you it's a trend in the industry I find myself uncomfortable with (again, I'm not trying to single you out).. If I'm paying $20K I want a product with finished software that is state of the art for all of today's Blu Ray soundtracks and hardware updatable. But yes, if a new Dolby mode comes to be, I'd like that, too... but minus updates to fix bugs that should've been caught earlier.

I surely understand the advantage of hardware updates (e.g. your reference to HDMI1.4 from 1.3, now 2.0). I think that is a bonus for sure and you should be lauded for allowing such flexibility.

That said, I think the Theta reference is a poor example in bolstering your argument as it was the last piece on the planet to get HDMI connections and only 4 at that plus yearly promises of it soon to be implemented*. The owners had to wait over 5 years since the introduction of HDMI and Blu Ray to be able to decode the lossless tracks on their beloved CBIII. That's like losing five years of your life in home theater years... I assume you'll do better biggrin.gif. That's not state of the art, that is failure. Moreover, I believe it is limited in output and cannot do 9.1 or 11.1 which seems to be where things are moving.
(*Ironically, it appears the old playbook has been resurrected with the long promise for a DIRAC update).


I appreciate your answers. Thanks.
post #854 of 1450
"Dirac Live also runs on a PC. Throw in a Blu Ray drive, Jriver and a and Lynx MCH card and you're in business (at least in theory - I never got my HTPC to work properly)."

Yea, it does. I was referring to turnkey product solutions that are AVRs and similar hardware.

The software that you used to generate the filters for your PC is the same as will be used by all Dirac Live licensees going forward. The only difference being the runtime engine will be realized in their hardware rather than a virtual driver in your PC. It is the aggravation of a HTPC that makes dedicated hardware interesting.

____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #855 of 1450
Bland,

As a product engineer and consumer I share your frustration. HDMI only exists to implement Digital Rights Management. In my view DRM gets the consumer absolutely nothing. There is nothing happening on an HDMI connection that is non DRM that cannot be done equally well on legacy connectors. I personally have a problem with a stubby little connector that so easily comes loose and falls just out of reach behind my equipment rack. HDMI embodies the worst of what this country is about - big money lobbyist!! There I have said it! <<CMD: Soap box mode = OFF>>

There are 700 plus licensees of HDMI connectivity out there. With that many OEMs building product there will always be interoperability problems. Many of the firmware patches for the RS20i have been about adding support for some obscure product that only a few customers will ever see.
_____________
Best Regards,
Carl Huff
post #856 of 1450
Carl,

I don't post often but this is one of the areas that I agree things should just work out of the box. Too much equipment today is shipped with the need to be updated on arrival to get it to work properly. If it is adding features that is one thing but HDMI 1.4 has been out for 4 years, probably the longest of any HDMI revisions. One should be able to plug in a source(s), processor and display, go through its set up and voila have it work. Heck, even if they don't do its set up I should be able to get picture and sound and decode all formats. I don't know how the average consumer deals with this stuff. Almost every component needs an update out of the box, Blu-ray players, processors, displays, etc. It is ridiculous. You can spend hours doing these updates. This becomes even more frustrating when someone buys a premium piece.

OTOH, I will say HDMI is a joke of a standard. I mean who thought of a standard with non-locking connectors, short cable lengths and inability to do field terminations? We already had a connection standard that could do all these it is called fibre optic, there was no need to re-invent the wheel. DRM/ copy protection for a cable standard, who thought of this? Did they used to work with VCRs? I mean NOBODY has pirated stuff by playing one device and recording on another for decades. They get the data off the hard drive or the disc and crack the encryption. And how about the number of HDMI versions, there has only been a dozen or so versions in less than a dozen years. Here is another stupid thing about HDMI. Nobody can predict that higher resolutions, bit depth or frame rates might be desired in the future and build that into the standard? When's HDMI 2.1 due?

I will give manufacturers a pass for needing to update to deal with some HDMI compatibilities. But, as consumers sometimes we just want things to work without any hassle:)

And as stated you are hardly alone in this arena.

Regards.
post #857 of 1450
RS20i decodes all bluray and DVD audio formats out of the box and includes both DTS NeoX and PLIIz and x. That means 9.1 and 11.1 are as fully supported as you can currently get in the consumer market.

Several of the firmware updates have been to address hdmi issues specifically found in direct tv stbs. I guess owners of those boxes will be grateful for improvements made in an expensive piece to make their systems more reliable. Many sources in hdmi land are still bug fests and it is cool that DataSat take steps to quickly work around these issues wherever possible.
post #858 of 1450
Thread Starter 
In my eyes, the RS20i right now is a complete unit and up to date with the latest of everything that it offers. I don't see the evidence where the "RS20i is not finished" comments are founded. Just my 2 cents.
post #859 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

In my eyes, the RS20i right now is a complete unit and up to date with the latest of everything that it offers. I don't see the evidence where the "RS20i is not finished" comments are founded. Just my 2 cents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceenhad View Post

RS20i decodes all bluray and DVD audio formats out of the box and includes both DTS NeoX and PLIIz and x. That means 9.1 and 11.1 are as fully supported as you can currently get in the consumer market.

Several of the firmware updates have been to address hdmi issues specifically found in direct tv stbs. I guess owners of those boxes will be grateful for improvements made in an expensive piece to make their systems more reliable. Many sources in hdmi land are still bug fests and it is cool that DataSat take steps to quickly work around these issues wherever possible.

Good to know. I know the thread is nearly 2 years old and I've pagged through much of it. I have no doubts it is a competent unit and good to know owners feel it has finally 'arrived'. I assume there are no lock ups, hangs, etc? Of course, I use Directv but it seems like they will work all out with such. Anyone here running 11.1 and try these various new modes?

Does this unit output digitally? IS Datatsat going to have a demo at CEDIA?
post #860 of 1450
Yes, the RS20i has digi out via aes/ebu.

I have 9.1 setup using front heights and the envelopment is just something one has to hear. Never short of jaw dropping. I do have speakers in place for when auro 3d is implemented on the RS20i.

And it has never locked up or hung. Coming from the AP20s professional heritage, its built to run continuously and in high heat environments such as found in commercial cinemas. It's been the most stable pro I have ever had. Even the trinnov mc I had needed software updates and hung twice while I had it.
post #861 of 1450
Yes it does seem the RS20 is a complete product now but when I looked at it last winter they were still waiting for the Dolby card for the newer Dolby and DTS formats. Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD had been out for quite some time and I wasn't about to invest this much money in a product that wasn't complete and was going to need an update, even if the update was free. These are features I could get in a HTIB and I don't want to be beta tester if I am paying this price. I'm not saying that Datasat is not delivering a polished product but with so much stuff today that isn't polished and the consumers being guinea pigs why would one take a chance. We just want things to work without any hassle.

BTW, I will probably look at an RS20 again as it seems ready for prime time now but it wasn't last winter IMHO.
post #862 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttlnb View Post

Yes it does seem the RS20 is a complete product now but when I looked at it last winter they were still waiting for the Dolby card for the newer Dolby and DTS formats. Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby True HD had been out for quite some time and I wasn't about to invest this much money in a product that wasn't complete and was going to need an update, even if the update was free. These are features I could get in a HTIB and I don't want to be beta tester if I am paying this price. I'm not saying that Datasat is not delivering a polished product but with so much stuff today that isn't polished and the consumers being guinea pigs why would one take a chance. We just want things to work without any hassle.

BTW, I will probably look at an RS20 again as it seems ready for prime time now but it wasn't last winter IMHO.

+1
post #863 of 1450
The delay was licensing by Dolby- because Datasat is both a competitor (commercial cinema) and licensee (HT). Dolby was dragging their feet a little. This is also why AP20s are no longer supported for HT use at all, and Datasat pushed to get those home units swapped to RS20s
post #864 of 1450
Dave,

Are Quested speakers, like Dave's or the LT-20 model active with enclosed amplification?

Thanks!
post #865 of 1450
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

Dave,

Are Quested speakers, like Dave's or the LT-20 model active with enclosed amplification?

Thanks!

The LT-20 seems to be a new direction that Quested are taking and they certainly are the Active type. Mine are the traditional soft dome tweeter types and I had them custom made as well. If my understanding is correct , mine are still active speakers as I need an amp for each of the tweeters , mid and woofer of each speaker, only I specified to the Quested that I wanted the amp in another room.
If I am not mistaken , the speakers use the same tweeter and mid as in the speakers that Hans Zimmer uses, only it does not have that 5" second mid cone driver b/c these speakers are 4 way monitors. BTW, all of quested custom monitors including the one below are actively crossed over.





But , the smaller near field monitors are all passive cross overs I believe.
Edited by JapanDave - 9/7/13 at 5:11am
post #866 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

The LT-20 seems to be a new direction that Quested are taking and they certainly are the Active type. Mine are the traditional soft dome tweeter types and I had them custom made as well. If my understanding is correct , mine are still active speakers as I need an amp for each of the tweeters , mid and woofer of each speaker, only I specified to the Quested that I wanted the amp in another room.
If I am not mistaken , the speakers use the same tweeter and mid as in the speakers that Hans Zimmer uses, only it does not have that 5" second mid cone driver b/c these speakers are 4 way monitors. BTW, all of quested custom monitors including the one below are actively crossed over.





But , the smaller near field monitors are all passive cross overs I believe.

How do you like yours? In my own search for new speakers, I'm looking at these and PHC and some others. I'd love to hear these in person. I'm even thinking of going to CEDIA in a couple weeks. I wonder if they are going to have a room(s).

I know compression drivers are indestructible but am not convinced on the Quested tweeters (not singling Quested out in particular but the tweeter type in general). Have you blown any??

Are your speakers considered nearfield or midfield?

Thanks!
post #867 of 1450
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

How do you like yours? In my own search for new speakers, I'm looking at these and PHC and some others. I'd love to hear these in person. I'm even thinking of going to CEDIA in a couple weeks. I wonder if they are going to have a room(s).

I know compression drivers are indestructible but am not convinced on the Quested tweeters (not singling Quested out in particular but the tweeter type in general). Have you blown any??

Are your speakers considered nearfield or midfield?

Thanks!
They are considered midfield and I love them. Did you read what Roger had to say about them when he listened to them in my room? My opinion on them is that they are very detailed, yet you can listen to them for hours without ear fatigue. I seem to have very sensitive ears and get ear fatigue very quickly.

I have yet to blow a tweeter and the fact that mine are rated at 123dB @ 1m (38hz to 20,000hz, +/- 2 dB) means plenty of head room. The speakers I have are the smallest of the active line up in Quested range (That is not to mean they are small) and anything above mine are rated for more dB's. The ones Hans Zimmer uses are rated at 138dB @ 1m (20hz to 20,000hz, +/- 2 dB), so I am guessing the tweeters can take a fair pounding when it is hardest to get the dB's at 20hz's.
post #868 of 1450
I think Roger personally favours Hanz Zimmers over the LT, We have the lt-deployment stopped right now as Customs is not releasing the cinema reference the 16 channel hose to feed the crossovers and rack casters and screws. Bec ause of this being held in customs for 3 days we have Curt Hoyt helping out other general elements of the installation.

I did find out from Carl that what appears to be a mid range driver on the LT 20 is actually an 1 1/2 dome. go figure. Apparently Contrary To Roger Questeds prediction (that my room ramping up back tapered would create an extreme high pressure zone modes). The ere are no bass modes at allk ( I was saying all along there would n't be any because it is a reverse trapagon). So apparently the left and right LT-20's channels are now sounding where quested is permitting Curt to take a listen tomorrow morning. They think I must be a hypercritical monster or something because the amount of work that Ollie is putting into the LT-20 installation is notable.

Stay tuned on Albiorix... for more Quested series developments.
post #869 of 1450
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

I think Roger personally favours Hanz Zimmers over the LT, We have the lt-deployment stopped right now as Customs is not releasing the cinema reference the 16 channel hose to feed the crossovers and rack casters and screws. Bec ause of this being held in customs for 3 days we have Curt Hoyt helping out other general elements of the installation.

I did find out from Carl that what appears to be a mid range driver on the LT 20 is actually an 1 1/2 dome. go figure. Apparently Contrary To Roger Questeds prediction (that my room ramping up back tapered would create an extreme high pressure zone modes). The ere are no bass modes at allk ( I was saying all along there would n't be any because it is a reverse trapagon). So apparently the left and right LT-20's channels are now sounding where quested is permitting Curt to take a listen tomorrow morning. They think I must be a hypercritical monster or something because the amount of work that Ollie is putting into the LT-20 installation is notable.

Stay tuned on Albiorix... for more Quested series developments.
How do you like the LT 20 compared to the Hans Zimmer type speaker? Quested are very professional and helped me tremendously when I was choosing speakers, not to mention the help I received after I had bought them.
post #870 of 1450
Quote:
Originally Posted by JapanDave View Post

How do you like the LT 20 compared to the Hans Zimmer type speaker? Quested are very professional and helped me tremendously when I was choosing speakers, not to mention the help I received after I had bought them.

I'm interested as well... What a project!
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