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tweeter speaker wire - Page 5

post #121 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

You seem fixated on this steel braid thingy...
RG-6 is a generic, it can have copper core, copper plated steel core, copper braid, aluminum braid, steel messenger wire outside, aluminum foil with copper braid shield...many different flavors.
A steel core wire with copper plating will have added inductance in the audio realm due to permeability. 15 nH per foot is the mu=1 point, multiply that by the permeability for whatever mu the core actually has, then drop it for skin effect.
A steel braid, if there, has no effective inductive increase per foot as a consequence of the cancellation of fields and the distribution of current density caused by the aspect ratio of the shield thickness to circumference.
The bottom line is, let him try what he wants, doesn't hurt anybody.
jn

You seem to be an expert on electrical properties and physics. I posed a simple question. Assuming a solid copper core, is there physical and/or electrical considerations using RG6 with a steel braid as opposed to a copper braid? Answer the question.

I never mentioned copper clad steel core vs. solid copper core.

In your opinion.... if you don't have FM or AC interference, does using RG6 have any benefit as opposed to "normal" speaker wire?

OTOH, I totally agree. The OP should just experiment and use what works best to his perception.
post #122 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

You seem to be an expert on electrical properties and physics.
Hey, any 12 year old with google can look like an expert..Perhaps that's me??wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I posed a simple question. Assuming a solid copper core, is there physical and/or electrical considerations using RG6 with a steel braid as opposed to a copper braid? Answer the question.

Already did.

Here it is again..
Quote:
A steel braid, if there, has no effective inductive increase per foot as a consequence of the cancellation of fields and the distribution of current density caused by the aspect ratio of the shield thickness to circumference.
A copper braid with the same aspect ratio, will also contribute no added inductance to the cable. Seemed clear to me...(yah, it's not a simple subject, I try..)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

I never mentioned copper clad steel core vs. solid copper core.
I know. I was pointing out how RG-6 is a generic term for a whole lotta different wire construction. I've tried to solder aluminum braid (not easy), but I've not actually seen nor used steel braid rg-6.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

In your opinion.... if you don't have FM or AC interference, does using RG6 have any benefit as opposed to "normal" speaker wire?
I do not expect the OP to hear any difference. But if he does (either real or imagined), that's just fine with me. It will have different distributed parameters, but a discussion of t-line distributed parameters and midband delay based on reflection coefficients at 1 to 5Khz is just a tad beyond the OP's question, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

OTOH, I totally agree. The OP should just experiment and use what works best to his perception.
Agreed. As you can see, he's just asking questions. Laymen without an EE to their name can only search the web for this stuff, when they come in with questions couched in stuff they read on the web, sometimes it's important to be very tolerant of the level of the questions. Like the cross-connected coax via AA.

jn
post #123 of 170
Thread Starter 
Hi Sam
The quote was from me ,not you,but I believe the sentiment to be yours.
If you have an idea for cable that would be better for my tweeter?
post #124 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

cable that would be better for my tweeter?

Cables really don't get better. The only difference you can make is to make them worse. You can be lucky (or planning) in a way that the worse part of it suits the application, but if we're talking hinder free transmission - the only thing that would win over a regular copper wire would be a superconductor and I'd still want to blindtest it for audibility.
post #125 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Cables really don't get better. The only difference you can make is to make them worse. You can be lucky (or planning) in a way that the worse part of it suits the application, but if we're talking hinder free transmission - the only thing that would win over a regular copper wire would be a superconductor and I'd still want to blindtest it for audibility.

Oh, trust me...superconductors would not be better.

First, you cannot get away from LC = 1034 (epsilon)

Then, the warm to cold transitions are not nice at all.

Then there's the issue of frostbite and oxygen deficiency.

jn
post #126 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Then, the warm to cold transitions are not nice at all.
Then there's the issue of frostbite and oxygen deficiency.

Oh, I was referring to the future point where we have superconduction at room temperature ( the Nobel prize for it is a given ).
post #127 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Oh, I was referring to the future point where we have superconduction at room temperature ( the Nobel prize for it is a given ).
We already have room temperature superconductors.

Problem is, the room is very, very cold..

jn
post #128 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

We already have room temperature superconductors.
Problem is, the room is very, very cold..

I've tried -42C, if it's colder than that - count me out!
post #129 of 170
According to the always-correct Wikipedia, the warmest critical temp they list for a superconductor is 134 Kelvin, or -218 Fahernheit (-139 Celcius)

Pretty chilly.
post #130 of 170
Thread Starter 
On the issue for my need of education:

First jns' dirty harry quote.
Next, I have found that I and others are pretty much a danger to themselves and others in the first few years of their education.
I have a few hobbies and don't have the time or intellect to go much further than the fun and magical part.
I am just looking to have a "Chat" with those that can "Lead". (jn quote)

If I go to a different forum the variables are too great ---here it's lamp cord and worse ---there it's ???.

So, will someone take a shot at explaining what a voice coil needs in the wire or space around the wire to reproduce the amps output
post #131 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

On the issue for my need of education:
So, will someone take a shot at explaining what a voice coil needs in the wire or space around the wire to reproduce the amps output
You have asked an ambigiuous question. I assume you meant the space around the wire which connects the voice coil to the amplifier, and not the space around the voice coil.

To get the voice coil to move requires current flow through it. That current is delivered by the two conductors which connect the coil leads to the amp terminals. That hard conductive path is needed in order to allow the current to flow. They do not rely on insulation to do this. To prevent the wires from connecting to one another (shorting), insulation is used. They could simply be spaced apart and bare, but that is not practical.
The voice coil needs nothing else in order to function.

The type of wire, single conductor, coax, zip, twisted pair, will all function in essentially the same fashion, that of allowing the current to flow. Many people claim that some special "thing" related to the type of wire will make an audible difference. Many claim it doesn't or cannot.

For somebody just starting in this hobby, it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of content available on the internet. You are in that boat.

As long as you do nothing dangerous, play to your hearts content, swapping wires, moving speakers, adjusting room acoustics..and listen. Your preferences are your own.

But I recommend you ask on forums such as this one before you part with large quantities of cash for silly things which do nothing, PT Barnum stated it best.

Cables will make a difference at some level, but the question remains how much, and is it significant to you.

If you are welcomed with hostility in response to your questions, just go elsewhere. Life is too short.

jn
post #132 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

According to the always-correct Wikipedia, the warmest critical temp they list for a superconductor is 134 Kelvin, or -218 Fahernheit (-139 Celcius)
Pretty chilly.

always-correct Wikipedia..now, that's funny.

I've tossed around for years the notion of fixing the entries in wiki on E/M t-lines and non inductive resistors..but haven't considered the effort worthwhile.

No matter what material we use, we always seem to go to 4.5 Kelvin, or 1.8K. You can't get serious** current capability at critical temp.

jn

** serious being 2 kiloamps in a 20 guage wire.
post #133 of 170
Thread Starter 
The answer to my question is much better than the question. I worried about it after I asked.

I guess I could use a little more education to at least ask clearer questions.

I read the other thread yesterday on speaker cables and now understand why some were already wound up. I had wondered why people didn't address the tweeter issue, only heavy awg.
post #134 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

You have asked an ambigiuous question. I assume you meant the space around the wire which connects the voice coil to the amplifier, and not the space around the voice coil.
To get the voice coil to move requires current flow through it. That current is delivered by the two conductors which connect the coil leads to the amp terminals. That hard conductive path is needed in order to allow the current to flow. They do not rely on insulation to do this. To prevent the wires from connecting to one another (shorting), insulation is used. They could simply be spaced apart and bare, but that is not practical.
The voice coil needs nothing else in order to function.
The type of wire, single conductor, coax, zip, twisted pair, will all function in essentially the same fashion, that of allowing the current to flow. Many people claim that some special "thing" related to the type of wire will make an audible difference. Many claim it doesn't or cannot.
For somebody just starting in this hobby, it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of content available on the internet. You are in that boat.
As long as you do nothing dangerous, play to your hearts content, swapping wires, moving speakers, adjusting room acoustics..and listen. Your preferences are your own.
But I recommend you ask on forums such as this one before you part with large quantities of cash for silly things which do nothing, PT Barnum stated it best.
Cables will make a difference at some level, but the question remains how much, and is it significant to you.
If you are welcomed with hostility in response to your questions, just go elsewhere. Life is too short.
jn

+1

In general, during your experimental stage, try not to spend more than you can be fully comfortable with on accessories like wire.

Be aware that "i heard a difference" is not equal to "the new wire made it sound different." Just like 'my pain ended" does not mean "the placebo is an effective pain reliever.

IMO (or at least for me IME) it's a p!ss poor listener who doesn't hear things differently when playing the same thing over with zero changes. Maybe it's in part being a musician, but I promise you I got quite a few listens into Dark Side of the Moon, WIsh You Were Here (more my fave Floyd although who can pass up "several Species, etc. from Ummagumma, but I digress) or even Sgt Pepper's before I stopped hearing new nuances. I'll occasionally identify some little thing in an album I've heard for years, even now. IMO because hearing involves brain and auditory system, some of what and how we hear depends on our attitude when we listen, and some depends on how we foucs our attention. Without a doubt all the layers of Money (at least all that my then-system could reporduce) hit my ears every time I listened. But I didn't notice everything all at once . . . and IME, once I "hear" a new detail, it's always there (unless it's revealed or masked by a significant frequency response difference between two systems.

Moreover, for those who are highly attentive (and AFAIK, that means not me) you'll get a slightly different frequency balance through the crossover region between tweeter and mid/bass if you move a few inches because the wavelengths are short and small changes make a difference in how things add or subtract in the region where both have significant output.
post #135 of 170
Thread Starter 
You have already said that I probably will not hear a difference between a single coax going to a speaker and the double coax with the braid attached only to the amp chassis and speaker end of the braid open.
I will assume that to be true.
Using the double example -- is there a best ( not value) awg or would too large be as good as just enough to carry the current?
On the listening side ---one of the differences I notice with wires is the size of the sound stage. This is also greatly affected by timing issues--- where I sit --crossover design---room reflection --phase issues. Anyway wire might come into play?
post #136 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

You have already said that I probably will not hear a difference between a single coax going to a speaker and the double coax
You are missing out on something. It's the triple coax where the magic starts to happen.
post #137 of 170
IMO, absent trable rolloff caused by high capacitance, the only time a cable should have an audible effect is if it is undersized, adding significantly to the effective output impedance of the amplifier. And that's only going to make a difference if the amp had a highish output impedance already and the speakers happen to have a difficult to drive (ie drops low) impedance. Then you can get audible frequency response anomalies. You can see this kind of thing in Stereophile's tests of power amps, where they use a "simulated speaker load" and often show som quarter to half decibel departures from flat. Adding significant resistance via the cable makes that worse.

On the other hand, if you have, say, a passive electromagnetic guitar pickup, which has inductance and capacitance of its own (ie will have a resonant frequency tuned by the combination of those factors) a guitar cable's capacitance can change the tuning of the resonant peak (generally lowering it, removing "sparkle" or "icepick" depending on the listener or player. We're talking about a frequency hump of at last a couple of dB, so it's clearly audible when you move it around (which is probably why Hendrix liked curly cables with his early CBS era ("let's save a buck by reducing the number of turns on the pickup coils") hyperbright Strats. But in the HT realm, at least if you don't have a turntable, you don't have a source that's subject to all that much variation via cables.

FWIW, AFAIK, the current (no pun intended) thought is that in any electricical system (including distrubution from the power station to your home) while "current" is said to "flow" electrons don't actually move much. They just excite each other down the line . . . which makes, to me, some of the justifications produced by esoteric cable folks untenable. But that's just me.
post #138 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Moreover, for those who are highly attentive (and AFAIK, that means not me) you'll get a slightly different frequency balance through the crossover region between tweeter and mid/bass if you move a few inches because the wavelengths are short and small changes make a difference...

Just to clarify you mean moving yourself physically and not moving the wiring. I know it sounds like a silly observation to technical folks but note that there are many people fooled into thinking the physical length of the wire can cause delays at audio frequencies. I have seen many confuse acoustical delays with electrical delays. Huge difference. One is at the speed of sound and the other 60% the speed of light or faster.

The truth of course is that any wire has an electrical delay. Gets really important at hundreds of mhz, there are even timed traces on your PC motherboard. But in audio systems it's so minuscule it's a joke.

Like all these audiophile beliefs that are founded on factual electronics theories you have to keep it in context to the band of frequencies of interest. What is important in a cell phone tower equipment shack may not be in even the most expensive HiFi system.
post #139 of 170
This is probably one of the most "entertaining" threads of 2012. rolleyes.gif
post #140 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

This is probably one of the most "entertaining" threads of 2012. rolleyes.gif

I hope it doesn't drag on to win 2013 as well...
post #141 of 170
Thread Starter 
I think we might be more sensitive to timing issues than is commonly thought.
If something is going 60% sol another 30%sol---it is out of phase (maybe).

jn said there were some delay issues that I would not be able to understand, but without explaining them what can I do to minimize them?

CD jitter is pretty small, but is now recognized as a factor.

I have a test disk from Keith Johnson that has a couple of tracks that sounds like frequency sweeps--they are suppose to take some excess magnetism
out of the system. Sometimes when things don't sound right those two sweeps fix it.
I am just saying these things to try to trigger some scientific knowledge you might remember.
post #142 of 170
Thread Starter 
JHAz
I think the easiest thing I can identify about the cables that I like is --the sound stage is larger, not the size of the instruments but the stage or room around them.

The other things you said are some of the reason that A/Bx tests for wires won't work for me.
bill
post #143 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

I think we might be more sensitive to timing issues than is commonly thought.
If something is going 60% sol another 30%sol---it is out of phase (maybe).

Huh?
post #144 of 170
Quote:
I have a test disk from Keith Johnson that has a couple of tracks that sounds like frequency sweeps--they are suppose to take some excess magnetism
out of the system. Sometimes when things don't sound right those two sweeps fix it.
I am just saying these things to try to trigger some scientific knowledge you might remember.

...like an acid flashback?
post #145 of 170
Thread Starter 
That's why I said "(maybe)"
I guess the 60/30 would not affect the air very much.
I think you bring out the worst in me.
I do stand behind the timing thing.
I saw in
(hold the tops of your heads everyone) Stereophile or TAS that we can sense timing issues down in the few billionth of a second.

Generally the boutique people are using smaller awg, but you think even something like battery cable on a tweeter would sound the same.
I know this has been asked and answered, so just skip it. But it just doesn't sit well.
post #146 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

I think we might be more sensitive to timing issues than is commonly thought.
If something is going 60% sol another 30%sol---it is out of phase (maybe).
jn said there were some delay issues that I would not be able to understand, but without explaining them what can I do to minimize them?
Actually, the analysis is what will not be understood, the delay probably would.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Huh?
I believe sol means speed of light.


Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

That's why I said "(maybe)"
I guess the 60/30 would not affect the air very much.
I saw in
(hold the tops of your heads everyone) Stereophile or TAS that we can sense timing issues down in the few billionth of a second.
Humans are incapable of sensing timing errors below a millionth of a second, 1 uSec.

The jitter issue (I will try to keep it simple) is a result of how the receiver electronics defines the clock signal for recovering the analog stream. I recall a paper by Hawksford where he showed how the jitter "spectra" would show up in the analog output as a result of the receiver electronics attempting to reconstruct the clock signal. We assume that the digital to analog converter at the end of the digital path makes it's output at exact intervals, but if it's clock is trying to figure out when that time is by guessing at the digital stream, stream noise will affect the output.

jn
post #147 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

I believe sol means speed of light.

Yeah I got that hence my "huh".

Human ears can detect the the difference between 30% and 60% of light speed?
post #148 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glimmie View Post

Human ears can detect the the difference between 30% and 60% of light speed?
Yup. If the source is 10 light seconds away, that's a 3 second difference.

Course, it it's 2 meters, um, that's a tad small.

jn
post #149 of 170
Thread Starter 
Doesn't that fall well within the 1usec range?
Unless I misunderstand ---it's in the thousandth?
post #150 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

JHAz
I think the easiest thing I can identify about the cables that I like is --the sound stage is larger, not the size of the instruments but the stage or room around them.
The other things you said are some of the reason that A/Bx tests for wires won't work for me.
bill

If they make blinded comparison not work, don't they have to equally make sighted comaprisons not work? Or do those realities only apply sometimes?
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