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tweeter speaker wire - Page 3

post #61 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

Quit telling me that I'm ignorant and help me with my tweeter wire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

am pretty ignorant about most.
You want us to tell you that you are not ignorant? Well, that would be lying, wouldn't it? frown.gif
post #62 of 170
No one is saying that you are being ignorant. We are all stating that you do not need to use Coax to connect your Tweeter for your home setup.
post #63 of 170
Thread Starter 
My point is I know I am ignorant about this field of knowledge.
The constant flaming is not productive.
Someone please just answer the coax question without guile.
post #64 of 170
All of you are really wasting your time further explaining to the OP about the science involved in any of this. He already thinks that he can hear a difference between lamp cord and his higher end wire. We all know this isn't true. Placebo is a strong thing and that is what is convincing him. Placebo and nothing else. In reality if he would take a blind A,B,X test between the lamp cord and the so called high end wire he could not pass the test. And we all no that. His test of the different wires where not blind tests and we know that. I guarantee the OP will not pass a blind A,B,X speaker wire test. Sorry OP. You have a lot to learn in the realm of audio science and data to back up what you hear and what you don't hear. You're making a fool of yourself. I'm not saying any of this as an insult. There are several talented scientific/engineering specialists in this thread that have already provided you with scientific data that you're not absorbing. Sometimes absorbing the actual scientific data over the placebo in your head is difficult. I've learned a lot from the knowledgeable people on this forum. In the past I also thought that I knew better about some audio aspects. After reading and looking at the science and data provided I learned I was wrong on several of my thoughts and what I thought I was hearing at first. In reality what I thought I was hearing was never there and I learned why. Knowing why and accepting the data is important. You sound like you may never accept the data and the scientific proof behind audio and the theory that goes with it. It's like the wheel. You can't reinvent the wheel.
post #65 of 170
Thread Starter 
I wish you guys "would stop wasting your time" bragging about how smart you are and how foolish I and other are that have heard the improvement that something other than lamp cord can make.

Someone please just answer the coax question without guile.

How about a single coax line with the core connected to the + and the braid connected to the return?
Would that maintain some of the coax features?
Any problem with the return being a higher gauge than the + ?
post #66 of 170
Quote:
I wish you guys "would stop wasting your time" bragging about how smart you are and how foolish I and other are that have heard the improvement that something other than lamp cord can make.


Hey, if you heard an improvement, then ffs do us all a favour, stop your posting here as what is being said does not impress you as it does not confirm your bias.
Please just go ahead and relieve us from the misery of your whining and buy the most expensive coax you can find on the net.

Anything further is a waste of your time and our time.

You are unimaginable arrogant to really think that after all the arguments anyone here really gives a **** about your problem or your attitude anymore - maybe you find more sympathy at a-gony.
post #67 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

I wish you guys "would stop wasting your time" bragging about how smart you are and how foolish I and other are that have heard the improvement that something other than lamp cord can make.

Someone please just answer the coax question without guile.

How about a single coax line with the core connected to the + and the braid connected to the return?
Would that maintain some of the coax features?
Any problem with the return being a higher gauge than the + ?

That will work fine.
Yes.
No.

Maybe that will end this... There is no point in continuing to explain why small-gauge coax is a poor choice for speaker wire, just answering the questions posed...

Perhaps the OP would be better off with nitrogen-filled RF transmitting cable. Higher gauge and much more costly (not including the nitrogen tank and plumbing) while retaining all coax "features", seems like the perfect fit. For something cheaper, just pick up something like Belden 7976R (http://www.belden.com/techdatas/metric/7976R.pdf)
post #68 of 170
Thread Starter 
Thanks
I am only driving a tweeter so maybe I don't need 7awg?
I saw other belden coax wire that ranged from 32 to 75 ohms----any advantage?
post #69 of 170
Go to the Belden site and choose whatever gauge you want. RG-8 or RG-11 is smaller than 7976R but larger than RG-79 TV cable you are probably looking at. Roger Russell has a site that you can use to find out what size is reasonable; I think a link was posted earlier. Or check out one of the other cable vendors. Gore makes some nice coax cables you may find more to your liking if you are looking for expensive.

Characteristic impedance of the cable won't matter in this application.

I'd just use 18-AWG speaker wire like everyone else. Most common coax is going to have higher resistance than standard speaker wire, and most likely higher inductance and capacitance. I may have missed it; what exactly are the benefits you expect from running coax to your speakers? Unless you have extremely long runs in a high-noise environment where shielding is required I can't imagine using coax for speaker cables. Regular cable will do a much better job.

Note it is not driving just the "tweeter"; it is driving everything except the built-in subwoofer, if I followed your earlier posts.
post #70 of 170
Thread Starter 
This is not for a sub-woofer----The speakers I have are two way, but the bass/mid has a built-in amp.
I thought the coax core would act like regular speaker wire and I would get some benefit from the shielding.
post #71 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Particle accelerator...what the heck is that??wink.gif

Something like what's being built just a stone's throw from where I got my degree: MAX IV
post #72 of 170
Quote:
I thought the coax core would act like regular speaker wire and I would get some benefit from the shielding.

...even after explaining to you why it won't work on page 1?
Quote:
I saw other belden coax wire that ranged from 32 to 75 ohms----any advantage?

Only if properly terminated, which you're not going to do...as mentioned in previous posts.
Quote:
Perhaps the OP would be better off with nitrogen-filled RF transmitting cable. Higher gauge and much more costly (not including the nitrogen tank and plumbing) while retaining all coax "features",

No, he still wont have any advantage because he's not going to use the coax properly.
post #73 of 170
post #74 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post

Something like what's being built just a stone's throw from where I got my degree: MAX IV
Cool.

How far can you throw a stone, and what was your degree in?

It's interesting that they are using combined function magnets to save on hardware cost and physical size, guess that's why their 3 GEV machine is 500 meters circumference, vs the 800 meter one I'm involved with. Using combined function magnets does limit the number of handles which can be used for the beam, and it requires more and stronger quad and sextupole correctors since the combined function locks quad and dipole strengths.

Are you involved in Max?

jn
post #75 of 170
PM would be better for off-topic discussion. cool.gif
post #76 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

PM would be better for off-topic discussion. cool.gif
As opposed to all the testosterone laced browbeating going on?

jn
post #77 of 170
Well yeah... browbeating or not, at least it's on-topic.
post #78 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Well yeah... browbeating or not, at least it's on-topic.
Perhaps your position as the on-topic police would be better served by policing for browbeating.

Browbeating and name calling is never on topic.

jn
post #79 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

This is not for a sub-woofer----The speakers I have are two way, but the bass/mid has a built-in amp.
I thought the coax core would act like regular speaker wire and I would get some benefit from the shielding.

OK.

Coax, comprising the center conductor ("core") and outer shield, will act like normal speaker wire except most coax is worse than most speaker wire because typical small-gauge coax does not have the low resistance of speaker wire and may have higher capacitance and inductance. The net result is you would be better off just using normal speaker wire. If you do have EMI* issues, you have bigger problems than the wire from woofer to tweeter.

Note current always flows in a loop; the "core" and shield provide the two conductors needed for your speakers to work. If you hooked up only the "core" you would not get sound. Well, the amp might buzz loudly, but you would not get the sound you want. If you use two coax lines with the +/- signal on the center conductors and shields tied to ground (perhaps just at the amp) you'd get sound and some shielding but really you'd be better off just using regular speaker wire.

As for shielding, as has been said, shielding speaker wires is rarely of benefit (not sure I have ever seen any benefit in a home). Amplifier output impedances are low and EMI coupling is minimal. Other issues are that the speaker itself undoutedly has unshielded internal wires, obviating the coax shield, and some amplifiers use "balanced" output stages that are not (directly) ground-referenced so the outer shield is not actually providing ground-based shielding. (JN, please ignore the hand-waving, or elaborate if you wish but I am not sure it would help...)

Onwards - Don

* EMI = electromagnetic interference
post #80 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

because typical small-gauge coax does not have the low resistance of speaker wire and may have higher capacitance and inductance......(JN, please ignore the hand-waving, or elaborate if you wish but I am not sure it would help...)
Onwards - Don

Hey Don.

Only thing to say is higher capacitance but lower inductance.

jn
post #81 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post


Most have no idea what the current will be at the far end of a speaker cable of a specific characteristic impedance while it is driving a terribly mismatched low z load. And do not have the capability of accurately measuring it to within the level of human hearing capability with respect to interaural time delays. IOW, to an accuracy below 20 usec.
So, no, most really do not understand.
jn

and away we go... rolleyes.gif

Any publication on your ITD work re:audible cable difference yet, JN?
post #82 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

and away we go... rolleyes.gif
Any publication on your ITD work re:audible cable difference yet, JN?

I will not publish on ITD, I've not stated such, so the question intrigues me..

What I know with regard to ITD is a combination of researching the medical literature (neuro type), synthetic aperture radar (Jim Leseuf is now starting to head that way with waves), personal listening and experimentation, and audio guys like Greisinger.

What I know about cables, EM theory and the such, is an ongoing learning experience.

My work is towards the understanding of what to measure (hence my research on ITD), how to measure it with accuracy (not easy btw), and to show the level of effect, what it is, and what it can impact.

As such, results I obtain would be used by other researchers in the neuro and audio field to establish any connection between cable based changes and what is heard.

jn
post #83 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by jneutron View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

because typical small-gauge coax does not have the low resistance of speaker wire and may have higher capacitance and inductance......(JN, please ignore the hand-waving, or elaborate if you wish but I am not sure it would help...)
Onwards - Don

Hey Don.

Only thing to say is higher capacitance but lower inductance.

jn

Oops, yeah, worded that badly. A coax may have higher C or L than normal speaker wire depending upon the design impedance, etc. Zo (characteristic impedance) = sqrt(L/C) for a lossless line. So you have to choose realizable L and C values for the impedance you wish. Higher-power (larger) transmission cables tend to have lower C and L than low-power cables, but there are (I am sure) exceptions to the rule... I have notes/texts and articles I could dig up tonight that compare parameters of various cables, but probably not worth it.

Thanks - Don

Coax:
RG-58/U (small, 7806R) = 50-ohm, 0.209984 uH/m, 79.7283 pF/m, 24.9356 mohm/m
RG-59/U (small, 1186A) = 75-ohm, 0.318257 uH/m, 53.1522 pF/m, 146.005 mohm/m
7976R (large) = 50-ohm, 0.19686 uH/m, 82.3531 pF/m, 2.69042 mohm/m
- Note the lower capacitance of the higher-Zo cable, and much lower resistance of the larger cable. I have use a hi-Z cable for years as acheap interconnect just for the lower cpacitance.

Conventional:
5000UE (12 AWG) = 0.49215 uH/m, 78.744 pF/m, 5.2496 mohm/m

Little higher inductance, comparable capacitance, lower resistance than smaller coax and much cheaper and easier to find!
post #84 of 170
Thread Starter 
Thank you Ratman for the links.

Thank you Don for addressing my questions and for the answers.
I know it's frustration to keep answering the same question when I don't understand.
I know that difference between lamp cord and boutique wire is subtle at best.
Maybe even a little EMI or RF can interfere with the results.
So, if I can ask one more time and "if you accept this case" (Mission Impossible).

If I use one 18 awg coax line to only drive a normal tweeter and connect the
core conductor to the positive of both the amp and the tweeter and the copper braid to the negative of the amp and tweeter
what might be the possible differences between that and two solid core 18 awg wires?
post #85 of 170
Quote:
Maybe even a little EMI or RF can interfere with the results.

How so?
Quote:
If I use one 18 awg coax line to only drive a normal tweeter and connect the
core conductor to the positive of both the amp and the tweeter and the copper braid to the negative of the amp and tweeter
what might be the possible differences between that and two solid core 18 awg wires?

The coax will probably result in some high frequency rolloff....in other words, zip cord would be better.
post #86 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

Oops, yeah, worded that badly. A coax may have higher C or L than normal speaker wire depending upon the design impedance, etc. Zo (characteristic impedance) = sqrt(L/C) for a lossless line. So you have to choose realizable L and C values for the impedance you wish. Higher-power (larger) transmission cables tend to have lower C and L than low-power cables, but there are (I am sure) exceptions to the rule... I have notes/texts and articles I could dig up tonight that compare parameters of various cables, but probably not worth it.
Thanks - Don
Coax:
RG-58/U (small, 7806R) = 50-ohm, 0.209984 uH/m, 79.7283 pF/m, 24.9356 mohm/m
RG-59/U (small, 1186A) = 75-ohm, 0.318257 uH/m, 53.1522 pF/m, 146.005 mohm/m
7976R (large) = 50-ohm, 0.19686 uH/m, 82.3531 pF/m, 2.69042 mohm/m
- Note the lower capacitance of the higher-Zo cable, and much lower resistance of the larger cable. I have use a hi-Z cable for years as acheap interconnect just for the lower cpacitance.
Conventional:
5000UE (12 AWG) = 0.49215 uH/m, 78.744 pF/m, 5.2496 mohm/m
Little higher inductance, comparable capacitance, lower resistance than smaller coax and much cheaper and easier to find!

If you use the eqution LC = 1034 DC, with L in nH per foot, C in pf per foot, and dc being the dielectric permittivity, you will see that there is an inverse relationship between L and C.

Z = sqr(L/C) is also a good check.

The physical size plays no actual role in the ratio, just the fill material.

Be aware that many very good cable vendors will give the incorrect inductance value. Andrews Heliax cables were spec'd incorrectly.

John
post #87 of 170
I din't know there even WAS such a thing as shielded speaker cable. In the guitar/bass/PA world, from my callow youth right through to today, folks scream "Don't use instrument (shielded) cable for speaker cable! Get a real speaker cable or bad bad things will happen!"

Maybe it's a tube thang . . .

Edit: And, just like that, I now have "Baby DId a Bad, Bad Thing" stuck in my head. Could be worse.
post #88 of 170
Quote:
Originally Posted by billnln View Post

If I use one 18 awg coax line to only drive a normal tweeter and connect the
core conductor to the positive of both the amp and the tweeter and the copper braid to the negative of the amp and tweeter
what might be the possible differences between that and two solid core 18 awg wires?
I gotta ask............
Do you have problems with FM and/or AC interference now? If not, what are you trying to "fix". RG6 coax is NOT going to "improve" your sound. Why????? Because it is NOT intended to be used as "speaker wire". I'm amazed. eek.gif
post #89 of 170
Thread Starter 
I hope this helps someone and not just make everyone upset.

Have you ever seen those pictures that are just thousands of small colored dots, but as you relax and stare at it ---a picture of something comes into view?

If my two channel hi-fi is set up very well----and for example;
It's very quiet,----I am exactly in the sweet spot,
I relax and let go of outside thoughts, etc....... it is possible for the me to be in the music and the soundstage to be high, wide and deep, and the instruments have more texture and air around them. Here I have found wires to make a little difference.
post #90 of 170
Actually all speaker cable in major outdoor stadiums and venues is shielded! It's called running the speaker wire in conduit!

LOL
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