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Setting Nvidia to full range RGB - Page 2

post #31 of 89
My HDTV does not have any settings for “Video” versus “PC.

What threw me off was the Dynamic Range setting in the video card. I figured 16-235 would not put out B-T-B because it only went down to black 16. IOW how could it ever show black 0 if it stops at black 16.

My TV was calibrated using a Blu-ray player which did put out B-T-B. It was not critical that the HTPC did not show B-T-B because the TV would not display this anyway. But I was wondering why the HTPC acted the way it did.

I use WMC7 which originally outputs 16-235 as mentioned above. This looked fine with Intel integrated graphic, but then I installed an HD 6450 video card & its default settings gave me washed out blacks. That’s because the defaults also used 16-235 & I was getting a double conversion & ended up with black 32. I could change the video card settings but then WMP & MPH-HC suffered from black crush. There is a registry hack the changes WMC to use 0-255. I did this & now WMC looks the same as the other players.

Changing the Dynamic Range to 16-236 now allows the HTPC to output B-T-B. But as mentioned it’s kind of a moot point. However I did learn something about my video card.

Over the years I’ve experienced black crush & washed out blacks so am aware of it when it happens. This shows a good example of both.
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles/settingthebrightnesscontrol.html

Question - What happens if there is a jpeg black=0 pixel in a video? IOW perhaps a movie or video is made which has a pure jpeg black=0 picture on a wall. For video that has to be changed to black=16. Does that mean the video B-T-B is actually darker than jpeg=0?
post #32 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

My HDTV does not have any settings for “Video” versus “PC.
What threw me off was the Dynamic Range setting in the video card. I figured 16-235 would not put out B-T-B because it only went down to black 16. IOW how could it ever show black 0 if it stops at black 16.
My TV was calibrated using a Blu-ray player which did put out B-T-B. It was not critical that the HTPC did not show B-T-B because the TV would not display this anyway. But I was wondering why the HTPC acted the way it did.
I use WMC7 which originally outputs 16-235 as mentioned above. This looked fine with Intel integrated graphic, but then I installed an HD 6450 video card & its default settings gave me washed out blacks. That’s because the defaults also used 16-235 & I was getting a double conversion & ended up with black 32. I could change the video card settings but then WMP & MPH-HC suffered from black crush. There is a registry hack the changes WMC to use 0-255. I did this & now WMC looks the same as the other players.
Changing the Dynamic Range to 16-236 now allows the HTPC to output B-T-B. But as mentioned it’s kind of a moot point. However I did learn something about my video card.
Over the years I’ve experienced black crush & washed out blacks so am aware of it when it happens. This shows a good example of both.
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles/settingthebrightnesscontrol.html
Question - What happens if there is a jpeg black=0 pixel in a video? IOW perhaps a movie or video is made which has a pure jpeg black=0 picture on a wall. For video that has to be changed to black=16. Does that mean the video B-T-B is actually darker than jpeg=0?

Interesting that things are getting perpetually re-mapped (i.e. 16 becomes 0, then the new 16 becomes 0 again) as opposed to just maintaining levels within a 8-bit range (i.e. as long as the software says "black" we'll put it at 16).

If you're 16-235 all the way through (including a calibrated display) any values 0-15 will look the same as 16 and any values 235+ will look like 255. It is extremely uncommon (I don't even know of an instance) to have black information below 16; however it isn't uncommon to have highlight detail beyond 235...this is why I recommend a calibrated range of 16-255 per my previous post.
post #33 of 89
Thread Starter 
Presumably the best way to do that would be to set the Nvidia card to 0-255, MPC-HC to 0-255 and MadVR to custom output 16-255 to the screen?
post #34 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

Presumably the best way to do that would be to set the Nvidia card to 0-255, MPC-HC to 0-255 and MadVR to custom output 16-255 to the screen?

This is what I did and it looks good to me.
post #35 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

Presumably the best way to do that would be to set the Nvidia card to 0-255, MPC-HC to 0-255 and MadVR to custom output 16-255 to the screen?

Presumably...says the guy without a HTPC and no concept of how these video cards are handling the settings smile.gif
post #36 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

Presumably the best way to do that would be to set the Nvidia card to 0-255, MPC-HC to 0-255 and MadVR to custom output 16-255 to the screen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchild View Post

Presumably...says the guy without a HTPC and no concept of how these video cards are handling the settings smile.gif

What do you mean?

I set mine like this and am very happy with the results.

Could I tweak things more? Yes.
Do I have time to do that? No.
post #37 of 89
I've been trying to figure all this out for quite some time, but am just more confused. My setup:

GTX 580, PS3, WiiU all going via HDMI into a Denon 1312, then into a Panasonic VT25 plasma.


I mess with this stuff all the time, how can I even tell if my card is outputting full range? I can see a difference when I flip it back and forth on the tv, it just looks like it adds some grey to the screen, and I just end up changing it game by game all the time. Thanks...Also, I have the PS3 set to full IIRC.
post #38 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchild View Post

Interesting that things are getting perpetually re-mapped (i.e. 16 becomes 0, then the new 16 becomes 0 again) as opposed to just maintaining levels within a 8-bit range (i.e. as long as the software says "black" we'll put it at 16).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

I don’t know if this helps clarify things or not.

The video card default setting was 0-255 dynamic range and YCbCr 4:4:4 Pixel Format which is a limited color space setting. This when using WMC7 created washed out blacks.

Changing to RGB full range Pixel Format (and still using 0-255 DR) gave me correct black levels with WMC7, at least when compared to the reference black level established by the Blu-ray player. However when using either WMP or MPH-HC blacks were too dark. IIRC adjusting the TV still did not display B-T-B, but I could be mistaken about that since it’s been a while.

I wanted all the players to have the same color space, & to have them match the reference Blu-ray test patterns. Doing the registry mod for WMC7 to use 0-255 color space made WMC7 the same as WMP & MPC-HC.
post #39 of 89
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchild View Post

Presumably...says the guy without a HTPC and no concept of how these video cards are handling the settings smile.gif
Not sure what you mean by that (so three people you have managed to confuse so far) other than you are misinformed which brings your other observations into disrepute?
post #40 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtrizzy View Post

I've been trying to figure all this out for quite some time, but am just more confused. My setup:

GTX 580, PS3, WiiU all going via HDMI into a Denon 1312, then into a Panasonic VT25 plasma.


I mess with this stuff all the time, how can I even tell if my card is outputting full range? I can see a difference when I flip it back and forth on the tv, it just looks like it adds some grey to the screen, and I just end up changing it game by game all the time. Thanks...Also, I have the PS3 set to full IIRC.

I too have always found discussions about video levels very confusing, so I decided to investigate it for myself. This is a longish post, but it documents my testing fairly rigorously, and it describes how one can quantify the video card's output vs its input, that is, the actual pixel values. So while I wrote it for myself, I'm going to go ahead and post it as it directly addresses your questions about telling "what you're really getting" and offers guidance on getting consistent results between different devices and desktop (games) and video. (If it's tl;dr for someone, I understand - no need to comment on that.)

Longtime WMC and XBMC user here, I've been playing around with my new TV, a Sony KDL-46HX850, and this is what I found for my GT430 running driver 306.97 in Windows 7 x64 for the four possible combinations of GT430 and TV RGB ranges. Some definitions and procedures first.

Below, "PC Limited" is "Limited (16-235)" in the Nvidia control panel Video settings, "PC Full" is "Full (0-255)", and the "TV Limited" and "TV Full" are the corresponding TV settings. The TV and Nvidia Control Panel are at defaults for other parameters like brightness and contrast.

I use AVS709HD and Spears and Munsil as test material to compare my PC and standalone BD player, a Sony BDP-BX1 (aka BDP-S350). I've copied the S&M .m2ts files onto my hard drive so I can view them in XBMC on the PC. I don't use any codec packs for WMC; never have, never will. I use AVS709HD to compare WMC and XBMC, and both AVS709HD and S&M in XBMC to compare PC to BD player, the latter of course playing spinning discs, not streaming. XBMC is configured to use DXVA2 hardware acceleration, and its output agrees with the WMC output. The PC is connected directly to the TV with HDMI, while the BD player goes through my Pioneer AVR, which just passes the video on without processing it.

When I talk about "the bars", I'm referring to AVS709 pattern "A2 - Grayscale Steps". When I talk about "the bar values", I mean what they contain, and I determine this by taking screenshots while playing the video in a given PC mode, and then examining the pixel values in Paint.net using its Color Picker tool. When I talk about "the bar labels", I'm talking about the numeric labels for the bars in the video. This pattern actually labels only bars 16 and 235, but AVS709HD documents the steps between the bars, and it's easy to compute what they would be if they were all labeled. The bar values and labels agree in PC Limited but not in PC Full, as I will show. Everything I say about this pattern applies equally to the AVS709HD Black Clipping and White Clipping patterns, for which the bars are all actually labeled. I settled on "Grayscale Steps" because it has both black and white in the same pattern, and it encompasses the full RGB range 0-255; it gives me just one pattern to talk about, which is simpler.

The only combination that works completely right for video is (1), PC Limited, TV Limited. All results are consistent between WMC and XBMC. Result (1) in XBMC visibly agrees with my BD player, which is on another TV input, for which everything is the default for both player and TV; more than that, all patterns in the test suites visibly agree for PC Limited, TV Limited. I can quickly A/B between the PC and BD player thanks to having discrete codes programmed into my remote control to select inputs with one button press, so it takes at most a second or two to switch, and I can easily tell when the devices don't agree in results 2-4. Getting the PC and BD player to agree is especially important if you are running them through an AVR which has a single output for everything.

At last, the results.

1. PC Limited, TV Limited
BTB, WTW present. All the bars contain the values they are labeled with, from 0-255.
TV treats 16 as black.
BTB not visible at defaults, but visible by increasing the brightness. OK per AVS and S&M.
WTW visible. OK per AVS and S&M.
BD player and PC agree.

2. PC Limited, TV Full
BTB, WTW present. All the bars contain the values they are labeled with, from 0-255.
TV treats 0 as black.
BTB visible at default brightness, picture washed out. Not OK.
WTW visible. OK per AVS and S&M.
The blacks can be "fixed" by drastically lowering brightness either on the GT430 or TV, which makes the whole picture dimmer than the BD player. I guess one can mitigate this somewhat by jacking up the backlight, but that's going to make things like flashlighting worse.

3. PC Full, TV Limited
No BTB or WTW. PC sets everything below 16 to 0 and above 235 to 255, bar labeled 16 contains 0, and bar labeled 235 contains 255, with equal steps in between. The bars labeled 16-235 contain 0-255, and I guess this is what is meant by "16-235 being expanded into 0-255."
TV treats 16 as black.
Hopeless. Blacks are crushed due to the use of TV Limited.

4. PC Full, TV Full
No BTB or WTW. PC sets everything below 16 to 0 and above 235 to 255, bar labeled 16 contains 0, and bar labeled 235 contains 255, with equal steps in between. The bars labeled 16-235 contain 0-255, and I guess this is what is meant by "16-235 being expanded into 0-255."
TV treats 0 as black.
Tolerable, but see below.

Comparing TV Limited to TV Full, note the RGB level the TV treats as black at its default brightness; it is 16 for TV Limited and 0 for TV Full. Note also that WTW is visible in TV Limited, which is fine per AVS709HD and S&M.

Comparing PC Limited to PC Full, note the differences in BTB/WTW and more generally, bar labels vs the actual values they contain.

I took screenshots of the AVS709HD "A2 - Grayscale Steps" in XBMC, and by comparing PC Full to Limited, I could verify the expansion of 16-235 into 0-255 that occurs with PC Full. That is, when the video is played in PC Full mode, the bars labeled 16 and 235 actually contain 0 and 255, with everything below 16 at 0 and everything above 235 at 255. In PC Limited mode, the bars labeled 16 and 235 contain those values; in fact, all the bars contain the values they're labeled with, from 0-255. In PC Full mode, the bar range 16-235 contains pixel values 0-255, while the same bar range 16-235 contains 16-235 in PC Limited mode.

Per the test discs and WMC yuppies, (1) is the only one that works completely right. (4) comes close, but at the expense of WTW. You can really see it in tests like the Media Center guy's white shirt which has a ton of WTW content and is really a test for that, which really it shouldn't be, as it's nominally a test for contrast, and WTW shouldn't appear in normal video anywhere near as much as it's used in that test. But WTW is simply gone in PC Full mode, all mapped to 255, which is not a great thing.

The only reason I see to use PC Full (remember this affects only video; desktop is normally output at 0-255) is to enable the use of TV Full (affects all content, desktop and video), the goal being to avoid crushing blacks at the desktop. Using (4) (PC Full, TV Full) would avoid this at the cost of degrading video quality slightly due to the loss of WTW and arguably calibrating to peak white instead of reference white.

Confusingly, it is PC Limited (Nvidia video "Limited (16-235)") that sends untouched RGB 0-255 to the display, while PC Full (Nvidia video "Full (0-255)") expands 16-235 to 0-255, with 16 and below all mapped to 0, and 235 and above all mapped to 255. It's confusing because "Full" sounds better than "Limited", but it is "Limited" that doesn't touch the video, while "Full" does. I think the proper way to look at this is to consider the target device. The term "Limited" means that 16-235 comprises the range from black to white, while "Full" means that 0-255 comprises the range from black to white. Since video is comprised of pixels in the range 16-235, it makes sense that PC Limited would just send the pixels out untouched; they already have the right values for a display that is also in Limited mode, which will treat 16 as black, 235 as white, but hopefully still allow for WTW. However, PC Full has to do what it does to the pixels so that they will display correctly on a TV Full device, which treats 0 as black and 255 as white.

It gets even more confusing when you look at bar patterns like AVS709HD's "A2 - Grayscale Steps" with, say, 25 bars labeled 0-255 in equal steps of about 10-11 and nominally containing pixels with those values, because the labels stay the same in both modes. The labels document the pixel values stored on the video, the "input pixels". The card produces "output pixels", which is what is observed on the TV. The labels (input) do agree with the values (output) in PC Limited. However, in PC Full, the bar labeled 16 actually contains 0, and the one labeled 235 contains 255, and in a sense, 0-255 is squished into the range 16-235, going by the bar labels. The thing is, the bar labels sort of lie, and that's not what is happening; 255 is not becoming 235. Instead, 255 is staying 255, 235-255 are becoming 255, and 234 and below are being mapped to 255 and below. The same thing is happening for blacks, and thus input pixels in the range 16-235 really are being expanded to output pixels in the range 0-255. I understood this only after taking the screenshots while playing the video in the two PC modes and examining the pixels in Paint.net using the Color Picker tool.
post #41 of 89
Thread Starter 
Thanks for that , very comprehensive and understandable. However if you set a custom resolution in the Nvidia control panel, say to get 23.976hz, it defaults to Full 0-255 so presumably (I use that word fully expecting 'Manchild' too tell me I don't even own a TV!) there is no way to get it to output Limited 16-235? Hence the only solution must be to set 16-235 in MadvR as Sammy2 and myself have done, or is there another way?
Edited by Heuer - 12/19/12 at 6:32am
post #42 of 89
Valid video ranges are 16-235. Below black is used solely for setting the brightness control, and is unnecessary with digital displays - it was only useful with CRT.
Above white information is useful when mastering video, because it lets you check that your content is within the valid 16-235 range.
I challenge you to find any properly encoded video (commercial content) that contains information above white, that is not a test disc. I've yet to find any real-world examples.


Everything on a PC is rendered in the 0-255 space, so you will ideally output PC levels (0-255) from the video card.
If you output video levels from a PC, it is still rendered at 0-255, and is then compressed to Video levels (16-235) which can potentially introduce banding.

If your display can accept PC levels, then that is what you should send it for optimal image quality.
If your display cannot, then you send it video levels.


If your display cannot display PC levels correctly, and you only care about video playback quality, and not the desktop at all, you should output PC levels from the video card, and have the player output Video levels. (16-235)
This will avoid compressing levels from 0-255 to 16-235, and instead clip everything below 16 and above 235 on the desktop. But it will display videos at the correct levels without any potential banding from the conversion.


If your really want to keep above white information, there are two ways it can be done:
  1. Output PC levels from the display, Video Levels from your Player, and have your display set to accept PC levels. Then lower the brightness to clip everything below 16. This will display 16-255, but is only suitable for video playback.
  2. Use MadVR with a custom 3DLUT that sets the output levels to 16-255 rather than 16-235. This will let you keep the desktop at 0-255, and displays 16-255 with video playback. The white level will be noticeably dimmer than on the desktop, as video white is 235 rather than 255 though.

I recommend that you avoid either of those options, and stick with PC level output (assuming your display supports it) clipping both BTB and WTW information though.
post #43 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

Thanks for that , very comprehensive and understandable. However if you set a custom resolution in the Nvidia control panel, say to get 23.976hz, it defaults to Full 0-255 so presumably (I use that word fully expecting 'Manchild' too tell me I don't even own a TV!) there is no way to get it to output Limited 16-235? Hence the only solution must be to set 16-235 in MadvR as Sammy2 and myself have done, or is there another way?

Sorry, I have no idea how the Nvidia settings interact with the MadVR settings. However, if the Nvidia 0-255 knocks out BTB and WTW like it does in the setup I described, there's nothing that can be done to get them back. What I described was a very vanilla setup, where the only variables were the "Dynamic Range" in the Nvidia video color settings and the "HDMI Dynamic Range" for my TV. Everything else was set to defaults, both in the Nvidia control panel and TV settings, except that XBMC was configured to use DXVA2 so it would be consistent with WMC. Software rendering that doesn't use hardware acceleration is going to do whatever it does, and it may not be consistent with what I described, which was all with hardware acceleration.
post #44 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

Not sure what you mean by that (so three people you have managed to confuse so far) other than you are misinformed which brings your other observations into disrepute?

My comments have been purely on recommended approach and explanation of dynamic range; when it comes to facilitating setting up a specific HTPC my knowledge is limited.
post #45 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

Sorry, I have no idea how the Nvidia settings interact with the MadVR settings. However, if the Nvidia 0-255 knocks out BTB and WTW like it does in the setup I described, there's nothing that can be done to get them back. What I described was a very vanilla setup, where the only variables were the "Dynamic Range" in the Nvidia video color settings and the "HDMI Dynamic Range" for my TV. Everything else was set to defaults, both in the Nvidia control panel and TV settings, except that XBMC was configured to use DXVA2 so it would be consistent with WMC. Software rendering that doesn't use hardware acceleration is going to do whatever it does, and it may not be consistent with what I described, which was all with hardware acceleration.
The Nvidia settings (Nvidia control panel > Video > Adjust Video Colour settings) should have no effect on MadVR, with the possible exception being if you are using DXVA Native decoding & scaling, which is not recommended. DXVA scaling is worse than Bilinear scaling in MadVR, and DXVA Copy-Back decoding should perform better than DXVA Native.
post #46 of 89
Thread Starter 
Thank you for that bit of information! I assumed I should set the Nvidia to use the media player settings. I just set it as you suggested and things have improved. Even though I have a custom resolution (which defaults to 0-255) setting the Nvidia level to 16-235 seems to over-ride it. I have left madVR at 16-255 as 0-255 crushes everything.
post #47 of 89
If I understand correctly PC 0-255 get compressed to Video 16-235. Therefore Video black 16 equals PC black 0.

How does a calibration test pattern get a below black image? If Video black 16 is already equal to PC black 0 that means Video black 0 has to be blacker than PC black 0. How do they do it, or what am I missing here?
post #48 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

If I understand correctly PC 0-255 get compressed to Video 16-235. Therefore Video black 16 equals PC black 0.

Please go back and spend some time on the long message I posted. I wrote it very meticulously and specifically addressed why that is not what is happening and why it might seem that way, while what is really happening is that 16-235 is getting expanded to 0-255. The last couple of paragraphs were all about that.
Quote:
How does a calibration test pattern get a below black image? If Video black 16 is already equal to PC black 0 that means Video black 0 has to be blacker than PC black 0. How do they do it, or what am I missing here?

Video can contain any pixels it wants using the full range 0-255. Video cards can perform various transformations, and the output pixels don't necessarily equal the input pixels. You can take screenshots and examine the output pixels, and if you have known input pixels, like with some of the test patterns, you can surmise what the transformation was. TVs can do their own processing, but you will have to rely on what you know about the pixels, using your eyes and the behavior of the TV as you vary brightness and contrast if you don't have a meter to measure the light output.

I suggest reading my long message and if necessary carrying out the little experiments I thoroughly described using the test discs, screenshots, and Paint.net or other program that lets you examine pixel values. It's all free so it won't cost you anything but time. (Well, Spears and Munsil isn't free, but I didn't refer to it in the tests I documented.) I think that's the only way you're going to get this, and I can't explain it any better than I already have. The last sentence I wrote was, "I understood this only after taking the screenshots while playing the video in the two PC modes and examining the pixels in Paint.net using the Color Picker tool," and that was after casually reading discussions on this for a long time and not really understanding them.
post #49 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

The video card default setting was 0-255 dynamic range and YCbCr 4:4:4 Pixel Format which is a limited color space setting.

The notion that this is a limited color space setting is not accurate. Part of the reason this will look wrong is because Blu-ray (and DVD, TV, etc.) is 4:2:0, not 4:4:4. I'd bet that the reason the translation to RGB looks "right" is because as part of that YCbCr->RGB conversion it's also handling the chroma subsampling.
post #50 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

(I use that word fully expecting 'Manchild' too tell me I don't even own a TV!)

What does this even mean?
post #51 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

The labels (input) do agree with the values (output) in PC Limited. However, in PC Full, the bar labeled 16 actually contains 0, and the one labeled 235 contains 255, and in a sense, 0-255 is squished into the range 16-235, going by the bar labels. The thing is, the bar labels sort of lie, and that's not what is happening; 255 is not becoming 235. Instead, 255 is staying 255, 235-255 are becoming 255, and 234 and below are being mapped to 255 and below. The same thing is happening for blacks, and thus input pixels in the range 16-235 really are being expanded to output pixels in the range 0-255. I understood this only after taking the screenshots while playing the video in the two PC modes and examining the pixels in Paint.net using the Color Picker tool.

Super helpful and informative; thanks for doing the empirical work to validate how to set things up. I know when I build my HTPC I'll setup with limited on both.
post #52 of 89
Thread Starter 
It was a friendly riposte to your comment "Presumably...says the guy without a HTPC and no concept of how these video cards are handling the settings" . I do have a HTPC and I did think I knew how these video cards handled the settings although the contents of this thread are making me think otherwise!

Great information here though and I am glad I am not alone!
post #53 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heuer View Post

It was a friendly riposte to your comment "Presumably...says the guy without a HTPC and no concept of how these video cards are handling the settings" . I do have a HTPC and I did think I knew how these video cards handled the settings although the contents of this thread are making me think otherwise!
Great information here though and I am glad I am not alone!

Hahahahaha! Sorry my friend...I was speaking about myself, not you! Sincerest apologies for having it come off the way it did (not the intention).

I'm looking to build a HTPC and learn about how to set it up; I know a great a deal about media, but not about HTPC and all these settings (MadVR, video cards, etc.). Apologies again for not being clear...I'd never be that rude.
post #54 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchild View Post

The notion that this is a limited color space setting is not accurate. Part of the reason this will look wrong is because Blu-ray (and DVD, TV, etc.) is 4:2:0, not 4:4:4.

But this combination of settings does not look wrong. There just is no B-T-B.

I don't know where conversion is taking place, but the video card has 4 Pixel Format settings:
1. YcbCr 4:4:4 Pixel Format
2. YCbCr 4:2:2 Pixel Format
3. RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format Studio (Limited RGB)
4. RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format PC Standard (Full RGB)

As far as black level is concerned the first 3 act identical. The fourth one is always darker. This happens no matter which HTPC player is used, including the ODD.

Except for no B-T-B, the first 3 with 0-255 dynamic range look the same as #4 with 16-235 dynamic range. So it's kind of a toss up which one I use. There may be other color conversion issues between these two but so far it is not perceivable. And either of these match the Blu-ray player's black levels.
post #55 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

But this combination of settings does not look wrong. There just is no B-T-B.
I don't know where conversion is taking place, but the video card has 4 Pixel Format settings:
1. YcbCr 4:4:4 Pixel Format
2. YCbCr 4:2:2 Pixel Format
3. RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format Studio (Limited RGB)
4. RGB 4:4:4 Pixel Format PC Standard (Full RGB)
As far as black level is concerned the first 3 act identical. The fourth one is always darker. This happens no matter which HTPC player is used, including the ODD.
Except for no B-T-B, the first 3 with 0-255 dynamic range look the same as #4 with 16-235 dynamic range. So it's kind of a toss up which one I use. There may be other color conversion issues between these two but so far it is not perceivable. And either of these match the Blu-ray player's black levels.
YCC output from a PC is converted from RGB, usually without much precision, just like 16-235 output from a PC is converted from the native 0-255.

For the best image quality, you should be outputting full range 0-255 RGB from a PC, if your display supports it.
post #56 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

Please go back and spend some time on the long message I posted. I wrote it very meticulously and specifically addressed why that is not what is happening and why it might seem that way, while what is really happening is that 16-235 is getting expanded to 0-255. The last couple of paragraphs were all about that.

I guess that's what confusing me. If 16-235 expands to 0-255 that means that video 16 is the same as PC 0. Is that correct?

If video B-T-B is video 0-15, what does that get expanded to? If it gets cutoff & becomes the same as PC 0, then how can you see the B-T-B test bars?
post #57 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

Please go back and spend some time on the long message I posted. I wrote it very meticulously and specifically addressed why that is not what is happening and why it might seem that way, while what is really happening is that 16-235 is getting expanded to 0-255. The last couple of paragraphs were all about that.

I guess that's what confusing me. If 16-235 expands to 0-255 that means that video 16 is the same as PC 0. Is that correct?

Yep.
Quote:
If video B-T-B is video 0-15, what does that get expanded to? If it gets cutoff & becomes the same as PC 0, then how can you see the B-T-B test bars?

You can't, because they're all 0. It's all in my long post:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1444859/setting-nvidia-to-full-range-rgb/30#post_22721699

One thing I'd like to add, and that is, BTB is important to preserve because it helps you calibrate brightness. Spears and Munsil make a point of that here:

http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles/settingthebrightnesscontrol.html

So really my Settings Combination (1), (PC Limited, TV Limited) is the way to go if at all possible, for this reason, plus the preservation of WTW, which can legitimately appear in video for things like highlights.
post #58 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

One thing I'd like to add, and that is, BTB is important to preserve because it helps you calibrate brightness. Spears and Munsil make a point of that here:
Flat panels are not CRTs. You can set brightness on them by eye with a full black screen just as well as with a pattern containing BTB information, because anything below the correct brightness setting remains at a fixed level, and as soon as you go one notch too high on the brightness control, there's a big jump in brightness.

It's irrelevant on modern displays.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

plus the preservation of WTW, which can legitimately appear in video for things like highlights.
Not in properly mastered video. Valid ranges are 16-235. Above 235 is useful to see in the mastering process, but should not be in mastered content released to the public.


If you are set to anything other than full-range RGB output from a PC, and PC-levels on the display, you are compromising image quality. No exceptions.
If your display does not support PC levels, it is still possible to have video output at the correct levels without any conversions taking place, but you have to compromise on desktop image quality to do so. (clipping below 16 and above 235)

If your display does not support PC levels, and you need to use the desktop, then you have to compromise and have the video card output video levels to the display.
post #59 of 89
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

One thing I'd like to add, and that is, BTB is important to preserve because it helps you calibrate brightness. Spears and Munsil make a point of that here:
Flat panels are not CRTs. You can set brightness on them by eye with a full black screen just as well as with a pattern containing BTB information, because anything below the correct brightness setting remains at a fixed level, and as soon as you go one notch too high on the brightness control, there's a big jump in brightness.

It's irrelevant on modern displays.

Seeing something that is flashing vs not flashing is easier and doesn't require any adjustment of the brightness control to verify. So it's relevant.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tima94930 View Post

plus the preservation of WTW, which can legitimately appear in video for things like highlights.
Not in properly mastered video. Valid ranges are 16-235. Above 235 is useful to see in the mastering process, but should not be in mastered content released to the public.

I'm going to rely on the documentation that comes with my Bluray calibration discs like Spears and Munsil, that accompanies AVS709HD, and so forth. In my very brief testing of real material, I did find at least one occurrence of WTW in an actual movie; I stopped once I found it and didn't write it down, because I figured my references know what they're talking about, and therefore it wasn't a particularly notable finding. How much of it to preserve is also something the references I've cited discuss, and I touched on this by mentioning calibrating for peak vs. reference white.
Quote:
If you are set to anything other than full-range RGB output from a PC, and PC-levels on the display, you are compromising image quality. No exceptions.
If your display does not support PC levels, it is still possible to have video output at the correct levels without any conversions taking place, but you have to compromise on desktop image quality to do so. (clipping below 16 and above 235)

If your display does not support PC levels, and you need to use the desktop, then you have to compromise and have the video card output video levels to the display.

If I understand your terms, I think we agree. In my long post a few messages back, I defined everything, described procedures, and exhaustively documented the behavior of the 4 possible combinations of dynamic range for my Nvidia card and TV. To summarize, the way I get the unadulterated video to the display with an Nvidia card using WMC with no codec packs and XBMC in DXVA2 mode so they're both using hardware acceleration is to use the Nvidia video dynamic range control panel setting, "Limited (16-235)". To view it properly, my Sony KDL-46HX850 needs to be in its corresponding "Limited" mode. Having both in Limited mode gives me results consistent with my Bluray player at its defaults. That's what I thoroughly documented in my long post, and I also discussed the compromise video dynamic range settings I need to select on the PC and the TV in order for video to be decently watchable (16-235 expanded to 0-255) while the desktop gets to use 0-255 as designed, and that is to put them both in their "Full" modes. Note that for the Nvidia card, "Limited" and "Full" apply only to the video dynamic range. The desktop is 0-255, which I guess is what you mean by "PC Levels". The TV doesn't distinguish desktop from video, so its Limited and Full modes affect everything it displays, and as I noted, the difference in my TV's modes is the level it treats as reference black at default brightness.
Edited by tima94930 - 12/21/12 at 6:32am
post #60 of 89
I'm not trying to be argumentative but I'm still not grasping something. And yes I've read the long posting several times. Please bear with me & follow this example.

Let’s say I play a calibration disc in my Blu-ray player & adjust my HDTV for proper black levels.

The video coming out of the Blu-ray player is 16-235 color. And it’s already been established that Video 16 equals PC 0.

That means the blackest area on the TV is Video 16 or PC 0.

Now I increase the brightness on the TV. Now the Video 16 / PC 0 is displayed as dark gray. It’s not really dark gray coming out of the Blu-ray player, it’s the same PC=0 black that it was a minute ago. But now I also see a bar that is darker than the PC= 0. What is the level of this newly appearing darker bar that the Blu-ray player is outputting?
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