or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Problems with Behringer amp and Denon AVR
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Problems with Behringer amp and Denon AVR - Page 2

post #31 of 115
Yeah. I get a super hot LFE signal from my Onkyo TX-NR3007.
post #32 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yeah. I get a super hot LFE signal from my Onkyo TX-NR3007.

Agree'd. I wonder where all this hearsay is coming from. My 3009 has no issue with LFE signal either.
post #33 of 115
My 807 was way up over 6 volts with less than 1% thd. 886 is somewhere north of 12 volts.
post #34 of 115
My Denon clips my crown pro amp. clearly enough signal.
post #35 of 115
Thread Starter 
Well I am out of town for a day or two, but am looking forward to doing some more tinkering when I get home, starting with the switches on the back of the amp as I had no idea they were even there until today when I started reading through the manual. (note to self, always read manuals first!) I will set the switches properly when I get home. I will also try unplugging the coax cable and then move the amp to a different power receptacle in order to try the process of elimination on trying to fix the hum.

Any ideas on how I should set the gain relative to the subwoofer output level on the receiver? I couldn't remember if that was posted already, if so, sorry. If not, can someone please explain this? Last question is, how do I measure the voltage output from the avr's subwoofer pre-out?

You guys are freaking awesome for helping me out with this!
post #36 of 115
Thread Starter 
Ok, so I just read the link provided in a previous post about matching the gain structure of the AVR and power amp. Let me see if I got this straight....


First, disconnect the actual speaker and set the speaker & sub levels in the AVR to their max settings. Then start with the power amps gain at the lowest setting and make sure the AVR is set to "direct" mode. Start with a pink noise signal and turn the AVR's volume control setting to the same setting that you previously determined to be the highest clean, undistorted level, then increase the amps gain setting until the clip light begins to blink, keep on increasing the gain until the clip light stops blinking and instead stays fully lit. After this part, I am completly lost as the post in that thread does not explain what to do after this?

Also, I am having trouble comprehending how to figure out what the highest clean, undistorted volume level my AVR is capable of?

So can anyone explain these two issues?
post #37 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by apnea View Post

My Denon clips my crown pro amp. clearly enough signal.

And where is master volume knob on reference scale and the sub trim level (AVR) when denon manages to clip the signal???
Edited by braveheart123 - 12/13/12 at 7:35pm
post #38 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

You might enjoy that read too.wink.gif

Already did only a year ago. That article, though written very comprehensively, mainly deals with full-range signal. We are discussing max 100Hz and below bass frequencies where wavelenghts are long enough to exhibit any inherent and, most importantly, significant noise properties in the input/output signal.
Edited by braveheart123 - 12/14/12 at 12:49am
post #39 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Ok, this is 100% misinformation now. You said in your thread that you used the internal test tone to see the output voltage. Wrong approach, and there is no wonder you are getting low readings. There is certainly a difference between pro audio and consumer gear, but just about every single modern AVR has enough voltage to drive them to max. Go back and test each of those with a 60hz 0dBfs signal at the volume on the avr at 0 and sub trim at 0 and I think you will VERY surprised at your findings.

May be u just rushed through my post. I never said I used internal test tones of avr to set the gain level of pro amp. I used internal test tone only AFTER setting the correct gain on pro amp with a wide-band 60-90Hz pink noise. And by the way, this pink noise was recorded at 0dBFS and while playing it, I put AVR in 2-channel stereo and disabled Audyssey and DynamicEQ along with BFD in bypass mode.

Re-read....
post #40 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Let me guess then, once you did the ported box, you dropped the gain on either your AVR, Samson, or your amp? Am I correct with this assumption?

The gain on AVR not dropped.
Sensitivity level knob on ART CleanBox Pro at max position.
And guess what....the level attenuator on Crown went further north east. It was on 12 o clock position before and now at 3. I tested it at my reference volume on avr (75dB spl on rat shack)......no clipping. Alpine is taking more beating than ever for a very clean hit. The output is a tad crude but that's coz it is a test box and I built it from chipboard. I will do the final build with MDF.
Edited by braveheart123 - 12/13/12 at 9:33pm
post #41 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok, so I just read the link provided in a previous post about matching the gain structure of the Then start with the power amps gain at the lowest setting and make sure the AVR is set to "direct" mode. ?

In Direct Mode, your sub will not ouput any signal if subwoofer mode setting in avr is set to "LFE". It must be "LFE+Main".


Also, do not use internal test tone of the AVR. It is recorded at -30dBFS. Download a 60Hz sine wave recorded at 0dBFS or alternatively you can create your own with NCH tone generator. It is free. I use a 0dBFS 60-90hz pink noise for this coz it gives me an average of the spectrum.

Once you have a 0dBFS 60Hz test tone, use that keeping the sub trim level at 00 on avr and master volume at your max reference. For gain matching, I use 2-channel stereo mode disabling Audyssey, Dynamic EQ, and BFD in bypass mode. Then raise the output knob on ep4000 from its lowest position tick by tick till the clipping lights show constantly lit or start blinking (to be safe). Make sure all speakers including sub are disconnected. If using Direct Mode or 2-Channel Stereo mode, disconnecting front left/right and sub is enough.

Hope that helps.
Edited by braveheart123 - 12/13/12 at 10:03pm
post #42 of 115
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

In Direct Mode, your sub will not ouput any signal if subwoofer mode setting in avr is set to "LFE". It must be "LFE+Main".
Also, do not use internal test tone of the AVR. It is recorded at -30dBFS. Download a 60Hz sine wave recorded at 0dBFS or alternatively you can create your own with NCH tone generator. It is free. I use a 0dBFS 60-90hz pink noise for this coz it gives me an average of the spectrum.
Once you have a 0dBFS 60Hz test tone, use that keeping the sub trim level at 00 on avr and master volume at your max reference. For gain matching, I use 2-channel stereo mode disabling Audyssey, Dynamic EQ, and BFD in bypass mode. Then raise the output knob on ep4000 from its lowest position tick by tick till the clipping lights show constantly lit or start blinking (to be safe). Make sure all speakers including sub are disconnected. If using Direct Mode or 2-Channel Stereo mode, disconnecting front left/right and sub is enough.
Hope that helps.


Ok, I think I am finally starting to understand this a bit, BUT, how do I figure out what is my AVR-3312's max reference volume? I am totally lost as far as determining the AVR-3312's max volume level before clipping? Also, after I complete the part about turning the gain on the amp up slowly until the clip lights start to blink and then stop when they are fully lit, what do I do after that point? Is that the level I should leave the gain set to? What should I do about the AVR-3312's subwoofer level? Should it be left at 00db on my AVR-3312?
post #43 of 115
Thread Starter 
Also, what is the proper way to measure the output voltage on my AVR-3312's subwoofer pre-out?
post #44 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Also, what is the proper way to measure the output voltage on my AVR-3312's subwoofer pre-out?

Re-read Post #7
post #45 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok, I think I am finally starting to understand this a bit, BUT, how do I figure out what is my AVR-3312's max reference volume? I am totally lost as far as determining the AVR-3312's max volume level before clipping? Also, after I complete the part about turning the gain on the amp up slowly until the clip lights start to blink and then stop when they are fully lit, what do I do after that point? Is that the level I should leave the gain set to? What should I do about the AVR-3312's subwoofer level? Should it be left at 00db on my AVR-3312?

Reference is when your system's speakers are all calibrated to 75dB's and the volume of the AVR is at -0. There is NO other reference. If you listen that loud, then that is where you want to start your AVR off with the sub trim level at 0. If you only listen at -15 or even higher, start there. after you get to solid clip lights, you will want to back the amp down until they aren;t fully lit anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

The gain on AVR not dropped.
Sensitivity level knob on ART CleanBox Pro at max position.
And guess what....the level attenuator on Crown went further north east. It was on 12 o clock position before and now at 3. I tested it at my reference volume on avr (75dB spl on rat shack)......no clipping. Alpine is taking more beating than ever for a very clean hit. The output is a tad crude but that's coz it is a test box and I built it from chipboard. I will do the final build with MDF.

At a 75dB, no one should clip, that is just plain silly.
post #46 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

At a 75dB, no one should clip, that is just plain silly.

At home reference volume, the speakers are playing at 75dB, and sub 10dB hotter at 85dB coz of 10dB hotter LFE recorded in the mix. During 20dB transient bursts (action scenes), speakers play at 95dB and sub at 105dB. That is astronomically loud in home environment. So, 105dB sub output with NO CLIPPING is the target I shoot for. And I successfully achieve that and like me many many more HT enthusiasts also do, um sure.
post #47 of 115
Quote:
There is NO other reference.

No pun intended, but you are way off on reference volume stuff. Read more
post #48 of 115
I thought reference was 105 db speakers and 115 db subs?
post #49 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

At home reference volume, the speakers are playing at 75dB, and sub 10dB hotter at 85dB coz of 10dB hotter LFE recorded in the mix. During 20dB transient bursts (action scenes), speakers play at 95dB and sub at 105dB. That is astronomically loud in home environment. So, 105dB sub output with NO CLIPPING is the target I shoot for. And I successfully achieve that and like me many many more HT enthusiasts also do, um sure.

You did good for the bold part at least! I guess we can say you are making progress. After that you fall apart with misinformation, once again. Reference is actually 85dB with 20dB headroom for peaks. Systems need to be capable of 105dB peaks for the speakers and 115dB for the subs. Considering you are not using full range speakers for each channel of your system and then you will also have channel summing for the LFE when you redirect bass to it, so a sub system capable of 120dB peaks is not a bad suggestion.

Please read this: http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/

You are correct that you run your noise and calibrate to 75dB, but this is -30Dbfs signal! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop posting misinformation. Get your facts straight before you confuse some poor chap that is trying to set his system by the actual proper guidelines.

FWIW, most bump boxes should be set at half if they have a gain knob. This is called the "detent" position and keeps the converter to changing the signal exactly to spec.
post #50 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by wth718 View Post

I thought reference was 105 db speakers and 115 db subs?

It is for the peaks, 85dB for dialogue, I just posted a good link to explain.
post #51 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

No pun intended, but you are way off on reference volume stuff. Read more

Haha I guess THX spec website is off then? Now you are really diggin deep pal.
Quote:
I tested it at my reference volume on avr (75dB spl on rat shack)......no clipping.

This is what you said. I am very proud of you that your sub is not clipping at 75dB. If it did, then perhaps you should run down to Best Buy and scoop the cheapest one they have there as it will outperform whatever you have tossed in your chipwood "testbox"
post #52 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Reference is when your system's speakers are all calibrated to 75dB's and the volume of the AVR is at -0. There is NO other reference. If you listen that loud, then that is where you want to start your AVR off with the sub trim level at 0.

That's not entirely true. Technically I could set reference up any given volume level I choose. Not all receivers are setup for reference at 0db because not all use the same display function. A friend of mines starts at zero and goes up from there.
post #53 of 115
THX badge is nothing more than a marketing gizmo to charge extra money and snag naive end users into buying mediocore products. Not necessarily though. You seriously require some reading regarding levels and your so-called REFERENCE level.
post #54 of 115
Quote:
Technically I could set reference up any given volume level I choose.

+1
post #55 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

That's not entirely true. Technically I could set reference up any given volume level I choose. Not all receivers are setup for reference at 0db because not all use the same display function. A friend of mines starts at zero and goes up from there.

You are right, and some AVR's reference -0 is different than others as well. Some movies are also not mixed to exact THX standards. Some are hot, some are less than ref. but generally speaker, reference is with your AVR at -0 and your speakers calibrated to 75dB with the internal -30dB noise.
post #56 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

You did good for the bold part at least! I guess we can say you are making progress. After that you fall apart with misinformation, once again. Reference is actually 85dB with 20dB headroom for peaks. Systems need to be capable of 105dB peaks for the speakers and 115dB for the subs. Considering you are not using full range speakers for each channel of your system and then you will also have channel summing for the LFE when you redirect bass to it, so a sub system capable of 120dB peaks is not a bad suggestion.
Please read this: http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/
You are correct that you run your noise and calibrate to 75dB, but this is -30Dbfs signal! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop posting misinformation. Get your facts straight before you confuse some poor chap that is trying to set his system by the actual proper guidelines.
FWIW, most bump boxes should be set at half if they have a gain knob. This is called the "detent" position and keeps the converter to changing the signal exactly to spec.

I said ..... HOME.......open your eyes buds.
post #57 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

I said ..... HOME.......open your eyes buds.

Which is exactly what that article refers to. I am not going to sit here and argue with you over what 90% of this forum and HT enthusiasts in general refer to as "reference level." You can create your own reference level all you want, but when I am talking about it, I am talking about 85dB with 105 dB peaks on the mains, and 115dB peaks on the sub channel. My system can do this with ease.
post #58 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Reference is when your system's speakers are all calibrated to 75dB's and the volume of the AVR is at -0. There is NO other reference. If you listen that loud, then that is where you want to start your AVR off with the sub trim level at 0.

That's not entirely true. Technically I could set reference up any given volume level I choose. Not all receivers are setup for reference at 0db because not all use the same display function. A friend of mines starts at zero and goes up from there.

The difference is "relative vs absolute" volume reading. Most modern AVRs with automated correction that I have setup have the Relative volume display which is relative to reference, with "expected" reference to occur at the "0" reading. However most home setups run out of gas waaay before reference in one way or another. I haven't seen an AVR without at least the option for relative volume display in yeaaaars.


Marty,

another thing to strongly consider is your high pass. Without the highpass filter you will likely damage the driver and it won't sound good either with the woofer flopping around under tuning. The EP4000 is flat to 5hz minus a db or two. It doesn't roll off @20Hz like your stock plate amp. This was on purpose to protect the driver.

Another thing to consider is you have no way to control the power to the driver. That amp puts ~650W into 4ohms which is nearly twice the power the original amp was capable of. This might sound good MOAR POWER!!!!!, but in reality without a high pass and too much power you will likely kill that driver.


OPTION: You could always seal the box and not worry about the high pass. This will however decrease the output capability of the sub but should help keep the driver out of trouble. Notice I said help, b/c in ~3.0ft^3 sealed that woofer still cant take 650W and stay under x-max. I sealed a couple of mine this way and am currenlty using them sealed but with only 250W each.

Not trying to discourage you, but if you do this like your saying you better have better disipline with the volume control than I do!!!!!biggrin.gif
post #59 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Which is exactly what that article refers to. I am not going to sit here and argue with you over what 90% of this forum and HT enthusiasts in general refer to as "reference level." You can create your own reference level all you want, but when I am talking about it, I am talking about 85dB with 105 dB peaks on the mains, and 115dB peaks on the sub channel. My system can do this with ease.

75dB spl is for home use man, come on and stop debating over something which I think is flying over your head. That's why i say READ MORE
post #60 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

THX badge is nothing more than a marketing gizmo to charge extra money and snag naive end users into buying mediocore products.

Oh? So the THX standard that I keep referring to, and that many of the high in sound engineer mix their movie soundtracks to, is just a marketing scam? Perhaps badging equipment is, but not the standard that has been set forth that many of your Blu-Rays are mixed to.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Problems with Behringer amp and Denon AVR