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Problems with Behringer amp and Denon AVR - Page 3

post #61 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

The difference is "relative vs absolute" volume reading. Most modern AVRs with automated correction that I have setup have the Relative volume display which is relative to reference, with "expected" reference to occur at the "0" reading. However most home setups run out of gas waaay before reference in one way or another. I haven't seen an AVR without at least the option for relative volume display in yeaaaars.

I have. wink.gif

I can still set up reference as whatever I like. Not everyone has auto EQ so I'm just trying to keep from confusing the issue by generalizing. smile.gif

As has already been stated; reference is 105 db for all channels, and 115 for the LFE, regardless of what the display says.
post #62 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by NicksHitachi View Post

Marty,
another thing to strongly consider is your high pass. Without the highpass filter you will likely damage the driver and it won't sound good either with the woofer flopping around under tuning. The EP4000 is flat to 5hz minus a db or two. It doesn't roll off @20Hz like your stock plate amp. This was on purpose to protect the driver.

He is right. That's the reason I bought iNuke NU6000 DSP. It has a floating point HPF down to 20Hz
post #63 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Oh? So the THX standard that I keep referring to, and that many of the high in sound engineer mix their movie soundtracks to, is just a marketing scam? Perhaps badging equipment is, but not the standard that has been set forth that many of your Blu-Rays are mixed to.

THX is just a loudness standard. My Denon 3313 is not THX certified and it skinned alive my older avr (Onkyo 809 THX Select certified) in every department. Some avrs just over achieve in terms of sustained loudness without clipping and still they do not get the THX certification. Guess why???? The manufacturers do not want to jack up the retail price on their gear coz THX badge costs money.
post #64 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

75dB spl is for home use man, come on and stop debating over something which I think is flying over your head. That's why i say READ MORE

Flying over my head eh? Kinda like the English language flies over yours? My speakers are set to 75dB using the internal noise signal. That is -30dBfs, this allows me to listen at -0 and get no more than 105dB peaks per regular channel, and since I am 5dB hot on the sub channel, 120dB without redirected bass. When I calibrate to 75dB you want to know something funny? Dialogue in the movies is usually right around 85dB when the volume on my AVR is at -0! What a coincidence!!!

I don't know why I am even arguing here, as you make some good points, and you are right, reference is usually too loud for people in the home. I VERY rarely listen at -0 on my AVR. I am usually between -10 and -5. Listening at -10, guess what? Dialogue is usually around 75dB!!! ANOTHER COINCIDENCE!!!!! Holy crap! I would have never thought!
post #65 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

THX is just a loudness standard. My Denon 3313 is not THX certified and it skinned alive my older avr (Onkyo 809 THX Select certified) in every department. Some avrs just over achieve in terms of sustained loudness without clipping and still they do not get the THX certification. Guess why???? The manufacturers do not want to jack up the retail price on their gear coz THX badge costs money.

I'd have to agree. A lot of receivers meet or exceed THX specifications but choose to forgo the certification due to the added cost. I wouldn't base receiver performance on that logo on iota.
post #66 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I have. wink.gif
I can still set up reference as whatever I like. Not everyone has auto EQ so I'm just trying to keep from confusing the issue by generalizing. smile.gif
As has already been stated; reference is 105 db for all channels, and 115 for the LFE, regardless of what the display says.

Thank you!!! and you are right, I shouldn't generalize but as the majority of AVR's out these days have auto-setup with Audyssey or the like, and many in this section including me go back in and make sure their speakers are at 75dB after eQ, I was only speaking for the majority.
post #67 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I'd have to agree. A lot of receivers meet or exceed THX specifications but choose to forgo the certification due to the added cost. I wouldn't base receiver performance on that logo on iota.

And I don't whatsoever. I have an onkyo for my den TV and it suits me just fine. The denon 4311 in my theater is a much more capable unit tho smile.gif
post #68 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Flying over my head eh? Kinda like the English language flies over yours? My speakers are set to 75dB using the internal noise signal. That is -30dBfs, this allows me to listen at -0 and get no more than 105dB peaks per regular channel, and since I am 5dB hot on the sub channel, 120dB without redirected bass. When I calibrate to 75dB you want to know something funny? Dialogue in the movies is usually right around 85dB when the volume on my AVR is at -0! What a coincidence!!!
I don't know why I am even arguing here, as you make some good points, and you are right, reference is usually too loud for people in the home. I VERY rarely listen at -0 on my AVR. I am usually between -10 and -5. Listening at -10, guess what? Dialogue is usually around 75dB!!! ANOTHER COINCIDENCE!!!!! Holy crap! I would have never thought!

My English is as good as yours smile.gif.

Quote:
My speakers are set to 75dB using the internal noise signal. That is -30dBfs, this allows me to listen at -0

When your avr sets the speakers to 75dB defaulting the master volume at 00, that means SPL at listening position is 75dB. Although movies are mixed at 85dB, but they play at 75dB coz your avr has set the channel trims to negative values with master volume at 00. So in reality, you are listening at 75dB normal and 95dB peak. Think over it man, don't fume.
post #69 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

And I don't whatsoever. I have an onkyo for my den TV and it suits me just fine. The denon 4311 in my theater is a much more capable unit tho smile.gif

But are you comparing apples to apples for receivers. smile.gif That 4311 is no slouch. It's performance has nothing to do with the THX logo either.
post #70 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

That 4311 is no slouch. It's performance has nothing to do with the THX logo either.

Bang on target
post #71 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

The gain on AVR not dropped.
Sensitivity level knob on ART CleanBox Pro at max position.
And guess what....the level attenuator on Crown went further north east. It was on 12 o clock position before and now at 3. I tested it at my reference volume on avr (75dB spl on rat shack)......no clipping. Alpine is taking more beating than ever for a very clean hit. The output is a tad crude but that's coz it is a test box and I built it from chipboard. I will do the final build with MDF.

Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

My English is as good as yours smile.gif.
When your avr sets the speakers to 75dB defaulting the master volume at 00, that means SPL at listening position is 75dB. Although movies are mixed at 85dB, but they play at 75dB coz your avr has set the channel trims to negative values with master volume at 00. So in reality, you are listening at 75dB normal and 95dB peak. Think over it man, don't fume.

I referenced the first quote to demonstrate my point regarding your prose. Maybe you are just on your phone. All good.

Since you have a denon as well, I know exactly how the process works. Answer these questions, they are yes or no:

You say you go in to the "speaker level" tab and level match to 75dB on each speaker using your rsmeter yes?

You use the -30dBfs signal supplied by the Denon 3313?

Does 75+30=105?

When I add the calibrated 75dB plus 30 more dB to get to a -0dBfs signal does that equal 105dB?

So should I get 105dB peaks with the AVR at -0?

The channel trims are COMPLETELY dependent on the type of speaker you are running, the room you are playing them in, the external amp (if you are using one) and the distance from which your listening position is from each individual speaker.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

But are you comparing apples to apples for receivers. smile.gif That 4311 is no slouch. It's performance has nothing to do with the THX logo either.

I was not insinuating that. My old as dirt Onkyo can not hold a candle to the 4311. I am not saying the AVR's performance has anything to do with THX certification either. I was trying to point out that my Old onkyo is on cable TV duty (THX certified) and I am using a non-thx AVR for my high end setup. I don't let their certifications of equipment sway my decision, ever. The 4311 is not even in the same ballpark. It doesnt need some badge on it to be perfectly capable of producing audio.
Edited by beastaudio - 12/14/12 at 11:16am
post #72 of 115
Regarding the the post you are referring to, i was just being to the point on the topic.

Quote:
You say you go in to the "speaker level" tab and level match to 75dB on each speaker using your rsmeter yes?

No. I set the level trim of Font Left speaker to 00 position. The moment you run the internal test tones, denon starts playing test tones at reference volume (00). I set the trim at 00, which is obiously way too loud coz the master volume automatically goes to 00. So keeping the channel level fixed at 00, I back off the master volume and leave it where the rat shack reads 75dB. That level is -6dB below reference on master volume. Same procedure applies to all channels.
Quote:
You say you go in to the "speaker level" tab and level match to 75dB on each speaker using your rsmeter yes?

yes.

I am not doing childish maths that follows.

You can achieve reference at any voulme reading on avr, if you jack up the trim levels. FWIW, how can you listen to movies at 85dB if your avr is calibrated at 75dB? You are always at -10dB below reference even when your master volume is at 00 on avr. Your channel trims are governing your relative listening. In fact, you have to be at +10dB on master volume if you want to enjoy the movie as it was recorded keeping every other setting CONSTANT. And that constant is channel trim levels, which work in tandem with master volume. 00 on master volume is just easy to remember, that is why manufacturers use it. The real reference that must be kept in mind is the recording level in the movies and NOT the master volume on AVR. I keep the levels of front three speakers (at least) at 00 in order to get the maximum dynamic range and full signal coz they carry the maximum portion of sound in any movie.
post #73 of 115
Wow, I am done here. I feel like I just wasted half my day. I am glad it is Friday and work is slow. You just answered a yes/no question twice and contradicted yourself.
post #74 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Wow, I am done here. I feel like I just wasted half my day. I am glad it is Friday and work is slow. You just answered a yes/no question twice and contradicted yourself.

Do the maths and figure out yourslef. Um done knocking logic down your throat. I know what I am doing or else I'd not be posting here. Your entire knowledge is based on printed brochures and manuals. Lord has bestowed a thing called brain upon you, use it. Um all spent, at least on you. You are a slouch at extracting logic.
post #75 of 115
Once again, that prose thing bro rolleyes.gif
post #76 of 115
Seems to me that the fact remains that your original assertion that the OPs issue HAD to be too low voltage from the receiver was wrong. Your assertions that he should trust you because you know what you're talking about and wouldn't be posting if you didn't were wrong. Other posters have cited specific receivers that had way more than enough voltage to push a pro amp. At least one of them probably has much more experience in this hobby than you. Regardless of the merits of this more recent disagreement, you were wrong on your original point--a point which you were adamant and cocksure about. Readers should weigh everything said after accordingly.

Can't stand when people act like bulls in a china shop and swear they know everything. mad.gif
post #77 of 115
watch your language and stop soundling like shawshanks warden.
post #78 of 115
post #79 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

watch your language and stop soundling like shawshanks warden.

Watch my language? LMAO.

A. Nothing inappropriate in my post. B. I'm a grown man, tough guy.
post #80 of 115
If you have anything worthwhile to add here, pls do. Or else keep your opinions to yourself about me. Do not judge me based on what you've been gleaning out of the thread. Add something worthwhile or keep your cockiness to your own precinct.
post #81 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

If you have anything worthwhile to add here, pls do. Or else keep your opinions to yourself about me. Do not judge me based on what you've been gleaning out of the thread. Add something worthwhile or keep your cockiness to your own precinct.

Interesting choice of words there. My username is beside zero posts declaring with absolute assuredness of how right I am. And zero posts after having been proven wrong, not backing off said assuredness. That would be your username. But carry on...please let us all know how much more you know than everyone else, including peoplr who have measured 12 volts (twelve) out of their "shameful" consumer receivers. I'll prepare the butter for the popcorn in the meanwhile.

You'd think people would realize that there is always something new to learn from others and show a smidge of humility when proven wrong.
post #82 of 115
add some cheese also, coz it has gone way too cheesy here. My choice of words is inspired by your spontaneous out-of-the-blue post. Over and out from my side. I have to reply the pm from op.
post #83 of 115
beast is correct.

"reference" is 105db peak from the mains and 115db peak from the sub before re-routed bass.

this level is often calibrated using a signal that is -20dbfs, so 85db at the listening position.

for many, that is still too loud during calibration, so some systems employ a -30dbfs signal, so 75db at the listening position.

it doesn't matter which calibration signal is used, the end result is the same.

when the main volume is -0db, the peak spl from the mains will be 105db at the listening position.

most folks don't like it that loud, so set the main volume to -5db or -10db.

some folks like the lfe channel hot, so set the lfe trim to +5db or so.
post #84 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post

add some cheese also, coz it has gone way too cheesy here. My choice of words is inspired by your spontaneous out-of-the-blue post. Over and out from my side. I have to reply the pm from op.

I will then tell the OP here that should he choose to listen to your incorrect assumptions that he is going to be chasing his proverbial "tail" for quite a while wondering why his system doesn't sound correct. I am done with that conversation as well... IF the OP wants real world experience that is actually correct, he can PM me or several of the other more seasoned guys around here. Just trying to prevent people from making the same mistakes you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

beast is correct.
"reference" is 105db peak from the mains and 115db peak from the sub before re-routed bass.
this level is often calibrated using a signal that is -20dbfs, so 85db at the listening position.
for many, that is still too loud during calibration, so some systems employ a -30dbfs signal, so 75db at the listening position.
it doesn't matter which calibration signal is used, the end result is the same.
when the main volume is -0db, the peak spl from the mains will be 105db at the listening position.
most folks don't like it that loud, so set the main volume to -5db or -10db.
some folks like the lfe channel hot, so set the lfe trim to +5db or so.

Thanks LTD...
post #85 of 115
I find it all a crap shoot myself. While there is supposed to be a standard in place for reference encoding, I still find volume varying quite a bit from one master to another. Throw out DTSMA, Dobly TrueHD, etc, and all bets are off for a consistent volume level.
post #86 of 115
"I find it all a crap shoot myself. While there is supposed to be a standard in place for reference encoding, I still find volume varying quite a bit from one master to another."

+1...just because there is a standard doesn't mean anybody follows it!
post #87 of 115
Thread Starter 
Ok, now I am thoroughly confused. How can my Denon AVR be calibrated to reference if using Audyssey? What I mean is that if I run Audyssey the AVR-3312 has already done the trim levels, distance settings, and frequency responce EQ'ing, so if I were to go into the setup menu to "calibrate" the volume using the trim levels+test tones+SPL meter, then wouldn't that mess up what Audyssey as already done? I was under the assumption that these types of things, ie trim levels, can not be altered on a Denon AVR after Audyssey has done its thing?

Also, what does dbfs mean? Lets get back on topic and hopefully clear up the confusion on how to properly integrate a pro-amp, such as the Behringer EP4000 into a home theater environment with a modern receiver, such as my Denon AVR-3312.
post #88 of 115
When you adjust the levels after Audyssey, your just making sure the levels are even. Set your avr volume to zero. Then you'll know where the avr has them set(75 or 85). Wether they are at 75 or 85 is kind of irrelevant IMO since your going to adjust it to your liking with everything you watch anyway. Another option is to have a test tone DVD that has the tones recorded at 85 dbs's.

As for the pro amp, most modern avr's will have plenty of signal voltage for the amp. The issues pop up when this signal is too low. Putting something like an unbalanced minidsp in the chain can be an issue because the minidsp output voltage will be .9 volts regardless of the signal that its given. This can be too low for a pro amp. You would most likely need an unbalanced model or something that will bump the signal up with this setup. Think of it like needing a preamp for a record player.
post #89 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Ok, now I am thoroughly confused. How can my Denon AVR be calibrated to reference if using Audyssey? What I mean is that if I run Audyssey the AVR-3312 has already done the trim levels, distance settings, and frequency responce EQ'ing, so if I were to go into the setup menu to "calibrate" the volume using the trim levels+test tones+SPL meter, then wouldn't that mess up what Audyssey as already done? I was under the assumption that these types of things, ie trim levels, can not be altered on a Denon AVR after Audyssey has done its thing?
Also, what does dbfs mean? Lets get back on topic and hopefully clear up the confusion on how to properly integrate a pro-amp, such as the Behringer EP4000 into a home theater environment with a modern receiver, such as my Denon AVR-3312.

Some would say that you shouldn't touch anything after audyssey does its thing but I like to go in and change a good bit of stuff after the fact. A) audyssey sets my mains to large, so I drop it back down to "small" and adjust the crossovers to 80hz which is a good place for all my speakers to start from. This doesnt necessarily mean the same is true for your system though. Next I go in and adjust the trim levels IF and on if, audyssey didn't get them all right the first time around. I usually see with my 4311 that it gets the speakers closer to 72dB than 75dB so I usually end up bumping everything up to 75dBs. I dont use dynamic EQ so therefore I also bump all the surround channels a few dB's as I rarely listen to anything at -0 on the main volume control. Once that is all done, I check the distance levels that audyssey set and measure how far each of my speakers are from me to make sure it got that right. It sounds like a lot of work but it really only takes about 5 minutes to get all that set up right. My system is a little more advanced than a plain ole' 7.1 setup tho as well so it takes a little extra lovin' to get everything set up just right.
post #90 of 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Lets get back on topic and hopefully clear up the confusion on how to properly integrate a pro-amp, such as the Behringer EP4000 into a home theater environment with a modern receiver, such as my Denon AVR-3312.

Do you have a multimeter to see how many volts you get from the subwoofer output?

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/35677-gain-structure-home-theater-getting-most-pro-audio-equipment-your-system.html#post317692

 

I really didn't follow that guide when setting up my pro-amp, seems like a lot of work lol. When I first got my receiver I measured the sub output and it measured 1.4v with the volume at 00 and sub trims at 0. I hooked up the pro amp and let Audyssey do its thing. After the first measurement I calculated the Audyssey results to see what my sub trim was set to. If it was too low I would dial down the gain on the amp and run Audyssey again till it set the subwoofer trim at 0. After all that was done, my EP4000 was set to 8db gain and my subwoofer trim at 0. I have no idea if this even close to correct to setting the gain properly but I get plenty of output so I'm happy.

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