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Color level and tint controls on projectors??

post #1 of 26
12/14/12 at 6:05am
Thread Starter 
OK I have just bought a new BenQ wm516 Projector.

I had an older HP vp6320 which it replaced. (7years old)

The HP allows me to control color level and tint.

The BenQ WM516 does not.

I have been told to use the ISF controls to do this.

I have been told this is how ALL new projectors now work.

IS THIS TRUE??

I want a projector that has color and tint controls working on all inputs.

Does anyone know of 3D projectors that have these working controls??

Thanks.

Rich
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post #2 of 26
12/14/12 at 6:26am
Color and Tint are associated with Component video and do not exist in the Digital world. Manufacture fabricate these controls on many displays because consumers think they need them. Most time when a pro calibrates a display, even if they do have these controls, they are left at their default value. Many displays now have CMS (color management systems) that, if they work correctly (many don't) can be used to calibrate the primary, secondary points and luminous of each color. 10 point gray scale controls in user menus are now common as well.
So what you want, you really don't need.
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post #3 of 26
12/14/12 at 6:39am
Thread Starter 
But by your own words: " CMS (color management systems) that, if they work correctly (many don't) "

You can say that a few times, I find playing TV shows on my computer monitor that needs color and tint control...which now thanks to ATI the video card now has.

I think you mean composite video, don't you??

If you did not typo and your really meant component Video which make and model of projectors leave the color and tint controls on with that input.?

Other that a smaller cable and lwss hookups I can not see any improvment in picture with HDMI over component.

Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Color and Tint are associated with Component video and do not exist in the Digital world. Manufacture fabricate these controls on many displays because consumers think they need them. Most time when a pro calibrates a display, even if they do have these controls, they are left at their default value. Many displays now have CMS (color management systems) that, if they work correctly (many don't) can be used to calibrate the primary, secondary points and luminous of each color. 10 point gray scale controls in user menus are now common as well.
So what you want, you really don't need.

Edited by racprops - 12/14/12 at 7:37am
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post #4 of 26
12/14/12 at 7:57am
This article may help to explain .. http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles/settingcolorandtint.html
Also if you can change your output and input from RGB to YCbCr sometimes the grayed out color/tint controls will become useable. This all assumes you are using a digital input. With Component Red Blue Green or composite yellow you should have color and tint controls
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post #5 of 26
12/14/12 at 8:14am
Thread Starter 
That is what happened with the HP I used a component to SVGA connector and fed it thought SVGA Cables to the projector (and thought a mulit switcher to my TV and from my DVD player and another switcher to allow my computer to hook up to the projector)

But hooking the BenQ WM516 to this same set up grayed out the color controls.

I cannot get a straight answer or in depth answer out of the guys on the BenQ W1070 thread on this deal.

Would you know of any other brands of projector with about the same features of the BenQ W1070 with control working?

Rich


Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

This article may help to explain .. http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/articles/settingcolorandtint.html
Also if you can change your output and input from RGB to YCbCr sometimes the grayed out color/tint controls will become useable. This all assumes you are using a digital input. With Component Red Blue Green or composite yellow you should have color and tint controls
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post #6 of 26
12/14/12 at 8:39am
If you look at page 40 of your users guide, try changing PC & component tuning to something other than auto to see what happens.

Also in System Setup Advanced change the HDMI from auto to video.. Seem like you projector thinks it is getting a digital signal..

Also if color is over saturated turn off brilliant color if it is on.. that is another gimmick
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post #7 of 26
12/14/12 at 10:00am
Thread Starter 
Thanks real help for once...a thousand thanks.

Page forty in my manual talks about the timers...I am running a BenQ wm516 model.

I will try that.

I like the Brilliant color as it also pumps up all other rest of the video.

The color is just as saturated with BC off, just everything is dimmer...

Rich
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post #8 of 26
12/14/12 at 10:27am
Thread Starter 
Well tried all your suggestions and found color and tint control only works with S-video, which is so bad i will NEVER EVER watch anything on it again.


"System Setup Advanced change the HDMI from auto to video'

Is not there but I did turn off auto single search and can manually select what input I use.

Are you running a BenQ W1070??

Rich
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post #9 of 26
12/14/12 at 10:57am
No I do not own a BenQ projector, i have an old HC3000 which has no Color and Tint controls with a digital signal. However once the 2point gray scale is calibrated correctly color is fine. I do not use anything but HD box and BR player since most PC video cards muck with the signal and I have no need for that with what I watch.
Sorry it is not working out for you but I have not advice on what to buy.
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post #10 of 26
12/14/12 at 11:02am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your help.

Rich
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post #11 of 26
12/14/12 at 11:42am
The difference between component and VGA was explained to you in the other thread you started on this very topic. you didn't like the answers you got, so you **** on me and left the thread...now you 've started all over again.
For someone who claims to be a tv repairman, you really don't understand much about video signals.
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post #12 of 26
12/14/12 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
I am not asking about HDMI vs VGA, I am now asking if ALL new model projectors have this lock out of Color controls.

I am trying to find out if other makes and models will allow working Color and Tint control, different question.

I gave up on getting a good answer and called The Projector People and talked with one of their techs.

I learned a few things, like how misleading 3d ready and 3d capable labeling is on projectors...most of junk..

And that if I want color and tint controls I want a Made specially for home theater projector and that those will 90% of the time will have them, even in HDMI. (at lease that was what he said.)

And that the incoming BenQ W1070 is in deed the best up coming 3D projector, that there is nothing close.

OK?

Rich

PS I did get my HDMI cables and they did not fix anything...and I found that the devices I plug into are then locked to the HDMI and lock out the other outputs...
Can't say i like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

The difference between component and VGA was explained to you in the other thread you started on this very topic. you didn't like the answers you got, so you **** on me and left the thread...now you 've started all over again.
For someone who claims to be a tv repairman, you really don't understand much about video signals.
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post #13 of 26
12/14/12 at 1:08pm
Quote:
I am not asking about HDMI vs VGA

Me neither, never mentioned HDMi in my post...what are you reading?

As for the rest, You've been answered many many times...I guess you just don't understand the words.

Quote:
I did get my HDMI cables and they did not fix anything...

that's because nothing is broken.
Quote:
and I found that the devices I plug into are then locked to the HDMI and lock out the other outputs...

this has nothing to do with your projector.
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post #14 of 26
12/14/12 at 11:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Me neither, never mentioned HDMi in my post...what are you reading?
As for the rest, You've been answered many many times...I guess you just don't understand the words.
that's because nothing is broken.
this has nothing to do with your projector.

IT does if it is hooked to the projector.
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post #15 of 26
12/15/12 at 6:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by racprops View Post

IT does if it is hooked to the projector.

You'll find it does this if it's connected to any display device....nothing to do with the projector.
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post #16 of 26
12/15/12 at 7:16am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

You'll find it does this if it's connected to any display device....nothing to do with the projector.

Seems to be true.

But I learned about HDMI hooking up my projector, as up until now I had use component video in all my hook ups.

It is a fact I think people need to know.

I had not seen any reports on that action.

In my case it made a big change and if I want to use HDMI I have to commit TOTALLY to hook everything by HDMI..

A little more that I had planned for and would have been nice to have know that upfront.

Rich
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post #17 of 26
12/15/12 at 6:32pm
Quote:
A little more that I had planned for and would have been nice to have know that upfront.

It's never been a secret.
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post #18 of 26
12/15/12 at 6:44pm
Thread Starter 
I did not say it was a secret, but I had not seen any thing said before this.

So I said it.

At least the next guy who reads this will not be surprised as I was.

Rich
Edited by racprops - 12/15/12 at 7:32pm
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post #19 of 26
12/19/12 at 12:06pm
Thread Starter 
OK Here is my final report on the problem of color level and tint control.

The BenQw1070 is like the BenQMW516, IE these controls are grayed out and as far as I have been able to find out almost if not all new projectors lack they as well.

I have found three cures for this problem.

One is an old control box I made with three 10 turn controls that allow me to lower the three component video signals. (Green is the black and white and the other two are mixed colors, and they together act like tint controls..)

The second is when playing video into the projector from a computer I am using a ATI R5450 video card that has controls for color level and tint control, and that controls even the output to monitors and the HDMI and DVI outputs. These then control the picture any projector is showing.

That left the feed from my soon to be dead Cable box.

That I was able to fix by running the component video to a Hauppage HD-PVR, then into my computer and watch the video with Arcsoft TotalMedia (came with the HD PVR) and one little double click and it is full screen.

AND THIS PROGRAM HAS ITS OWN COLOR LEVEL AND TINT AND SHARPNESS AND BRIGHTNESS AND CONTRAST CONTROLS.

Why bother with the cable box? Because I also will now be able to control any video like from my DVD players as well.

TO heck with HDMI, it stinks.

So I am now in total control of my videos.

Rich
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post #20 of 26
12/30/12 at 8:12am
Thread Starter 
Well this will most likely be my final report: Here.

Bought the Epson 3010 at Best Buy for $929.00.

After a little connection problems, I got is working and we have been watching Prometheus 3D and wow...

A side Note even with HDMI this projector has color level and tint controls...and once selected they drop down to a single control bar almost completely out of the pictures so you can see what your adjusting...everything I wanted...

After my experience with the BenQ MW516 I got the feeling it is a touch on the cheap side. It would start green and then after a few seconds the red would come up and we got flesh tone.

It also had a problem I only saw with the Infocus X1, a reaction to bright scenes, where it would black out for a second of two...

Overall I am NOT impressed with BenQ.

Rich
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post #21 of 26
12/30/12 at 8:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by racprops View Post

Well this will most likely be my final report: Here.
Bought the Epson 3010 at Best Buy for $929.00.

Overall I am NOT impressed with BenQ.
Rich

Wow, you are buying bottom of the barrel under $1000 projectors, what is it you expect??
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post #22 of 26
2/28/13 at 9:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

Color and Tint are associated with Component video and do not exist in the Digital world. Manufacture fabricate these controls on many displays because consumers think they need them. Most time when a pro calibrates a display, even if they do have these controls, they are left at their default value. Many displays now have CMS (color management systems) that, if they work correctly (many don't) can be used to calibrate the primary, secondary points and luminous of each color. 10 point gray scale controls in user menus are now common as well.
So what you want, you really don't need.
Lol, sorry for posting in an old thread, but I was asking this question before in the BenQ W1070 thread which is the projector I will be soon getting.

I understand that you said the Color and tint controls arnt needed when using a digital signal or HDMI. So what I wanted to ask was, does that mean the Color controls are already set properly? This is a good thing I think for RGB based stuff like games. Id imagine if you outputted something like YCBCR through a player to a projector the controls would be back available again.
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post #23 of 26
2/28/13 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

Lol, sorry for posting in an old thread, but I was asking this question before in the BenQ W1070 thread which is the projector I will be soon getting.

I understand that you said the Color and tint controls arnt needed when using a digital signal or HDMI. So what I wanted to ask was, does that mean the Color controls are already set properly? This is a good thing I think for RGB based stuff like games. Id imagine if you outputted something like YCBCR through a player to a projector the controls would be back available again.

I have been looking for a good article that explains this but can not seem to find the one I am thinking of. The fact is that the color and tint was something needed with the way analog works. Like other adjustment such as sharpness it has been kept around since the consumers have always had it and feel that they must have it. So the manufactures add it to the firmware of many sets not just projectors. If the decoder is created properly there is no need for it. During the calibrations process you do adjust it but from what I have seen in my limited number of calibrations is that the default is normally correct even on displays that have the adjustments. CMS (color management systems) is now available on may displays that allow the calibrator to adjust the saturation, tint an luminous levels of each of the primary and secondary colors. These systems sometimes work well and other times not well, as they are all software based and sometime just put there for marketing reasons whether they work correctly or not. These systems require a meter, software, pattern source and knowledge to be used and can not really be set by eye. The W1070 does have a CMS so if it work well, the color should be able to be dialed in when calibrated.

Here is a blog entry by Michael Chen a THX instructor, that explains the history of video and could be helpful in understanding why color/tint is not really needed.
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2011/12/why-tvs-are-not-calibrated-from-factory/

This one (I have not had a chance to read it yet) is on CMS
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/02/color-management-system-pie-eat-half-or-all/

looks over his index of articles, lots of interesting reading.
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post #24 of 26
2/28/13 at 1:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I have been looking for a good article that explains this but can not seem to find the one I am thinking of. The fact is that the color and tint was something needed with the way analog works. Like other adjustment such as sharpness it has been kept around since the consumers have always had it and feel that they must have it. So the manufactures add it to the firmware of many sets not just projectors. If the decoder is created properly there is no need for it. During the calibrations process you do adjust it but from what I have seen in my limited number of calibrations is that the default is normally correct even on displays that have the adjustments. CMS (color management systems) is now available on may displays that allow the calibrator to adjust the saturation, tint an luminous levels of each of the primary and secondary colors. These systems sometimes work well and other times not well, as they are all software based and sometime just put there for marketing reasons whether they work correctly or not. These systems require a meter, software, pattern source and knowledge to be used and can not really be set by eye. The W1070 does have a CMS so if it work well, the color should be able to be dialed in when calibrated.

Here is a blog entry by Michael Chen a THX instructor, that explains the history of video and could be helpful in understanding why color/tint is not really needed.
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2011/12/why-tvs-are-not-calibrated-from-factory/

This one (I have not had a chance to read it yet) is on CMS
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2013/02/color-management-system-pie-eat-half-or-all/

looks over his index of articles, lots of interesting reading.
Thank you very much Airscapes, I'll get reading smile.gif
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post #25 of 26
2/28/13 at 8:12pm
Right. I think I understand why digital displays shouldn't need a Color and tint controls, but one thing I'd like to ask is, why do displays make the controls reapear again when using an analogue cable like composite or component?

And are the controls still unessesary even with content that is encoded in YCBCR?
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post #26 of 26
3/1/13 at 4:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrone Burton View Post

Right. I think I understand why digital displays shouldn't need a Color and tint controls, but one thing I'd like to ask is, why do displays make the controls reapear again when using an analogue cable like composite or component?

And are the controls still unessesary even with content that is encoded in YCBCR?

You could possibly need it when using analog so it makes sense that it would be there. The signal from an old VCR using composite to play 25year old home movies could possibly use a bump in color.
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