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Is "reference level" LOUD to YOU?

Poll Results: Is properly reproduced (read: relatively low distortion, unstrained/unclipped programme) "reference level" playback (concening properly mastered cinema media) :

 
  • 11% (18)
    1. Perfect. This is the way movies should sound.
  • 34% (53)
    2. A bit too loud for me/my guests, I'm usually between -10 and 0 on the volume dial
  • 32% (50)
    3. Too loud, I'm usually between -10 and -15 on the volume dial
  • 17% (27)
    4. Much too loud, I'm usually - 15 or more on the volume dial
  • 3% (5)
    5. Ae you crazy, it's not loud enough, I spend most of my time in "0+ land"
153 Total Votes  
post #1 of 262
12/17/12 at 8:45am
Thread Starter 
I don't do a lot of polls (really, never, lol) but I figured I'd throw this one out for the holiday season, as it's always intrigued me.

All I ask is that you have a good idea as to what "reference" level is before responding, and let's assume please that your system can reproduce it with relative "cleanliness" or that you're at least certain you've experienced it elsewhere, in such a state.

Here's a few links to assist those who may be unsure and others feel free to clarify further if helpful!

http://www.thx.com/consumer/thx-technology/thx-reference-level/

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/av-home-theater/24761-what-reference-level.html#axzz2FKMkcysf

Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, and all that good stuff to all!!! biggrin.gif

James
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post #2 of 262
12/17/12 at 8:52am
Thread Starter 
cast me in with the "bit too loud" crowd and prolly the same for the lions share of my guests with some lower, still.

Reference is just freakin loud to me for for most 90 to 120 minute movies. Although I will say in a truly dedicated space (read: bona fide home theater), I think things change a bit, psychologically, and a few more dbs magically become "ok".

Every time I walk into my wives family's church I lmao at the consistent 90-100+db readings I get off a system with considerably less fidelity than my own, and that's perfectly ok, but my rig at -10dbs is too loud for a certain someone...go figure. rolleyes.gif


James
Edited by mastermaybe - 12/17/12 at 9:04am
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post #3 of 262
12/17/12 at 9:06am
I voted reference but I think the problem is that people assume they can play cleanly at reference and then say it is too loud and turn it down. Many times it is too much distortion at reference and why it is too loud. I just recently measured my center channel and subs for distortion at reference at my LP and my speakers are very sensitive and require little power to reach 105 dBs. You would be surprised how much THD there is at reference even with capable speakers and not at frequencies you would think.
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post #4 of 262
12/17/12 at 9:36am
I voted #2. Now, that's coming from a guy still using 'conventional' speakers in a largely untreated room.

Using quality high sensitivity speakers and having some room treatment.... I'd prolly go with option #1.
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post #5 of 262
12/17/12 at 9:44am
I voted #2. 90% of the time I usually have the MV at between -5db's & -10bd's.
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post #6 of 262
12/17/12 at 9:50am
I voted less -15MV. Most of the time, my MV is at -20db to -25dbMV, but that is on an uncalibrated system. For all I know, I could actually be at -12db to reference? Regardless, I rarely listen to movies louder than -15db if I am by myself and never listened to an entire movie at the volume with the family. Music, however, sometimes gets cranked to -5db for a while since I'll listen in another room.
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post #7 of 262
12/17/12 at 9:58am
I voted - 15 or more. Even in movie theaters like AMC and the like I find it too loud.

At home I suppose room treatments and higher sensitivity/lower THD speakers would help but 100db+ is just uncomfortable for 2 hour viewings.
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post #8 of 262
12/17/12 at 9:59am
I didn't answer because I have no way to measure to see where my system is. I am curious to see what the people who have reference capable systems say. I would make a guess and say I wouldn't make it through an entire movie at that level.

Chris
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post #9 of 262
12/17/12 at 10:08am
I'm pretty confident I listen to stuff a reference or near reference almost all of the time. One of the surprises at the recent GTG I went to is that 'loud' - even to these bassheads - is 'normal' for me. I've had my hearing checked recently so I know it's not hearing loss. It's how the music sounds at that volume - not so loud it hurts, but loud enough to really 'feel' it.
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post #10 of 262
12/17/12 at 10:09am
That's a tough one to quantify because it varies so much from one movie to the next. Reference on one movie (0db on receiver) will be too loud, and on another one it's not loud enough.

Now if we're talking reference based on the strict definition of the word (measured off meter); than I'd have to agree that clean, undistorted playback isn't too loud for me.

A lot of this has to do with room size and treatments though too. A room with no sound treatment that suffers from excessive ringing will be far less tolerable at reference than one that has had the proper acoustic treatments applied.
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post #11 of 262
12/17/12 at 10:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I voted reference but I think the problem is that people assume they can play cleanly at reference and then say it is too loud and turn it down. Many times it is too much distortion at reference and why it is too loud. I just recently measured my center channel and subs for distortion at reference at my LP and my speakers are very sensitive and require little power to reach 105 dBs. You would be surprised how much THD there is at reference even with capable speakers and not at frequencies you would think.

I composed the poll under such criteria so all you can do is assume- especially in the DIY area- that people understand and can make the distinction.

I for one can do reference and have heard it under numerous systems and it has always been too loud to me for extended periods of time. And judging by the early results here pointing to -10/-15 and beyond it seems that it's much too loud for most. I don't think it's fair to necessarily assume respondents don't know what they're hearing or are unaware of a given systems capabilities...I think there's a much better chance that it's simply too loud for their tastes.

Conversely, I'd actually contend that- considering how relatively small many folks rooms are- there are larger number that CAN do reference, decently. At 8-10 feet you don't need a lot of power or klipschorns to produce clean 85db continuous with 105 db peak output.

Well, about 4 watts for 85dbs continuous and ~120 for the 105db peaks at about 8-10 feet with ~90-92 db sens loudspeakers, to be precise. Very modest amplifier output levels, to be sure, and certainly playback levels many competently constructed loudspeakers can achieve at that distance. And that's the 800lb gorilla in the room: distance. Of course when you start talking about distances of 15-20 feet and beyond you have an entirely different dialogue on your hands.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 12/17/12 at 12:02pm
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post #12 of 262
12/17/12 at 10:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I'm pretty confident I listen to stuff a reference or near reference almost all of the time. One of the surprises at the recent GTG I went to is that 'loud' - even to these bassheads - is 'normal' for me. I've had my hearing checked recently so I know it's not hearing loss. It's how the music sounds at that volume - not so loud it hurts, but loud enough to really 'feel' it.

I'm sure you do biggrin.gif , but bass is different. Just to make sure we are on the same page since you mention "bassheads". I like to run 5-10db hot on the LFE channel. However, I can't take the mids at or near reference for 2 hours.
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post #13 of 262
12/17/12 at 10:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I voted reference but I think the problem is that people assume they can play cleanly at reference and then say it is too loud and turn it down. Many times it is too much distortion at reference and why it is too loud. I just recently measured my center channel and subs for distortion at reference at my LP and my speakers are very sensitive and require little power to reach 105 dBs. You would be surprised how much THD there is at reference even with capable speakers and not at frequencies you would think.

Is it the high frequencies?  It would seem to me that many people's systems start to get harsh as the volume is increased.  

 

Do you people that listen at reference employ Audyssey or some other high freq roll off?  For me, with the Audyssey roll-off I tend to listen about 5db louder than if I employ a flat curve at the high frequencies.

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post #14 of 262
12/17/12 at 10:37am
depends on who is over and what movies we are watching- no point in watching a comedy at reference. The avengers on the other hand......... Generally I know to turn it down when i see my guests plugging their ears more then once.
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post #15 of 262
12/17/12 at 10:53am
On Saturday at Gorilla83's GTG we had an omnimic set up at LP so I was able to experience where measured reference fell for a number of different movie scenes and songs, nice to hear someone else's room, different speakers etc. and have that SPL reference. I've done my own (rougher) measuring from LP in my system and I can hit 110db from 12hz on up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

That's a tough one to quantify because it varies so much from one movie to the next. Reference on one movie (0db on receiver) will be too loud, and on another one it's not loud enough.
Now if we're talking reference based on the strict definition of the word (measured off meter); than I'd have to agree that clean, undistorted playback isn't too loud for me.
A lot of this has to do with room size and treatments though too. A room with no sound treatment that suffers from excessive ringing will be far less tolerable at reference than one that has had the proper acoustic treatments applied.
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post #16 of 262
12/17/12 at 11:01am
I sit 9ft away from 93db+ diy speakers that use pro drivers, and reference is to loud. I only like the sensitivity for the, "I can go loud" feeling, and the fact that the system isn't working hard to play peaks.

-22 is my go to for regular viewing.

-15 for a fun movie with the family or me and the wife.

-10 if I'm by myself and enjoying it.

-5 if I'm by myself and want to see how much I can push it.

I've never bothered with 0 for more than a minute or so to prove something. And even then I stand back.
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post #17 of 262
12/17/12 at 11:15am
I may demo some scenes at reference or even slightly above just to test things at that level but never sit down to watch movies with it set that high.
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post #18 of 262
12/17/12 at 11:23am
Thread Starter 
^ likely primetimeguy. But "high frequencies" are much more bothersome to the sensitive human ear if even perfectly reproduced. Countless studies have proven our hearing is not linear and finds same-level mid and upper freqs to be much more abrasive...another reason why the whole reference thing can really be too loud for folks even if perfectly reproduced.

James
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post #19 of 262
12/17/12 at 11:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I sit 9ft away from 93db+ diy speakers that use pro drivers, and reference is to loud. I only like the sensitivity for the, "I can go loud" feeling, and the fact that the system isn't working hard to play peaks.
-22 is my go to for regular viewing.
-15 for a fun movie with the family or me and the wife.
-10 if I'm by myself and enjoying it.
-5 if I'm by myself and want to see how much I can push it.
I've never bothered with 0 for more than a minute or so to prove something. And even then I stand back.

^ Pretty much sounds like me, lmao.

Watch the final Incredible Hulk scene at "0" once. 105db "peaks" seem to occur pretty damn consistently, lol.

Gloriously, humorously, and stupidly f'n loud.

James
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post #20 of 262
12/17/12 at 11:41am
like a few others my normal viewing is at -22 to even -25db. Action movies I'll bump up to -12 to -10 if I'm really feeling like having it way up. Unless I'm demoing for someone and they ask for it, I never run at reference. I just had my first hearing test in forever last week and my upper frequency hearing is way above average so that could explain why i don't run stuff as loud.
Im running a house curve to bump the lower frequencies up some
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post #21 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:00pm
This thread cracks me up. Every thread on this forum is about reaching reference. Reference capability. Reference levels. 120db. Reference isn't enough. Etc. Then when the question is truly asked, nobody listens to reference except a small few. I used to use dome tweeters cause of cost, and I took some serious flak for that on these forums. Oh, they can't do reference at 20ft and I don't care that you're at 10ft. Oh, they need to be crossed at 4khz or they'll blow. You're crazy, those domes will compress. Ha, I actually did the compression testing and put my money where my mouth was and found them to be fine for my levels, something I hadn't seen any of the critics do. Don't get me wrong, ever since Erich made CDs within my price range, I've used them. But come on, was this all talk? Or are the hard core blow your ears out people yet to post?
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post #22 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:17pm
I think the room is an often overlooked factor. Note that while most posters here have ref. level capable setups, very few if any have room treated to the extend MK has, which may explain why ref level sounds good in his theater.

Geddes studies on time domain distortion perception had shown that even small amounts of linear and delay related distortion is reliably detectable at high volume levels. In other words reflections from a nearby coffee table or cabinet edge diffractions may not bother you at 90dB but become aggravating at 100dB.


I am in group #2
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post #23 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:27pm
At 10ft I do ~113db continuous with pink-noise C-weighted during music. That's with 9 subs and 2 mains and 24,000watts. With movies its a bit more because it's another 5 speakers activated, but none of my family finds in "intolerably" loud.
That was back in June; my system is now 35,000watts in movie-mode, and 33kW in music-mode.
That's "marketing" peak-power mind you, but I still want more bass...

I discovered that if you give your guests a few beers, all of a sudden they can tolerate a lot more for a lot longer. biggrin.gif

I haven't voted yet, but just be super-clear before I do... THX Reference is like what exactly? pink-noise at 85db-A for highs and 95db-C for subs with peaks into whatever it can muster... Is that what it is?
To be honest I've never really paid attention to THX Reference specifications, I've always just done my own thing.

Edited by BassThatHz - 12/17/12 at 12:35pm
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post #24 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:28pm
My system is reference capable but I feel as if I am terribly sensitive to the higher octaves as well. It actually runs in the family. I run over 10dB hot for music listening on the sub channel, and somewhere just under that for movies. I have every speaker calibrated to 75 other than the subs, using an RS meter. I think it should be noted that often times the "Auto" calibration systems actually get the speakers calibrated closer to 72dB as opposed to 75dB I know it is the case with my setup, and several others I have talked to. I don't know how many times I have run Audyssey, but it has always calibrated to 72dB's and then I bump the speakers up to 75.

I posted that I listen between -5 and -10dB but I still only go that far for movie watching. Regular TV or football watching I will do between -15dB and -10dB but once again, some funky EQing can be present in TV content at times. For music, I like to crank it sometimes but I still rarely get into above -10dB territory. I have ventured into + territory before and it makes me nervous going past +3-5, so I choose to not do it. When I say nervous, I mean for my health, not my system. It seems to be just fine wink.gif
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post #25 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:28pm
Thread Starter 
^ In all honesty, tuxedocivic, it's a good part why I posted the poll and I fully realize that there will be a number yet who will post that reference level is the only way to go...and even HIGHER for some.

Probably even more crucially, when you start to realize where people are actually running their systems, it starts to dawn on you just how "hotly run"- or completely/mostly unused- some of these bass arrays are.

Think about this: so the LFE channel affords for 10 additional dbs of peak output over the mains/surround. Ok, fine.

So then, if you're at -15 on the dial (still plenty loud for most), that means that the LFE should be seeing peaks no more than 100dbs. But there are more and more bass systems that are good for 125-130+ over a considerable range of the low-end. So then, either there are GOBS of output simply not being used (even at reference LFE peaks are 115), or, folks are running their bass 10, 20, even 30dbs hot?! eek.gif

Or: all the time, money, effort, and or space is spent on the 10 second "because I can" auditions?

None of them make a lot of sense to me...and this is coming from a guy who possesses much more than I need to hit reference in my current room. Truth be told, all that I have done in the last twelve months or so was undertaken because I will be moving to an eventual, larger, room where I'm certain I will need the additional output- not because I need the 10+ dbs of headroom or want to listen to 100db output with 120 db bass everyday.

Long story short: I hear you (and I actually DO hear you, lol). I think very, very, very few listen anywhere near reference from more than "x" number of minutes, regardless of how capable their rig is..and if they do, good for them, I don't believe anyone should be telling anyone else how to listen. But, you're exactly right, building a system to meet a "spec" that you will never meet is really, a bit foolish in my estimation. I've always had the feeling that some would chase it (reference spec) regardless of where it lies..."95dbs continuous with 115db peaks and 125db peaks for LFE? perfect!"


To each, their own, but the results of this unscientific poll don't surprise me in the slightest, thus far.

James
Edited by mastermaybe - 12/17/12 at 12:42pm
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post #26 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

At 10ft I do ~113db continuous with pink-noise C-weighted during music. That's with 9 subs and 2 mains and 24,000watts. With movies its a bit more because it's another 5 speakers activated, but none of my family finds in "intolerably" loud.
That was back in June; my system is now 35,000watts in movie-mode, and 32kW in music-mode.
That's "marketing" peak-power mind you, but I still want more bass...
I discovered that if you give your guests a few beers, all of a sudden they can tolerate a lot more for a lot longer. biggrin.gif
I haven't voted yet, but just be super-clear before I do... THX Reference is like what exactly? pink-noise at 85db-A for highs and 95db-C for subs with peaks into whatever it can muster... Is that what it is?
To be honest I've never really paid attention to THX Reference specifications, I've always just done my own thing.

113dbs continuous is not too loud for your guests?

"I discovered that if you give your guests a few beers, all of a sudden they can tolerate a lot more for a lot longer."

Yeah, I think Van Halen actually discovered that.

Guess I need more beer and different guests.

113 decibels. Continuous.

James
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post #27 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I think the room is an often overlooked factor. Note that while most posters here have ref. level capable setups, very few if any have room treated to the extend MK has, which may explain why ref level sounds good in his theater.
Geddes studies on time domain distortion perception had shown that even small amounts of linear and delay related distortion is reliably detectable at high volume levels. In other words reflections from a nearby coffee table or cabinet edge diffractions may not bother you at 90dB but become aggravating at 100dB.
I am in group #2

i have found that when pushing the volume up high, its the bad sounds from reflections that hurt my ears
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post #28 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:52pm
Don't get me wrong, reference is loud but I really feel at this level the whole experience takes on a new level of excitement. Sure, there are movies that are louder than others but you can turn them down to be at reference because most of those are over reference if playing at MV 0 dBs.

BTW I measured THD at my seating position with 105 dB sine waves from 80hz to 10khz(do not try this as it taxes the amp) and I reached 5% THD max at a couple frequencies, I think they were 2k and 8K. My subs were under 2% at 115 dBs. I wonder if it reached 10% THD I would think it was too loud? I am curious what others reach but please do it with sweeps and not constant sine waves. I bet with movie peaks I am under 2% across the board as these sine waves are brutal. I smoked my amp at 15khz and 105 dBs and the THD was still about 50% at 90 dBs at 15khz. I think I know why JBL uses the X-curve now. Some people maybe able to tolerate high THD and sometimes it sounds good at lower frequencies(Cinema F-20 at 10hz and 10% THD) but most of the time I don't like the sound once it reaches about 10-12% THD.

tuxedocivic,
I hear you but I practice what I preach! I had Madaeel over my house one Saturday and we watched WOTW, the whole movie, at reference. In addition, I would measure with an spl meter set to fast, max, and A-weighted at the LP to see or get an idea what your MV at 0 really plays for peaks. Unfortunately for me I have owned some AVR's and processors that were not the same at MV 0. The few AVR's I owned actually played MV 0(reference?) at 110 dBs peaks and it was too loud. My current processor hits 105 dBs only a few times and that is with all speakers going so I would check to see what MV 0 really is. If it is too loud then use -10MV and figure it out.
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post #29 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

I think it should be noted that often times the "Auto" calibration systems actually get the speakers calibrated closer to 72dB as opposed to 75dB I know it is the case with my setup, and several others I have talked to. I don't know how many times I have run Audyssey, but it has always calibrated to 72dB's and then I bump the speakers up to 75.
 

 

This difference is for two reasons:  Accuracy of the SPL meter vs Audyssey mic and the fact that receiver test tones do not run through Audyssey filters so using those for setting levels is not accurate.

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post #30 of 262
12/17/12 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post

i have found that when pushing the volume up high, its the bad sounds from reflections that hurt my ears
exactly.
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