or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Is "reference level" LOUD to YOU?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Is "reference level" LOUD to YOU? - Page 3

Poll Results: Is properly reproduced (read: relatively low distortion, unstrained/unclipped programme) "reference level" playback (concening properly mastered cinema media) :

 
  • 12% (20)
    1. Perfect. This is the way movies should sound.
  • 34% (55)
    2. A bit too loud for me/my guests, I'm usually between -10 and 0 on the volume dial
  • 32% (51)
    3. Too loud, I'm usually between -10 and -15 on the volume dial
  • 17% (28)
    4. Much too loud, I'm usually - 15 or more on the volume dial
  • 3% (5)
    5. Ae you crazy, it's not loud enough, I spend most of my time in "0+ land"
159 Total Votes  
post #61 of 262
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

I'd imagine most of us who do not listen at ref at home do not find IMAX sound too loud.
So the question is why the same movies at the same SPL sound like crap in small rooms. I think FOH put forward a solid case as to why the actual equipment used is only one of the reasons, and perhaps the easiest one to overcome.

My IMAX is WAY TOO LOUD.

More than a few actually complained or left during batman, last time I was there.

James
post #62 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

I voted 1, but I wanted to vote 5. I do not necessarily want it loud for the sake of being loud, but I want to feel the floor move and the clothes on my body shudder when something thrilling happens. I have been to many rock concerts and outdoor performances. I can only say that some do it for me and others do not. Disney World has some extremely nice systems. One being in the Magic Kingdom in the Philharmagic and in the Hollywood Studios in the Lights, Motors, Action!. In these two systems you are immersed in what is going on. One is in a theater that is like a typical movie and the other is outdoors with live action stunts and explosions. Both have severely adequate systems that give you the feeling of being completely involved in what is going on. I have enjoyed these experiences for years and hope to enjoy them for years to come. I started to really appreciate the big sound of such rigs when I first watched the Fountain in EPCOT. It is not the way it used to be 20 something years ago when it first opened. It used to be a big deal, but now not so much. When the music played while the fountain went off, I was smiling from ear to ear and I wanted to know what kind of speakers were responsible for shaking the concrete. It was surely something to see and feel. If you remember that like I do, you know how I want my sound system to perform.
Keep cranking,
Robert

That's is my thinking as well. Most people that come over leave with a WTF look on their faces hahaha. I was getting the furnace cleaned tonight and the worker was dumbfounded. I played WOTW at reference and his face was priceless.
I don't just watch movies, I want to experience them cool.gif
post #63 of 262
I am sorry to hear about the hearing loss but a gun is far, far worse for the ears than 'reference' level listening. Maybe I'm lucky but I've passed 40 with perfect hearing and I've owned one system system or another capable of playing cleanly at reference levels for over 20 years and listened to loud music every single day. Gunshots are momentary but they range from 140db to 170db in intensity and of course the gun is always within 1 meter of your head when you are using it, so the instantaneous damage is happening if you shoot unprotected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

I don't have a decibel meter, but I would bet that THX volume set at 0 (which I think is reference) is loud enough to cause hearing damage. I almost never go above -10 and usually at -14 or so. I had my audiologist query my hearing aids, and they almost never see anything above 88 decibels. - 10 db is very loud in my theater room, especially in movies, where my next door neighbor complained that I was shaking his house.
I believe that lengthy exposure to 95 -100 db will cause permanent hearing damage. I did a lot of damage firing handguns without hearing protection (before people wore hearing protection when I was about 16). At age 18 and after, I always wore hearing protection, but the damage was already done. But the point I want to make is that the damage didn't start affecting my hearing until I was about 30. It progressed from there to wearing one hearing aid in my left ear at 40 and I now wear two aids at 65. Without them the world is very difficult to communicate in.
So too much volume now can really make you suffer many years from now.
Floyd
post #64 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

My IMAX is WAY TOO LOUD.
More than a few actually complained or left during batman, last time I was there.
James

To match this poll results, 90% of those who watched the IMAX movie with you would have to find it too loud. I doubt it was the case.
post #65 of 262
Many folks scorn what they cannot have for themselves. Lamborghinis and Ferraris, private jets, supermodel wives and girlfriends, stereo systems that are flat at reference from single digit Hz on up... but given the chance to enjoy those same things for themselves, they become instant fans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

To match this poll results, 90% of those who watched the IMAX movie with you would have to find it too loud. I doubt it was the case.
post #66 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post

That's is my thinking as well. Most people that come over leave with a WTF look on their faces hahaha. I was getting the furnace cleaned tonight and the worker was dumbfounded. I played WOTW at reference and his face was priceless.
I don't just watch movies, I want to experience them cool.gif

You have it! I have named my HT "The Experience" and that is what most tell me when they leave. I happen to enjoy rock videos- A lot. I can watch over and over ASIA, The Eagles, Rush, Peter Frampton, Peter Gabriel, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Led Zeppelin and the list goes on. Hard to experience the same feel of the concert without concert level playback. I rarely just do clips and such. I tend to put in a movie and watch the whole thing. But, I can put on Pink Floyd - Pulse and I am transported back to the time I saw them play and feel the emotions that that night stirred and it is just magical. I do not smoke or drink or any kind of other vice and this is my outlet. I work in noise all day. I have been wearing ear plugs and muffs pretty much every day for
almost 30 years now. I know what loud is and the noise I listen to every day is really loud, but it is constant and mostly one tone - like a torture really. So, for me to come home and put in Beethoven's "Ode to Joy and let it rip is just the norm. I am a classical music buff at heart and the dynamics are as wide as I have experienced. I have many versions of each piece and some are better than others. Some are just very important because of the director and conductor and some are just very well done. A 100 piece orchestra can get mighty loud and I have been to the Symphony so many times it is hard to count, so I know how it sounds in person. To get that impact in your home requires lots of headroom. I have been in HT's that have nice "all in the box" setups and they get somewhat loud and they always seem too loud to me when trying to play my selected recordings.I usually ask them, after they ask me how it sounds, if the system has a volume control- They never get the hint! That said, I never notice that in my HT. It is loud- very loud, but it "feels" louder than it is I guess is how I want to put it. Hard to really explain, but, if you experience what I am describing, you will know what I am saying.

Keep cranking,

Robert
post #67 of 262
With my JTR's I did not listen at reference level very often. Most of the time around -10 MV, if I wanted to listen loud. With the SEOS-12/TD12M, reference does not seem that loud. I can listen pretty comfortable at reference level. I was surprised at how much cleaner these speakers are than the JTR's.
Reply
Reply
post #68 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

Where's the "not quite" part?
Cinematic mastering affords for 30db LFE dynamics, I'm nearly 100% certain that never occurs on/in any musical recording- perhaps some of the most dynamic classical around- but no dub step or bass head "stuff" that I'm aware of.
Personally, 15, 20, or 30db hot bass sounds like, well, 15, 20 or 30db hot bass. Pretty much unnatural, over-emphasized, and bloated to me, but again, I'm not here to tell others how they should listen.
Put it this way: put on your dub-step at ~90dbs. I can guarantee you- without goosing the bass- you will never see bass transients exceed 110dbs.
Again: if you have 130+db bass at your disposal, you're either: listening to content at a 100+ db constant, running the bass 20+dbs hot, or are leaving a ton of output on the table...oh, I mean you have a lot of headroom.
There's really no way around it.
James

The not quite part essentially bases around the fact that while some of the systems (bass specifically) that you see people going way overboard with, don't ever need 130dB's technically, but they need the capability of the additional firepower and drivers to extend lower and lower. Once EQ'd out, whether you are bass hot or not, it is all really done for extension. My first DIY subs were the F-20's (pair) and they had INSANE output for the dollar, but they conked out at 20hz where they got a tab bit of room gain below that but didn't extend down as far as I wanted. Now with some sealed uber drivers I am able to get down to where I wanted. I am by far not in the 130dB crowd, and I do have some areas to improve on in my system, but once it is all said and done, I am glad I have the headroom I already do in spots, but still see benefit where additional drivers would help the longevity of the system. Folks like Ricci, Not, MK, that have built out some of the biggest systems around can sit back and know that what they have will take them anywhere they want to go and further. What's the price you pay for that? who knows. IMO I will personally not be happy until I can sit on my couch with a new flick that has some pretty dynamic content, and smile knowing I could have a steel door in front of my equipment rack hiding the Christmas tree of lights on all my gear and KNOW that I won't be clipping anything or worrying about frying voice coils. For some it doesn't take as much as others, but even if you listen below reference, be that -2 or -15, having a system capable for even when you catch a wild hair is always nice to have. Some would say this hobby is pricey, and in many cases it is, but at least we aren't all into collecting antique artwork. For two reasons I guess, no one wants to drop a Dali on the floor of their living room when they are experimenting with high power sine waves and flexing their house walls 2 inches, and who really wants to sit and stare at a painting that doesn't play music or move? Haha.
post #69 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

With my JTR's I did not listen at reference level very often. Most of the time around -10 MV, if I wanted to listen loud. With the SEOS-12/TD12M, reference does not seem that loud. I can listen pretty comfortable at reference level. I was surprised at how much cleaner these speakers are than the JTR's.

How does the upper frequency response compare. As mentioned earlier, the rolling off in the upper frequencies can allow a little more output before ear bleeding sets in. smile.gif
post #70 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by robertcharles View Post

You have it! I have named my HT "The Experience" and that is what most tell me when they leave. I happen to enjoy rock videos- A lot. I can watch over and over ASIA, The Eagles, Rush, Peter Frampton, Peter Gabriel, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Led Zeppelin and the list goes on. Hard to experience the same feel of the concert without concert level playback. I rarely just do clips and such. I tend to put in a movie and watch the whole thing. But, I can put on Pink Floyd - Pulse and I am transported back to the time I saw them play and feel the emotions that that night stirred and it is just magical. I do not smoke or drink or any kind of other vice and this is my outlet. I work in noise all day. I have been wearing ear plugs and muffs pretty much every day for
almost 30 years now. I know what loud is and the noise I listen to every day is really loud, but it is constant and mostly one tone - like a torture really. So, for me to come home and put in Beethoven's "Ode to Joy and let it rip is just the norm. I am a classical music buff at heart and the dynamics are as wide as I have experienced. I have many versions of each piece and some are better than others. Some are just very important because of the director and conductor and some are just very well done. A 100 piece orchestra can get mighty loud and I have been to the Symphony so many times it is hard to count, so I know how it sounds in person. To get that impact in your home requires lots of headroom. I have been in HT's that have nice "all in the box" setups and they get somewhat loud and they always seem too loud to me when trying to play my selected recordings.I usually ask them, after they ask me how it sounds, if the system has a volume control- They never get the hint! That said, I never notice that in my HT. It is loud- very loud, but it "feels" louder than it is I guess is how I want to put it. Hard to really explain, but, if you experience what I am describing, you will know what I am saying.
Keep cranking,
Robert

Someone who gets it, lol.

Music relaxes me. Loud music relaxes me more. smile.gif

The other day I was downstairs after a bad day at work. I had DSOTM on SACD cranked to 11. My wife comes in, gives me the look, and walks out. After I come upstairs, she asks me how in the heck can I relax to that? Someone people just don't understand. biggrin.gif

There is just something special about a faithful reproduction of the source.
post #71 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Many folks scorn what they cannot have for themselves. Lamborghinis and Ferraris, private jets, supermodel wives and girlfriends, stereo systems that are flat at reference from single digit Hz on up... but given the chance to enjoy those same things for themselves, they become instant fans.

I can afford a 120db system. I choose not to spend my money doing it. Even so, I only lack some more amp power on my subs. I also find most theatres and the IMAX a little to loud. Not way to loud, but just a bit.
post #72 of 262
My point is how do you know that people have systems capable of clean reference? What is clean reference to you?(general question here). Have you guys measured your THD and responses at reference? You can clearly measure THD and see if there is a correlation between it and the sound quality you can bare. With me that level changes based on frequency.
post #73 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

I can afford a 120db system. I choose not to spend my money doing it. Even so, I only lack some more amp power on my subs. I also find most theatres and the IMAX a little to loud. Not way to loud, but just a bit.

tuxedocivic

pursuing perfection..............to a point.


biggrin.gif
post #74 of 262
I think it depends on the track and the movie, I usually can ease myself into reference as the movie goes on but that first 5mins I will be at about -15 and then up it as the action hits.
post #75 of 262
Oh I know about how loud gun shots are in comparison. I'm sure they had a much greater impact. But any audiologist will tell you that listening to sustained 100 db sound will damage your hearing. And the result is very slow to come and subtle in onset. You might be lucky, but maybe when your 50, who knows.smile.gif

Floyd
post #76 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floydster View Post

Oh I know about how loud gun shots are in comparison. I'm sure they had a much greater impact. But any audiologist will tell you that listening to sustained 100 db sound will damage your hearing. And the result is very slow to come and subtle in onset. You might be lucky, but maybe when your 50, who knows.smile.gif
Floyd

That's just an excuse to turn it up even louder. biggrin.gif
post #77 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by edoggrc51 View Post

I voted #2. 90% of the time I usually have the MV at between -5db's & -10bd's.
Ditto on this and my system is calibrated with a sound level meter. However, I find that some movies & blu-rays are quieter than others. Also a few have dialog that requires you to turn your system up, but the action scenes are almost too much on your ears..
Edited by pgwalsh - 12/17/12 at 9:45pm
post #78 of 262
I still feel there are way too many variables between rooms and equipment to establish a scientific baseline.

I could listen to my buddies Rockets at reference all day long. My other friend runs a Klipsch setup and it really starts to hurt a long ways below reference. As I stated earlier; this doesn't take room treatments into account which play a huge role.
post #79 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

My IMAX is WAY TOO LOUD.
More than a few actually complained or left during batman, last time I was there.
James

IMAX 15/70 or IMAX Digital? I find the IMAX Digital houses to be incredibly distorted, I have been to three of them. All of them are calibrated with the nXos calibrating system. While they all sound very similar, the distortion is painful. It is not a quality sound experience.

JSS
post #80 of 262
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

To match this poll results, 90% of those who watched the IMAX movie with you would have to find it too loud. I doubt it was the case.

No, 80% would have...and I'd bet I'd be close.

Would 90% have stopped adding volume before reaching the level they were at (we were told by Johnny manager it was 80dbs, nominally btw not even "full" reference, supposedly) had they had their own remote? Yes, I believe they would. Countless polls have indicated most movie goers think the theater is much too loud.

James
post #81 of 262
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Many folks scorn what they cannot have for themselves. Lamborghinis and Ferraris, private jets, supermodel wives and girlfriends, stereo systems that are flat at reference from single digit Hz on up... but given the chance to enjoy those same things for themselves, they become instant fans.

And ten fold more simply think it's too loud for an extended amount of time. We've already had more than a few (myself included) indicate that they can reproduce reference-level playback cleanly but still think it's too loud and have been told either that we can't or that we essentially have the wrong taste. I think the vast majority of humans simply find it too loud.

James
post #82 of 262
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Someone who gets it, lol.
Music relaxes me. Loud music relaxes me more. smile.gif
The other day I was downstairs after a bad day at work. I had DSOTM on SACD cranked to 11. My wife comes in, gives me the look, and walks out. After I come upstairs, she asks me how in the heck can I relax to that? Someone people just don't understand. biggrin.gif
There is just something special about a faithful reproduction of the source.

So the people who don't enjoy the same listening levels you do "don't get it"?

I suppose their response could of course mirror your own, precisely.

Mandating one's tastes to others as some frame of "correctness" or "normalcy" is a very __________ thing to do brother, be careful.


James
post #83 of 262
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I still feel there are way too many variables between rooms and equipment to establish a scientific baseline.
I could listen to my buddies Rockets at reference all day long. My other friend runs a Klipsch setup and it really starts to hurt a long ways below reference. As I stated earlier; this doesn't take room treatments into account which play a huge role.

That's fine, as it isn't a scientific poll to begin with. And room treatments are incidental...you or I have no clue WHAT kinds of rooms respondents are/have listened in. Mine was very much well-treated and I still found reference too loud for (most) movies in their entirety.


That's it, MK, we're heading by you for the "blind volume" test.

We'll even bring the three that will likely push to "10+ land" lol. smile.gif

James
post #84 of 262
Oh man, I was not being argumentative, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek. I agree with you 100% about the vast majority of people's taste when it somes to SPL, I am more like a 1%er when it comes to volume levels and I've got two decades of bad relations with my next door neighbors to prove it. I also happen to find all movie theaters to be intolerable when in comes to the mix of SQ and volume. My eardrums sometimes spasm in movie theaters and of course I never go anymore... I think Avatar's premier at an IMAX theater was the last time I sat through a whole movie. That never, ever happens to me at home with my system, even when it is pumping so hard that it feels like my sofa is on a roller coaster and the highs sound like pure crystal.

I suppose I should have voted 5 instead of 1... but 1 is the most accurate description of what I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

And ten fold more simply think it's too loud for an extended amount of time. We've already had more than a few (myself included) indicate that they can reproduce reference-level playback cleanly but still think it's too loud and have been told either that we can't or that we essentially have the wrong taste. I think the vast majority of humans simply find it too loud.
James
post #85 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

No, 80% would have...and I'd bet I'd be close.
Would 90% have stopped adding volume before reaching the level they were at (we were told by Johnny manager it was 80dbs, nominally btw not even "full" reference, supposedly) had they had their own remote? Yes, I believe they would. Countless polls have indicated most movie goers think the theater is much too loud.
James

I am skeptical about the 80% estimate. If that was the case I'd expect the industry to comply. After all, the business model is to entertain, not to torture.

I bet most people do not think about the sound in movie theaters at all. they just swallow it whole - the story, the sound, the visuals - the experience.

Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that perception of loudness at ref. level playback in typical small rooms and large movie theaters is different. This is a well know fact, i do not think it is debatable, really. That's why, in part, Dolby came up with the dialnorm offsets.
post #86 of 262
I wonder what else people would do in a movie theater if they had a remote control. Perhaps pause the movie to go get some popcorn and take a leak? Perhaps they would adopt that nifty habit of adjusting the volume throughout the movie? Turn up the surround sound to suit their taste for whatever seat they chose?

As for the 'risk' involved in watching movies at 85 db (average) volume on a dialy basis? Even if it was my job, I'd be in the clear. Same goes for 90db.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

No, 80% would have...and I'd bet I'd be close.
Would 90% have stopped adding volume before reaching the level they were at (we were told by Johnny manager it was 80dbs, nominally btw not even "full" reference, supposedly) had they had their own remote? Yes, I believe they would. Countless polls have indicated most movie goers think the theater is much too loud.
James
post #87 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

tuxedocivic
pursuing perfection..............to a point.
biggrin.gif

Haha, ya, I suppose that's true biggrin.gif
post #88 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

That's fine, as it isn't a scientific poll to begin with. And room treatments are incidental...you or I have no clue WHAT kinds of rooms respondents are/have listened in. Mine was very much well-treated and I still found reference too loud for (most) movies in their entirety.
That's it, MK, we're heading by you for the "blind volume" test.
We'll even bring the three that will likely push to "10+ land" lol. smile.gif
James

I don't know if I could stand 10+ but I never reach levels that cause ringing in the ears. I guess it could be my room as I have had members on different occasions tell me to turn it up as well. Madaeel thought WOTW was great at reference but LOTR can get a little loud at MV 0 on certain parts but still tolerable. TDNR has a few scenes where it gets unbearable but I believe it has to do with the recording more than volume. I can tell when the mic is too close to an actor and he screams into the mic as his voice sounds like he clipped the mic or something.
post #89 of 262
"And another 50% like it quieter, still."

that's fine. i'm not sure that i see your point though. why should what the bottom 50% like somehow figure into what the upper 40% spend their money on?
post #90 of 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermaybe View Post

So the people who don't enjoy the same listening levels you do "don't get it"?

Good grief. Some of you are so argumentative. That was a freaking joke hence the lol at the end. What, your wife wears the pants at home and the only chance you get to show off your ego is online? Some of you really need to step away from the keyboard for a while.
Quote:
Mandating one's tastes to others as some frame of "correctness" or "normalcy" is a very __________ thing to do brother, be careful.
James

I'd be careful on who you choose to council. I'm not your brother, and don't need the "____________" lecture. So take your own advice. wink.gif
Edited by bass addict - 12/18/12 at 9:26am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Is "reference level" LOUD to YOU?