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First Time Long Time - $4000 Budget Wife Approved - Page 2

post #31 of 134
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the feedback Newbie01, I appreciate it. I've penciled in the accessories you referenced. I was thinking the same thing about the bookshelves vs the bp surrounds. My only reservations about the Onkyo 818 are some unpleasant reviews about a 24fps bug referenced in the official thread, seems to make people unhappy. I don't understand it tbh http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412714/onkyo-tx-nr818-official-owners-thread-discussion/2900_100
I like the idea of having XT-32, but from what I gather MCACC is a fine alternative.
Chose the EMPTek's after reading a comparison thread with some other high performing speakers. SVS, Gallo, Phils, EMP
price point is outstanding.
post #32 of 134
Onkyo 818 24p bug is fixed. I just got mine in two days ago and patched it. Works great. MCACC has some fans...but too much of your budget is into a receiver honestly... 25% is allot. Are there features you really really need to go that high?

Take a look at the Denon 2113CI...it may work for you better...does not have the XT-32 but it has XT and can be had for $450. If you pick it up at Amazon...you can always return it. XT-32 makes a difference sometimes...but it depends on your room and how problematic your room is. Of course, the 818 does not have sub eq so can't eq two subs seperately...but you are not getting two now and can always go manual with radio shack spl meter.

I am just not a fan of MCACC but dont let me prejudices sway you too much... there are plenty of people who are fans.

Even if I was a fan...I would say your buying an aweful lot of reciever for your budget and to really evaluate what features your trying to get.

Nothing wrong at all with the EMP...which is why I didn't advise you in any way not to go with them. In fact, for HT / Games in your budget...it is an outstanding choice.

Bang for your buck is outstanding with EMP and same with HSU.
post #33 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGMikeT View Post

I like the idea of having XT-32, but from what I gather MCACC is a fine alternative.

Sure. Maybe for speakers it's a good alternative, but not for subs. MCACC doesn't apply EQ filters to the subwoofers, and subwoofers often need that help in a room as much or more than the speakers. This is why Denon, Onkyo, and Marantz are very popular. Yamaha YPAO multipoint (not regular YPAO) EQs the subs, but that's only available on the higher model Yamaha receivers.
post #34 of 134
Your room is half the size of mine... I run a 7.2 setup based using Def Tech 8080s at the front, a Denon 4311ci (x/audyssey xt32) and SVS subs. My suggestion would be to:

* go for the Def Tech 8060s
* drop the emotiva- the Def Techs are not hard to drive, and they include amps for the low end
* get a Denon or Onkyo receiver with at least XT or, if possible, XT32
* get a decent sub– the SVS PB12-NSD is an excellent value

Personally I don't fine the rear speakers add that much overall on most material, so I'd be happy with a 5.1 or 5.2 setup.
post #35 of 134
Have a look at the new PSA (Power Sound Audio) subs. The owner answers questions in the sub section. He was at SVS. The website is: www.powersoundaudio.com.
Enjoy and welcome to the world of "How to drain your wallet in search of the perfect sound?"
post #36 of 134
The GoldenEar speakers were positively reviewed in Home Theater magazine. Add a center channel, and the surrounds *could* be a later purchase. You want the fronts to match.
Hsu subs are a good value. Outlaw also makes good value subs.
For electronics, Emotiva has a very good 5 channel amp for $900, and a pre/pro for $600. Or you could get the 3 channel amp for $600. High value for dollar. $1500 for electronics and $100 for a BD/DVD player and you're set. Surrounds don't really need a ton of juice.
I would recommend buying reasonable stuff up front, and waiting to purchase more stuff. Your room will determine your sub size.

Have fun!

Griller
post #37 of 134
On a 4k budget..no need to start buying anything other than a receiver...

Lots and lots of speaker choices out there..but EMP is a good choice.

HSU is probably king of value...its a good sub. Your already over budget. Stick with the HSU. SVS, PSA and others make a good product..for the price HSU is in there with them or better...so stick with your original gut and go with HSU...no one will say you did something "wrong".

Don't get over whelmed. You are on the right track. Scale back your receiver a little...go with the bookshelf and try the phantom center...

You will be happy.
post #38 of 134
I would recommend going with the Onk 818, if for no other reason to get XT-32. It is superior even if only using one sub. More filters concentrating on low freq. modal issues means less flab/ringing. A room doesn't exist without these problems. I came from PIo and Advanced MCACC so I know of what I speak. wink.gif

HSU is good, so is PSA. Might want to look at PSA more closely; Tom V. is highly respected around here.

Re: EMP Tek, you might want to poke around in the EMP owner's thread here on AVS before leaping. Yeah, they're cheap at that price but a quick look shows some flaws I couldn't live with. Someone posted graphs showing pretty wild FR variances between their L&R's. This is why David F. of Ascend makes a big deal about hand-matching L&R's within 1db (including printouts) before pairs leave the factory. There's nothing you can do about that once you own them. It's also a bit alarming to see references to nasty cabinet resonances, to the point guys are adding polyfil on their own. Those EMP's are also a bit low in sensitivity for my taste, especially considering they are rated at a nominal 6 ohm resistive load. No doubt, they'll dip a good bit lower in use which could mean either distortion or amp shutdown.

Perhaps take a second look at Ascend or Salk. Both are excellent and as someone else pointed out, you could pop for the RAAL tweeter with either manufacturer.

Chris
post #39 of 134
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882117412

Check out with V.me (like paypal) for a total of $499.

Class D3 amps that will drive a 4 ohm load without breaking a sweat and don't lose much power with all channels driven.

I haven't had an Onkyo since the 602. I didn't have any problems with it. From what little I've read about the recent models, there might be issues with
genearating excessive heat, and HDMI board failures. I haven't been paying close enough attention to say that this is the case or not, but I've seen it
more than a few times. My Pio. doesn't even get warm.

i went to this receiver from an Emotiva UMC-1 (trouble free, other tnan an occasional center channel drop-out) and Emotiva LPA-1 7-channel amp. Only because the lack of 3D support and network features. I would have went with the UMC-200 but I need more than 4 HDMI ports. I'm not missing the seperates at all. I will set it up in another room though, strictly for music.

Just do your research and find out what features and qualities are most important to you.

Good luck and have fun.
post #40 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudda View Post

I would recommend going with the Onk 818, if for no other reason to get XT-32. It is superior even if only using one sub. More filters concentrating on low freq. modal issues means less flab/ringing. A room doesn't exist without these problems. I came from PIo and Advanced MCACC so I know of what I speak. wink.gif

HSU is good, so is PSA. Might want to look at PSA more closely; Tom V. is highly respected around here.

Re: EMP Tek, you might want to poke around in the EMP owner's thread here on AVS before leaping. Yeah, they're cheap at that price but a quick look shows some flaws I couldn't live with. Someone posted graphs showing pretty wild FR variances between their L&R's. This is why David F. of Ascend makes a big deal about hand-matching L&R's within 1db (including printouts) before pairs leave the factory. There's nothing you can do about that once you own them. It's also a bit alarming to see references to nasty cabinet resonances, to the point guys are adding polyfil on their own. Those EMP's are also a bit low in sensitivity for my taste, especially considering they are rated at a nominal 6 ohm resistive load. No doubt, they'll dip a good bit lower in use which could mean either distortion or amp shutdown.

Perhaps take a second look at Ascend or Salk. Both are excellent and as someone else pointed out, you could pop for the RAAL tweeter with either manufacturer.

Chris

I think your being unfair to the EMP Tek... There may be a few one offs with them where they are not perfect but great bang for buck. He can test them at home as well. (SVS vs. Phil 2's is a good thread to see as well).

RAAL is way over kill for HT / Gaming and outside his budget. There are many who think Salk center is "boxy" and weak as well... Just like anything..you get 100 peeps in a room...you get 3 speakers 100, 1000 and 10000 and you will get a good number of them that like the 100 dollar speakers.

There is no right or wrong...just what sounds good...and for HT / Gaming I think the EMP tek will work great. Just to set the record straight...I own Ascend 170 SE and soon to have Phil 2's and L/R.
post #41 of 134
If you are handy with woodworking, I'd take a peek at the diy section. The performance to dollar ratio is much higher then commercial offerings.

SEOS fusion 12 tempest for mains. fusion 8 alchemy for surrounds @ http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion-series-kits.html

If you have a space, I'd look at building a pair of large horn subs like the lilmike likwrecker/f20/microwrecker
If you don't have the space, get a couple of the dayton 18s or maybe the ultimax 15 from parts express and a 18inch flatpack from diy soundgroup and a PA amp to run them like the behringer ep4000
post #42 of 134
Yea, my guess is that the EMP tek speakers have the same number of defects as any other speaker maker in that price range. They do actively sell b stock with cosmetic flaws, but the are usually bit obvious! And the will replace anything....
post #43 of 134
Thread Starter 
I appreciate all of the feedback!
My goals for this venture are to purchase Front LCR - Side and Rear Surround Bookshelves - One Subwoofer - 7.2 Channel AVR with Pre Outs, 3d, for +-$4500
Within the next year, I will hopefully have the capital and WAF to upgrade to a 3 or 5 channel amp to power the fronts and add height speakers, as well as a second subwoofer.
My goal this time next year will be to have a rock solid 9.2 and a well treated room.

Speakers - I am fairly confident I'll be purchasing the EMPTek speakers for fronts and surrounds. Thank you all for your takes on other brands, but for the price point and after reading through the owners thread, I feel good about giving them a shot.

AVR - As stated above, 7.2 or > with pre outs and audyssey multeq xt or > for +- 1000
Can someone convince me that they would purchase a refurbished denon from A4L to save $500? It seems like a great deal, but I'm pretty hesitant to buy refurbished electronics on such a big scale.
Denon AVR-4311 $1100
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR4311CI/DENON-AVR-4311CI-9.2-Channel-Network-Home-Theater-Receiver/1.html

Onkyo TX-NR818 +- $1000
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR818-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B007JOO4XE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1362985716&sr=8-1&keywords=onkyo+tx-nr818




Subwoofer - I really am clueless here as I've never owned a subwoofer. I've read great things about all the ID brands (Hsu, Rythmik, Epik, SVS, PSA), but have no idea what to pick. I want something that is clean, very powerful and +-1000. I would love some help in this category, especially in understanding amplifiers, pros and cons of ported vs sealed in my room? power concerns?. What the difference in sound is? Lost....

Ported
Hsu VTF-15H
http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html
1400 W Short Term, 350 W Continuous

PSA XV15
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xv15
500W RMS (continuous), 1000W Peak (dynamic)

SVS PB12+
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb12-plus
STA-800D Sledge with 800 watts RMS continuous power (2300 watts peak dynamic power)

Sealed
Hsu ULS-15
http://hsuresearch.com/products/uls-15.html
1000W Short Term

PSA XS30
http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xs30
Amplifier Power: 725W RMS (continuous), 1450W Peak (dynamic)

SVS SB13 Ultra
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/sb13-ultra#.UT2AxVc2HTc
STA-1000D Sledge with 1000 watts RMS continuous power (3600 watts peak dynamic power)

More knowledge please!
Thank you again for you time
post #44 of 134
This could turn into another long winded subwoofer debate.....lol
post #45 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

This could turn into another long winded subwoofer debate.....lol

Agreed.

Hope you got a few weeks, TC. biggrin.gif

But seriously TC, go over to the sub forum. I'm sure you will find plenty of spirited debates on each of those subs.

http://www.avsforum.com/f/113/subwoofers-bass-and-transducers
Edited by Prime316 - 3/11/13 at 1:30am
post #46 of 134
My first big HT system was the DefTech BP7000SC + CLR3000 + BP7001SC + Trinity. Sounded great to me.

I've owned and heard a lot of speakers since then, including Linkwitz, KEF, TAD, Focal, Dynaudio, B&W, Philharmonic (like Salk), and ATC.

I think the EMP will sound very good, but they are considered "entry level" system, not $4,000+ system IMO.

If I had a $4K budget, I would get a 5.1 HIGH-END system, not 7.1 system. I would get the Revel F12/C12/M12 from Audiolab. I bet they could give you a 20% discount for the whole set, so about $2200 for 5.0 set.

http://www.audiolab.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=Revel&Search.x=0&Search.y=0

I bought my Revel Salon2 from them. biggrin.gif

I would call Electronics Expo and offer $600 for the Denon AVR-3312 brand new. I would never buy REFURBISHED AVR; they are very complex electronics and you might not be as lucky as the next guy.

Then get the Emotiva XPA-3 ($600) for the front 3 speakers only since 2 surrounds would never require more than 120WPC. biggrin.gif

I would get an SVS PB12-PLUS for $1400.

http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/pb12-plus#.UT3c3Yy9KSM

Here is the spec on the Revel F12: Frequency Response In-room: ±1.0dB from 58Hz to 18kHz; Low-frequency extension: –10dB @ 28Hz Bandwidth: –6dB @ 40Hz and 45kHz; Sensitivity 90.5dB/2.83V/m. Very nice and very accurate on-axis speakers with very smooth off-axis response. So you great sound, great measurements, high-end very respected brand.

You could hold off on the Emotiva amp if over budget. The F12 has a sensitivity of 90.5dB, so they are efficient enough for most rooms and good volume, just don't bring down the house. eek.gif Besides, the powered Subwoofer will handle all the bass. Just set your speakers to Small & Crossover to 80Hz (that's how I set my Salon2).
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 3/11/13 at 6:51am
post #47 of 134
any one of those subs on the list will do just fine to be honest. You could also look at the chase HT offerings- I think a pair of VS18.1 with amp comes in under 2 grand.
post #48 of 134
I am very VERY happy with my emptek setup. I am powering the front stage off of an old acurus amp rated at 200x3 @ 8 ohm.
post #49 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGMikeT View Post

... and add height speakers

Just to make sure you are aware, adding height speakers is not a simple process.

You would have to upgrade the AVR from 7.x to 9.x, but it can't be just any 9.x AVR. Many (if not most) 9.x AVRs out there will play 9 channels, but not in the same zone. I don't think there are any AVRs less than about $1600 (most are $2000 plus) that will play 9 channels in the main zone.
post #50 of 134
I think 9.1 & 7.1 is pure gimmick for most family rooms. Much larger rooms may benefit more. I would go for quality over quantity.
post #51 of 134
^^ When I did my latest remodel on a whim I put in a pair of rear ceiling speakers (Polk 50-RT) and am very glad I did - but then at the time it was a no-brainer. There isn't much content to take advantage of them but what there is really enhances the experience. I couldn't justify full 9.1 system, with 7.5' basement ceilings I thought it was a bit of overkill. I do agree, go for quality!

It's too bad your audition options are few, with your budget giving Totem Acoustics a listen would be a good idea, although I'm not sure how well they would support the 40% gaming requirement. Fantastic speakers for HT and music.
post #52 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I think 9.1 & 7.1 is pure gimmick for most family rooms. Much larger rooms may benefit more. I would go for quality over quantity.
I have not experienced 9.1, but I can assure you that 7.1 is not a gimmick....it does make a difference if you can accommodate it properly.

I went from 7.1 to 5.1 for purely aesthetic reasons.
post #53 of 134
Personally for the subs you've picked I would take the VTF-15H or the VX15 over the more expensive PB12+. I don't think for the money it has any clear advantage over either of the cheaper options. In the sealed subs again I would take the XS30 over the SB13Ultra, or even a XS15 over the ULS-15. Just curious as to why you haven't taken a look at the FV15HP if you have the budget for the PB12+?
post #54 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

I think 9.1 & 7.1 is pure gimmick for most family rooms. Much larger rooms may benefit more. I would go for quality over quantity.

What have you based this on?
post #55 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

What have you based this on?

Listening to some 9.2 systems and seeing they don't really do anything better than a great 5.2 system.

I used to have a 7.2 system as well. Watched some DTS-HD MA 7.1 BDs. Switched back and forth from 7.2 to 5.2 and I didn't even notice much.
post #56 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Listening to some 9.2 systems and seeing they don't really do anything better than a great 5.2 system.

I used to have a 7.2 system as well. Watched some DTS-HD MA 7.1 BDs. Switched back and forth from 7.2 to 5.2 and I didn't even notice much.

I have enjoyed every 7.1 system that was properly set up compared to 5.1 (I believe they were following the Dolby guidelines). If you can fit in in the room and set it up properly I'd go for 7.1.
post #57 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by cschang View Post

I have not experienced 9.1, but I can assure you that 7.1 is not a gimmick....it does make a difference if you can accommodate it properly.

I went from 7.1 to 5.1 for purely aesthetic reasons.

And I'm sure when they come out with a 11.2, 13.2, and 15.2 system, someone else will assure me it's not a gimmick either. The MAJORITY of the movie sound comes from 1) the Center channel follow by the Front Left, Right, and LFE. The surrounds usually gets ambient sounds and occasional panning from front to back or back to front. But somehow having 4 surround speakers for usually ambience is a great improvement. That's fine.

But for those who can't tell any improvements after they have heard it themselves, they are just as sure as you are and certainly no less.

The one thing I'm 100% sure about is that speaker & sub manufacturers do love 9.2, 11.4, and the-more-the-merrier configurations because they sure as heck make a lot more money than 5.2.
Edited by AcuDefTechGuy - 3/11/13 at 11:44am
post #58 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

I have enjoyed every 7.1 system that was properly set up compared to 5.1 (I believe they were following the Dolby guidelines). If you can fit in in the room and set it up properly I'd go for 7.1.

And I'm sure someone will enjoy his Salon2 in 2.0 setup over some low-end 23.6 system too.

My point is, QUALITY OVER QUANTITY. A high-end 5.1 is better than a low-end 9.2.

The MOST important components are the front 3 speakers & subwoofers, not a bunch of surround speakers that will eat away the budget.
post #59 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

And I'm sure someone will enjoy his Salon2 in 2.0 setup over some low-end 23.6 system too.

My point is, QUALITY OVER QUANTITY. A high-end 5.1 is better than a low-end 9.2.

The MOST important components are the front 3 speakers & subwoofers, not a bunch of surround speakers that will eat away the budget.

The way you try to make your point makes it come across like you're trying to tell the OP 7.1 is a gimmick, and while you may feel that way I'm pretty sure a LOT of other people don't feel the same. If the OP's room was 10'x12' I would agree that there's absolutly no point in 7.1 but with his room being 13'x25' he would easly be able to hear a difference between 5.1 and 7.1 regardless of the quality of the speakers he's using. Assuming its the same speakers for both 5.1 and 7.1 setups with just an extra pair of surrounds

It is a little funny that you try to tell him to go with quality over quantity but then go on to tell him to get the most expensive sub. I'm sure there's more then a few people that don't think that sub is worth the price difference over the other subs on his list. I have yet to read anything that says the PB12+ will out perform the XV15 and the published measurements on both subs say pretty much the same thing.
Edited by jbrown15 - 3/11/13 at 1:16pm
post #60 of 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrown15 View Post

The way you try to make your point makes it come across like you're trying to tell the OP 7.1 is a gimmick, and while you may feel that way I'm pretty sure a LOT of other people don't feel the same. If the OP's room was 10'x12' I would agree that there's absolutly no point in 7.1 but with his room being 13'x25' he would easly be able to hear a difference between 5.1 and 7.1 regardless of the quality of the speakers he's using. Assuming its the same speakers for both 5.1 and 7.1 setups with just an extra pair of surrounds

It is a little funny that you try to tell him to go with quality over quantity but then go on to tell him to get the most expensive sub. I'm sure there's more then a few people that don't think that sub is worth the price difference over the other subs on his list. I have yet to read anything that says the PB12+ will out perform the XV15 and the published measurements on both subs say pretty much the same thing.

Well, I have to agree with you on the sub. They are probably comparable.

But we are all doing the same thing - voicing our different opinions. We agree to disagree based on our personal experiences.

Yes, with a budget of $4K, I think the OP should focus on 5.1 or 5.2 over 7.1 or 9.1.

Instead of getting "low-end" EMP brand (which still sounds good), I think the OP should focus on getting "high-end" Revel brand.

I think a $4K high-end 5.1 is better than a $4K low-end 7.1. Of course, a high-end 7.1 is better than a high-end 5.1 of the same speakers. For example, F12/C12/M12/M12 is better than F12/C12/M12.

But based my experience, 7.1 & 9.1 has nothing over high quality 5.1 because the extra surrounds are often times nothing more than MATRIX sounds processed/ derived from 5.1, even when they claim "DISCRETE 7.1".

So the OP gets 2 opposing opinions.
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