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Tekton Pendragon - Page 50

post #1471 of 1749
I was noting in a recent GTG that the Pendragon was being compared to the JTR Noesis 212 (two loudspeakers that will play loud and that are great for both 2ch and HT)...with the Noesis having the advantage with respect to absolute volume and power level capability. It got me to wondering about the JTR warranty. Here is the link and as you will see, they also don't cover burnt voice coils....or shipping....unless they determine after the speaker is returned that it is their issue in which case they will replace the part but not cover the shipping.....

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/jtr-speakers-inc-policies-5775048?highlight=warranty

This caused me to look at the warranties of lots of other loudspeakers and suffice it to say that the language is always in favor of the company which in the end gives them the flexibility to replace a bad component, even if it is not their fault and write it off to customer service....but as we know, there can be an issue with doing this and setting a precedent.

Has anyone considered asking Tekton what is the max SPL for a pair of Pendragons measured x feet back from the loudspeakers that would be considered safe for the loudspeakers?
post #1472 of 1749
Thread Starter 
The mail was delivered today and I only received the speaker pegs so I probably won't be doing much. I'd like to drill out the plastic anchors on the Pens today and drill holes on the grills but company's coming over today. The pegs from Madisound look better and since they're nylon they shouldn't break. They have a good fit also. Tomorrow I should get the speaker cloth and once I have a finished grill made I'll take more pics.

Could someone explain how to post pictures instead of links to pictures?

Ken
post #1473 of 1749
If any of you fellow Pendragon owners (that may still be on good terms with Eric) please ask him what brand and model grill pegs he used on the Pendragons. This info would be a great help to anyone building grills and I would like to know as my pegs are not lined up right and binding so at some point I will need to replace them. I would think Madisound or Parts Express may have them but finding the exact match for the already installed female peg hole may be a challenge.
post #1474 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by RN2013 View Post

I was noting in a recent GTG that the Pendragon was being compared to the JTR Noesis 212 (two loudspeakers that will play loud and that are great for both 2ch and HT)...with the Noesis having the advantage with respect to absolute volume and power level capability. It got me to wondering about the JTR warranty. Here is the link and as you will see, they also don't cover burnt voice coils....or shipping....unless they determine after the speaker is returned that it is their issue in which case they will replace the part but not cover the shipping.....

http://jtrspeakers.websitetoolbox.com/post/jtr-speakers-inc-policies-5775048?highlight=warranty

This caused me to look at the warranties of lots of other loudspeakers and suffice it to say that the language is always in favor of the company which in the end gives them the flexibility to replace a bad component, even if it is not their fault and write it off to customer service....but as we know, there can be an issue with doing this and setting a precedent.

Has anyone considered asking Tekton what is the max SPL for a pair of Pendragons measured x feet back from the loudspeakers that would be considered safe for the loudspeakers?

Eric told me that the pens can handle some serious loud above reference levels but not to do it continuously as the super tweeter is not a compression driver/ horn and they can heat up driven continuously.

This is pretty standard of any super tweeter as the woven structure can heat up, become brittle, and seize. Same with any super tweeter or even ribbon tweeters. Remember the Martin Logan problems? 1000 watts isn't the answer. Mine are run 125W rms and they do fine.
post #1475 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundman5000 View Post

If any of you fellow Pendragon owners (that may still be on good terms with Eric) please ask him what brand and model grill pegs he used on the Pendragons. This info would be a great help to anyone building grills and I would like to know as my pegs are not lined up right and binding so at some point I will need to replace them. I would think Madisound or Parts Express may have them but finding the exact match for the already installed female peg hole may be a challenge.
post #1476 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

Mine are run 125W rms and they do fine.
@98db sensitivity, that's a bit over 118 RMS @1m?

You are running a continual "louder than sandblasting or a Loud Rock Concert", and not terribly shy of a Jackhammer at 4' RMS?!?

That seems unlikely.
post #1477 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

@98db sensitivity, that's a bit over 118 RMS @1m?

You are running a continual "louder than sandblasting or a Loud Rock Concert", and not terribly shy of a Jackhammer at 4' RMS?!?

That seems unlikely.


That 98 db rating is way off, probably more like 93 db's.
post #1478 of 1749
Thread Starter 
I pulled the grill sockets out of the Pens. They weren't glued in. I pulled them out with a small pair of needle nose pliers. The sockets are made out of hard plastic. They are 7/16" deep vs. the Madisound 21/32" deep. That's approx. a 7/32"difference. They Madisounds are made out of nylon and comparing the 2 I'd rather go with the Madisounds. The Madisounds say to use a 3/8" drill for the holes for both the socket and the pegs. I can almost get the 3/8" drill to fit in the Pens. There's only about a 1/16" difference. I'll be drilling tomorrow.

Soundman: The Madisounds have a 6mm peg. I read that the Pens use a 5mm if that helps any.

Ken
post #1479 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

That 98 db rating is way off, probably more like 93 db's.
So at 113db lower than a sandblaster or loud rock concert by a "barely perceptible" amount?

And that was RMS? So assuming THX's dynamic range, that would put peaks around 133db?
post #1480 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

@98db sensitivity, that's a bit over 118 RMS @1m?

You are running a continual "louder than sandblasting or a Loud Rock Concert", and not terribly shy of a Jackhammer at 4' RMS?!?

That seems unlikely.

Let me draw a parable. It's like my ninja. The power is still all in your right hand. So it's not like a jackhammer. It's at reference which is 68.5-69.5 on my receiver and that loads my room perfectly. Audessy has my mains set at -1. My 4 18" Dayton HOs will rattle my house too much if I turn it beyond that and the cops get called because the house across the alley calls them whenever they hear my system. Reminds me... It's 11pm, time to go fire up my truck wink.gif
Edited by Toymachyne - 11/12/13 at 9:03pm
post #1481 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

That XPR 2 is a load of power. I think it is even beefier than the mfr lists from the reviews. I'm running my pens with my marantz 7007 and they get plenty of juice.

Could it be that the tweeters can't handle the load I'm wondering?

I'm running the XPR-5 and have had no issues so far (+/- 1 year).
post #1482 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kensmith48 View Post

I pulled the grill sockets out of the Pens. They weren't glued in. I pulled them out with a small pair of needle nose pliers. The sockets are made out of hard plastic. They are 7/16" deep vs. the Madisound 21/32" deep. That's approx. a 7/32"difference. They Madisounds are made out of nylon and comparing the 2 I'd rather go with the Madisounds. The Madisounds say to use a 3/8" drill for the holes for both the socket and the pegs. I can almost get the 3/8" drill to fit in the Pens. There's only about a 1/16" difference. I'll be drilling tomorrow.

Soundman: The Madisounds have a 6mm peg. I read that the Pens use a 5mm if that helps any.

Ken

Use ~2 layers of painter's tape over the hole for the grill peg before you drill to help reduce the chance of breaking out paint around the hole. Fortunately the flange on the grill pegs cover quite a bit. If the size of the holes are very close it shouldn't be an issue, but if someone was worried about breakout around the hole, you could take a scrap piece of wood and first drill the bit through the scrap. You can then put the drill through the scrap, get it lined up/started in the hole, and then drill with the scrap pressed firmly or clamped to the face. This is the same idea as using scrap wood behind something your drilling through to keep the back side of the hole clean.
post #1483 of 1749
Thread Starter 
Thanks Mark, I already drilled the speakers. That was the easy part since the drill bit was close. The hard part is matching up the
pegs and where they should go on the frame to match up with the speaker holes. Since the frame is smaller than it should be I had to set a few pegs outside the frame a fraction of an inch. I've got that finished though and now I have to trim some of the wood where it contacts the speakers. It's about a 2" area next to each speaker. A block plane didn't work very good. I don't have a router or sharp wood chisels. I think I'll get some course sandpaper for an electric sander and take it down that way. I still didn't receive the speaker cloth, maybe tomorrow.

Ken
post #1484 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by nb67 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

That XPR 2 is a load of power. I think it is even beefier than the mfr lists from the reviews. I'm running my pens with my marantz 7007 and they get plenty of juice.

Could it be that the tweeters can't handle the load I'm wondering?

I'm running the XPR-5 and have had no issues so far (+/- 1 year).

I have always used my very scientific rule... No matter if using a small or big amp, turn the knob over 1 o'clock and you may fry something. Following that simple rule has always kept all my tweeters safe and happy. biggrin.gif
post #1485 of 1749
Knock on wood, I've had my Pendragons for about five months and play them in the 110 db range at 1 meter for an hour or more and haven't had any issues thus far. I sent Eric an email in regards to someone having multiple blown tweeters and described my listening levels and asked if I may also experience the same and he wrote back and said I shouldn't have any problems . I have an Emotiva XPA-5 that delivers around 250+ watts in two channel and after an hour or so playing at +100 db the amp is at room temp. so I can't imagine it is using more then maybe 50 watts.
post #1486 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

1000 watts isn't the answer. Mine are run 125W rms and they do fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

It's at reference which is 68.5-69.5 on my receiver and that loads my room perfectly. Audessy has my mains set at -1.
If you are running at reference (85db) at 14ft or less, with a 93db speaker, then you are, in fact, using 0.6w RMS. You would use 60w peak (115db).

Nowhere near 125w RMS.
post #1487 of 1749
How can Eric state this is a case of user abuse and decline warranty coverage without examing the part or a photograph of the crossover to determine if the latter is the culprit? It's a bit peculiar that the middle tweeter blew. Perhaps he has great psychic abilities.
post #1488 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post


If you are running at reference (85db) at 14ft or less, with a 93db speaker, then you are, in fact, using 0.6w RMS. You would use 60w peak (115db).

Nowhere near 125w RMS.

Right. Reference levels are easily attained at very few watts or strain on my system. Not sure why some are trying to place so many watts on tap for these speakers.
post #1489 of 1749
Thread Starter 
Thought I'd post an update on the speaker grille build:
The speaker cloth arrived today and I finished the center speaker. The right and left grilles are almost identical to the center (only about a 1/2" difference on the length). I'll try and post a few pictures tomorrow. Too many other things going on today.

I still haven't rec'd a reply from Eric in regards to getting some nameplates for the grills.

Ken
Edited by Kensmith48 - 11/14/13 at 12:09pm
post #1490 of 1749
I've always used this calculator to see how many watts I need.

Capture_zpsfdbff3aa.png



http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html


This says 125 watts from one speaker would get you 107 db's at the listening area if the speaker is in a corner, 104 db's if the speaker is against a wall but not in a corner.



What this calculator does not take into account the crossover used. I think the calculator is assuming the speaker is full range which obviously takes a lot more watts than a speaker that is crossed over at 80hz.

Does anyone know of a calculator like this one that does take the crossover into account?
post #1491 of 1749
At any rate, 104 or 107 db's at the LP from one speaker is VERY LOUD!!! smile.gif

Which is why I struggle with the fact that part of me wants a separate amp for my speakers since there is no way I'm using all the power from my avr as it is.
post #1492 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

Right. Reference levels are easily attained at very few watts or strain on my system. Not sure why some are trying to place so many watts on tap for these speakers.
I'd imagine because it's the amp he has. Also, depending on the ohm curve, there can be issues with voltage rails which can adversely affect sound... though I run most of my stuff off AVR's.

There's no down-side to using an amp more powerful and capable than is needed (other than cost of said amp).
post #1493 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

I'd imagine because it's the amp he has. Also, depending on the ohm curve, there can be issues with voltage rails which can adversely affect sound... though I run most of my stuff off AVR's.

There's no down-side to using an amp more powerful and capable than is needed (other than cost of said amp).

So theoretically I could push 1000wrms to my speakers? I always thought that placing that much load to speakers not designed for it will kill the speaker. But maybe it is all about volume levels and not the power.
post #1494 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

So theoretically I could push 1000wrms to my speakers?
Not for long. It would be interesting to see which killed it first, fried voice coils or over-excursion. eek.gif
You can use a 10Kw amp if you want, you just can't turn it up loud enough to exceed either the mechanical or thermal ratings of the drivers.
Quote:
This says 125 watts from one speaker would get you 107 db's at the listening area if the speaker is in a corner, 104 db's if the speaker is against a wall but not in a corner.
What this calculator does not take into account the crossover used.
It doesn't take a lot of things into consideration, including room resonant modes, the baffle step, thermal and mechanical power compression, just for starters. You can use it to get a very rudimentary estimate, but that's all. However, the crossover is one item that doesn't affect the result, unless it's botched.
post #1495 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

So theoretically I could push 1000wrms to my speakers?
No... but you could use a 1000w amp to power the speakers to whatever level they can run without breaking (An unknown amount given the blown tweeters), and it would work at least as well as a less powerful amp.

By analogy, I can hook my TV into a 10A outlet, a 15A outlet, or a 20A outlet and it works just the same.
Quote:
I always thought that placing that much load to speakers not designed for it will kill the speaker.
Unless you are discussing placing cinder blocks on top of your speaker cabinet; speakers do not carry load... they *are* load. Running too much current through your speakers will break them.
Quote:
But maybe it is all about volume levels and not the power.
The two are inextricably linked. Tell me sensitivity and volume and I can tell you the power being used. Tell me power and volume and I can tell you sensitivity. Tell me power and sensitivity and I can tell you volume.
post #1496 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toymachyne View Post

So theoretically I could push 1000wrms to my speakers? I always thought that placing that much load to speakers not designed for it will kill the speaker. But maybe it is all about volume levels and not the power.
If you push 1000 watts at your speakers, the tweeter domes will probably hit the opposite wall! However if you have a 1000 watt amp hooked up to your speakers, and listen at reasonable levels, it will be just fine. Really amps do not "push" watts to speakers, rather speakers draw what they need. If you try to make them insanely loud, they will demand ungodly amounts of power, which they cannot handle!eek.gif
post #1497 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdcrox View Post

Really amps do not "push" watts to speakers, rather speakers draw what they need.
That's not the case. Speaker's don't draw watts, though the argument can be made that they draw current. In any event, what determines how loud a speaker goes is the voltage swing provided by the amp, and that figure is decided by the amp, the speaker doesn't get a vote in the matter, unless it's too much, and then it will reveal its displeasure by the release of magic smoke. mad.gif
post #1498 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

However, the crossover is one item that doesn't affect the result, unless it's botched.

I meant crossing over to the subs. I assume a lot less watts be needed to power the speakers if crossed over to the subs at say 80 hz.
post #1499 of 1749
I have yet to open up my Pendragons. Does anyone know if this tweeter ( SB Acoustics SB29RDCN-C000-4) is the one in the Pens?

http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ring-radiator-tweeters/sb-acoustics-sb29rdcn-c000-4-neo-magnet-ring-dome-tweeter/

These look like the one in the pens from the front. Assuming these are the ones I see they are rated @ 100 w with the proper crossover point.

Thats a huge power rating for a tweeter. Heck, my Pro EV horn drivers are only rated at 60w and have survived a live show with 4,000 crazy bikers.

I would think these tweets would be very hard to fry but that gets me back to wondering if the crossover is designed with-in spec. The tweet mfg says they need a high-pass Butterworth, 2600 Hz. 12 dB/oct crossover.

As a Pendragon owner I am thinking it may be worthwhile to pick a few up for spare just in case. Would be a bad thing to pop one after they stop making replacements a year or so from now. I was able to get some B&W parts 15 years later but may not be so lucky with the Pendragons.
post #1500 of 1749
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

I meant crossing over to the subs. I assume a lot less watts be needed to power the speakers if crossed over to the subs at say 80 hz.
The speakers would require the same voltage swing to reach the same output. What the crossover frequency to the subs would affect is how loud the woofers could go before reaching their maximum excursion. Usually that's the limiting factor with full rangers,
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