Building a Thin Edge or Edgeless screen. Materials, building methods and any other suggestions?

Sintra. Silver Fire 4.0

Too find Sintra in your area, don't rely on the internet. You have to get on the phone and call around sign shops and plastic supply houses. I'd be extremely surprised if you couldn't find it in a city like St. Louis. Try the name Komatex as well, same stuff different brand. You'll want the 6mm thick stuff.

Oops MM beat me to the punch. Good for the OP, MM is certainly the go to guy on stuff like this.

Thanks for the effusive compliment. I hope it doesn't bring the Dawgs out to chew on my legendary leg.

If you want to truly create a screen that comes as close to performing like a DNP "SN" as possible...or match / exceed the scope of a Black Diamond, Silver Fire is the application that must be considered.

S-I-L-V-E-R is all about having very appreciable gain but not sacrificing truly dynamic Colors and deep Blacks.

As for that "yellowing business"...that's almost assuredly a bunch of malarky...primarily because a very few have wanted to press an issue that MinWax Polyacrylic Satin will yellow over time. But you see, S-I-L-V-E-R doesn't use Polyacrylic, it uses Behr Faux Glaze.

To this date, no S-I-L-V-E-R I have ever been involved with, or helped another create has ever showed signs of yellowing....or fading. None. Nada. El Zippo. And I have one extremely large S-I-L-V-E-R (220" diagonal) to my credit that I can point out plainly that has been in use since 2006. If that Big 'Ol Sucker was even beginning to deteriorate, it would be terribly apparent. It resides in dedicated $150K Theater whose Owner is extremely picky...a real Performance Pre Madonna, and if he ever saw anything but what he felt was pristine......

As for Polyacrylic yellowing? Well, it hasn't ever done so on any of the 100s of screens I've painted. It only comprises just under 1/3rd the bulk content of the SF mix. The balance are acrylic painte, and water, both that would serve to dilute the Poly and further reduce any tendency toward yellowing....by my reasoning.

All I can actually do is speculate as to if you might ever have any issues therein. But that speculation is driven by several years experience, and since I've personally never had any issues, and "this Forum" doesn't have any posts to that effect that I can point to, I speculate that you also will not have any issue should you opt to use a mix like SF.

Trouble maker.

So OK.

SF does NOT Hot Spot. It does have a positive gain factor, so the center of the screen...a VERY wide center, can show a variable level of brightness when a solid bright color is photographed. (...especially when "negatively" inverted.") And this is accentuated when a small screen is utilized, and even more so if a very small sample is used, placed at center. Those types of misleading methods are consistently used elsewhere in a attempt to show SF "in a bad light" but in fact, you will find virtually NO other similar commentary elsewhere. And you can be certain there are / have been enough SF End Users on AVS over the last 6 years that if only a small percentage of those had bad reports to relate, this DIY Forum would be inundated. But....it is not, and the very few who wander over 'elsewhere' certainly are going to be "educated" to the way of thinking that is prevalent on a Forum that is desperately trying to persuade any / all comers that their brand of DIY Screen making is the only valid way to consider.

And sadly, yes...SF is constantly targeted because SF is a AVS DIY Screen standard, resulting from a concerted effort to develop a alternative to expensive ambient light screens (...originally the SONY Chroma Vue...), due to a challenge directed squarely at this Forum by advocates of those expensive screens. But...no one else bothered to try except PB-Maxx and myself, and we pretty much nailed it in short order. At the time, a "few" people were engaged even back them at constantly harassing every advanced DIY application we / I offered...and back then, not a single one of them was but adamant that NO kind of application that utilized a reflective base was even worth considering.

It is a all to forgotten reason, that simple jealousy drove most of those comments. Not to say anything with that remark except that because of the exceptional amount of effort and time spent relating about out applications, and the inordinate amount of time spent helping all comers, we did in fact tend to dominate the Thread Board. For some, this "popularity" was intolerable...and our efforts "intentional" as far as trying to "own' this Forum.

Such attitudes are childish...and spiteful, and the type of posts generated and the bile that was spewed proved that. And as time progressed, it became a war of attrition that almost resulted in this Forum being closed. such was the single mindedness of a few people, whose primary goal became not so much ridding the Forum of my applications as much as it was ridding the Forum of me personally.

So those few moved (...or were made to move...) on by the Forum Administration, because as often happens when too much leeway is granted for too long, they took their actions much too far, damaging the Forum's reputation Worldwide (...and that was quite a feat to accomplish...) Of course, I played a part as I was one of only a few who stood up consistently (...with a bulls eye on my chest...) to those who acted so adversely and selfishly, and I would not hesitate to go "Mississippi" on 'em. Yes, I got censured at times when I got a bit to "adamant" at being called names and having accusations tossed my direction, but those others? Whoo Boy! Even after repeated temporary banishment s, stricken posts, and directly posted "Offical" warnings, they not only continued on, they elevated their contentious behavior to the point of accusing the Forum Administrators of favoring a person/s over the other.

Not a smart thing to do. The end result was a "very small" exodus to a location where those few could create a Draconian DIY Forum that is exclusive in it's acceptance of only what is considered acceptable on their terms. Crazily though...the same adverse behavior they felt so free to exercise on AVS is considered to be a "One strike and Your Out' sort of thing "over there". (Guilt driven...no doubt.. .)

So there is your reason/s for the "hate" you read....and it's probably never gonna abate as long as this Forum maintains it's tremendous popularity...and I still draw in oxygen.

Now after all that, on Christmas Eve, let me extend a Olive Branch of sorts (..well, at least a twig sized one...)

A time is coming soon when there will be far less a disparity in how DIY applications are presented. and excepting for missives like this one which try to set things in proper perspective, this Forum and me personally will not stoop to name calling or the degradation of applications or persons just to attempt to garner undecided followers. On truth, a close examination of posts show a lessening of all the adverse posting elsewhere, but as to if that will continue...who can say?

I sincerely hope that the tone (...if not indeed the intent...) of all posts in both locations can be hauled back into a "Happy Place". Aspiring or Wannabe DIY'ers deserve to be encouraged to explore options if possible, but if desirous of simply "gettin' it dun" , also be able to depend upon getting help when needed without dealing with acrimonious postings here or elsewhere.

So as often stated...let's all of us Play Nice, and stay off the "Naughty List".


Oh yeah. Laminate.

Well, there was once a time when any "Hang and Shoot' material was extremely lusted after. and Laminate served to allow people to have something along that order in sizes that most other materials could not. So some of the "less than optimal" aspects were pretty much glossed over. (...no pun that...)

Laminate is very brittle, and it doesn't take much of a miscue to render a over sized sheet worthless...or in the least only good for a smaller sized screen project.
Laminate possesses just enough of a sheen that often there is in fact a "Hot Spot"...which is correctly described as a "small" area of noticeable brightness that will move with the changing location of one's head.
Laminate as a rule demands that a very sturdy, very flat frame be built, one that will not tend to ever warp.
Laminate requires that it be effectively glued to such a Frame using a very thin but strong adhesive...usually Contact Cement. As such, it becomes a case where you get one chance to do it right...or scrap it.

So now...if one has a PJ with lower Lumens, or is using quite a bit of Zoom on a large Screen, many times the "Hot Spot" issue becomes less of a problem if not indeed resolved entirely.
All there rest of the caveats mentioned above deal with actual "building" issues, and if you / one can avoid them all, then yes, Laminate may be quite the serviceable material. And ("...heresy of heresies...) it can always be used as a "Canvass' on which to apply a painted Screen solution of choice should the "raw performance" not be satisfactory.

In the end, if a material like Sintra / Komatex can be had, it completely resolves all the adverse potential a Laminate brings to the table. As a staunch advocate for keeping risks at bay, I'll always suggest such material over a laminate. But when the need calls for a Laminate, then what is required is that the end user be informed and educated as to what to do...and what to avoid. It's really just that simple.

That's about it.....have a very Merry Christmas

......and go eat some cookies. I'm sure they will be easier to digest than this self generated onus.

Luck can be fickle.

If your serious about accomplishing a really exceptional Screen build, ask for and follow advice...all of it, and don't just go off and "give it a shot".

There can be a huge gap between what you can accomplish on "hope & luck" alone, and what is actually possible with effective guidance and support.

So....choose wisely, and let "Luck" reside with those who are willing to gamble on uncertainty.

Try Google Sketch-Up

It seems to be a very popular program, and the renderings I've seen are really precise and look expertly laid out.

You / we can get you to a true Zero Edge place...unlike that 'ol Mfg Screen pretender whose screen "DOES" in fact have a edge.

Please note that the Sintra is White. Your wall will not be. Ypu will want to use the white underside of the Sintra edge to diffuse and distribute the Light so it is not "harsh" looking as it exits out the edges. You want a "Glow"....not a hard "Bright" edge.

Sorry for hijack this thread, anyone know what's the gain of a plain white Sintra? 1.0?

Pretty close...no less, but probably not significantly more.

Thanks MM

100% agree with this!. Polycrylic and Polyurethane are drastically different materials. Will Polyurethane yellow over time? You bet. Will polycrylic? Not anymore than any other latex, and in fact I could make the argument that the addition of urethane molecules will in fact keep it more clear than 100% acrylic mixtures. If misinformed people believe it will, I'll be happy to give a sermon on the molecular differences between the alkyds and acrylics that comprise the two "poly"products. The solvents that comprise Polycrylic are drastically different from those that comprise polyurethanes (which in fact yellow more and more each day). In fact one of my manufacturers provides a 10 year labor and material warranty on products with similar molecular structure, if that tells you how confident we are in the resins. And when I say warranty don't give me that "but Behr, Lowe's, Sherwin, Menards, etc have lifetime warranties..." Read the fine print kiddos. As someone who works in coatings for a living I would have zero reservations about putting Polycrylic or other waterborne urethanes in my theater or anyone else's.

Couldn't have been said better. The chances of boc, materials, textiles, and many hang and shoot substrates yellowing are far greater.

Details will be forthcoming soon........................................after dinner and a few Margaritas.

OK...say 4 of 'em. All Patron fueled.

Check back early am?

This is early for me...................


The best way to have a removable screen and a secure mounting solution....both at the most reasonable cost, is to have the Sheet overlay a frame of 1x lumber so that at least 1.5" overhangs the edges of the Frame. The overhang will be your "edge lighting shield"
Also, the Frame should have at least two vertical supports centrally located toward center so as to prevent any "outward" bowing by a unsupported center.

You could use Velcro....the Heavy Duty variety...and do so using long strips between 1/8" shims of material that help prevent surface dips. But don't expect the adhesive on the Velcro to keep hanging on if you ever pull the screen off. You can be certain that it will pull off the wood.....unless you shoot 1/2" staples through the "Hook" Pads. However the Velcro Pads on the material will come off, so you'll have to buy more to replace the part that pulls away.

And Velcro in the size and the amounts you'll need is not inexpensive. But if this Screen is to be "removable" it's about the only choice I can think of if your going for a Zero Edge look.

Frame it and paint it in place. You'll also need to use some Cardboard Wings along the Zero Edge to level out the 3/4" drop off so you prevent what is called Vortexing...(ie: The paint does not lay down along the edge, leaving a sparsely coated edge.)

http://www.amazon.com/Factory-Reconditioned-Graco-HV2900-Paint-Station/dp/B005QQ0AFS

It's really pretty easy....it just involves getting the viscosity of the paint correct, making sure you filter the paint into the Gun's Cup, and maintain a consistent pattern of spraying. See....it's easy! (...don't worry, we'll review technique later... )


I use/used Rope Lighting...(...and 2x4 frame)...but recently LED "strip" offerings have come down in price a bit, and many offer alternating user-variable colors. Whichever you choose your screen design must incorporate access to a switchable electrical outlet located within the inside perimeter of the Framing, (...use a recessed outlet...) with a "pass through channel" through the framing (...or you dive under the Framing through the Drywall...) to allow the stringing of the lights along the outside edge of the recessed 1x framing. I noted on your drawing you used a "wedge". Don't.
Attach the lighting directly to the outside edge of the 1x

So OK....be advised that sometimes I can / do make things seem simplier than they can be. But also be advised that I'm available for virtually "Real Time" advice if you need it. Just PM me for a contact number, and if during the build, or during the acquisition of supplies you run into a wall of indecision or terror, you can call me....right them. Not post up afterwards in tears and frustration....or have to wait for me to get over a hangover.

How is the build going? I am doing something very close to what you are doing so would love to hear how things work for you.

Have fun building!

Any progress?

Looking forward to seeing how it looks! I will be doing something similar in a few months. I know it is recommended to have darker walls/ceiling in theater rooms, but how does that affect the LED ambient lighting? Should you leave the wall that the screen is on a lighter color or does it not matter?

Guys I just completed an edgeless screen:

This is a fixed screen mounted to a wall in a a completely blacked out cave.

It is a 113 x 64 screen ( 130') No cost effective laminates or materials were available in my area

Construction is 2x4s directly mounted to the the sheetrock.

I used and amazing material called Flexiwhite from an online vendor on the net and through the "big river" (do a search for Flexiwhite screen material in the usual places)

I mounted the 2x4s to the walls adjusting them with the projector grid displayed.

Then I sanded the 2x4s smooth and file matched the joints.

Next up I covered the face and rollover surfaces of the 2x4s with Duvetyne tape. (this will keep the material from catching, and / or showing the surface differences underneath)

Finally, I stretched the material over the frame like a canvas, and air stapled it in place.

I have added 8-10' pieces of velcro to and bottom sides of the screen to attach masking panels made from felt.

It is completely edgeless and falls perfectly in frame, the effect is quite striking.

I have to say the FlexiWhite material from the "vendor place" is SMOOTH, very white and great to work with. It looks very much like a Stewart Snomatte 100 sample I have (texture wise, the Stewart is a warmer white)

The lack of any grain, fabric texture etc.. seems to make the screen disappear and it looks like a window when high displaying high quality 2d transfers and 3d material, it is easily my best screen to date.. over 14 years...

I will post pics as soon as possible, it looks amazing.

(Edited to remove the Vendor's name at request)
Edited by tehotaone - 3/16/13 at 8:42am