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Count 1 more for all receivers sound the same - Page 3

post #61 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guzzi 1 View Post

To all the naysayers, do you folks really understand that there are high quality electronics and low quality, as well as things in between? Take resistors. There are at least three grades that I am aware of, (maybe more). They all have the same value, but the better ones work within tighter tolerances. For instance, a cheap resistor might work within a + or - 20%. Mid grade + or - 10%. High grade +or- 5%. The tighter tolerance does a better job, and cost more. Not all the internal components in a piece of audio equipment, or anything else for that matter, are created equal. Better stuff cost more. It does a better job. You pay for that. You also reap the rewards for that. IF you have a tin ear, and cannot tell the difference, then don't waste your money. Don't waste time here on this forum, and go buy yourself HTIB. After all, you claim it all sounds the same.

Lets take your arguement to cars. You insert the key and the car starts. They all run. If, by your definition, they're "all the same" then why aren't we all driving Yugo's. They were dirt cheap brand new. Anybody?

I suppose I have wasted enough time on this subject. Merry Christmas.

John

 

What is the 'better job' that it does?

post #62 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post

^^^^

Have to love posts where the claim is made that " No doubt plenty of data is available" but then don't post the data.

If you have information supporting your position that the different parts have audible impact, now would be a great time to post them.

 

+1

post #63 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsaville View Post

Since when is scientific proof required for a subjective opinion? I recently switched from an Onkyo 3008 to a Yamaha A3010, and the Yamaha sounds so much better for 2.1 stereo that I have been revisiting my entire music library over the past few weeks. On the Onkyo, 2.1 stereo sounded like absolute garbage (I generally used PL II Music, although that didn't sound great either). Considering that one company is known for producing world-class musical instruments while the other is known for producing shoddy HDMI boards, I'm not surprised that the Yamaha is more "musical." But I guess since I can't prove it with a graph, my opinion must be wrong.

 

If you can hear a difference then a difference can be measured. Do you have any measurements that would explain the differences you are hearing?

post #64 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

If you "believe" a Yamaha will sound more musical, or Onkyo more dynamic etc....your brain typically won't let you down......

Confirmation Bias- favors only information to confirm their beliefs. Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence.

Example: Commsysman believes that Cambridge Audio receivers sound much better than Onkyos or Denons, therefore he will discard or ignore any effidence that Onkyos or Denons can or do sound just as good or better. He wanted to believe that Cambridge Audio 551 is the only receiver to get 5 Stars audio rating, so he just ignored all the other reviews of receivers from Hometheater that gave others a 5 star in audio quality. He's believes that you need a stripped down receiver to get the best sound, therefore any receiver with MODERN day options can't sound good because its not a stripped down model.
post #65 of 540
Sorry but I'm not trading in my Anthem for that $300 Sony/Pioneer/Yamaha no matter how much they sound the same.

I'm sure one of those is your receiver of choice since they all sound the same, correct? And you all have Paradigm Sigs or B&W Nautilus' speakers from the money saved, right?
Class of amplification, power supplies, DAC's all play a role in how a receiver performs......and would they sound different? You tell me.
post #66 of 540
This thread is going to end up like every other "every receiver or pre pro or amp sounds the same" thread.
Its the holidays guys, go enjoy it!

Than we will come back on the 26th and continue our "Friendly" debate lol
post #67 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

If you "believe" a Yamaha will sound more musical, or Onkyo more dynamic etc....your brain typically won't let you down......

You're making the (faulty) assumption that I had a preconceived notion of how the Yamaha would perform. Contrary to my usual practice, I didn't read every word of the Yamaha/Denon/Pioneer threads prior to purchasing the Yamaha.

My main criteria were:

1. Not an Onkyo
2. Three powered zones (this eliminates most AVRs)
3. Android app to control my second and third zones
4. Value for the dollar
5. Not an Onkyo

The Yamaha 3010 fit my criteria, and it's on closeout so the price was right. I will freely admit that I don't notice a significant difference between the Onkyo and Yamaha for blu rays, but for 2.1 stereo the Yamaha sounds superior to me. 2.1 sounded so bad on the Onkyo I rarely used it. On the Yamaha, it is my preferred method for listening to music. I don't have measurements to "prove" what I'm hearing (nor do I have the tools to do so), but I'm happy with the difference and that's all that matters to me.

It's clear there will never be agreement on this, so everyone enjoy the rest of your Christmas. We had a rare white Christmas down here in Dallas. smile.gif
post #68 of 540
An Audiophile with a Denon 15xx avr? It goes against the definition.
post #69 of 540
tsaville, I can think of some possibilities:

1) Even though you don't think you were biased one way or the other, there are subconscious biases (such as looks, weight, etc) that can influence what you hear. I say that not to criticize you, because it's true for everybody. That's why in real blind testing the listening doesn't get to know what they're listening to.

2) Maybe the modes you used on the two different receivers aren't exactly the same. With all the audio settings and modes available in modern receivers, it's a little tricky to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. Your Yamaha might truly sound better - but maybe because of the settings you use on it vs. the settings you had on your Onkyo.

3) Maybe one wasn't performing up to spec. Unlikely, but I've seen it. Manufacturing defects do happen. Wrong parts do get installed (rarely). Units get out of the factory and don't meet all specs (it's almost impossible to do a full test of every single unit coming off the assembly line).
post #70 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Confirmation Bias- favors only information to confirm their beliefs. Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs and can maintain or strengthen beliefs in the face of contrary evidence.
Example: Commsysman believes that Cambridge Audio receivers sound much better than Onkyos or Denons, therefore he will discard or ignore any effidence that Onkyos or Denons can or do sound just as good or better. He wanted to believe that Cambridge Audio 551 is the only receiver to get 5 Stars audio rating, so he just ignored all the other reviews of receivers from Hometheater that gave others a 5 star in audio quality. He's believes that you need a stripped down receiver to get the best sound, therefore any receiver with MODERN day options can't sound good because its not a stripped down model.

What are the other models that get a five star audio rating?
post #71 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

An Audiophile with a Denon 15xx avr? It goes against the definition.

Not if all receivers sound the same. smile.gif
post #72 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

What are the other models that get a five star audio rating?

http://www.hometheater.com/category/av-receiver-reviews
Theres also many that have received 4.5 stars in the audio quality

Pioneer Elite SC-68 A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 5 Stars
Features: 5 Stars

Marantz SR7007 A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 5 Stars
Features: 5 Stars

Marantz SR6006 A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 4.5 Stars
Features: 5 Stars

Cambridge Audio Azur 551R A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 2.5 Stars
Features: 3 Stars

Maybe he is confused since I easily found more than just the CA receiver that received 5 stars, within just a few mins of reading the site. Which I read as just entertainment and not to form a concete no exceptions opinion. Its been brough to his attention before but he continues on with almost the same copy paste response over and over.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The best-sounding receiver I know of is the Cambridge Audio 551R, which runs around $1200. Home Theater magazine seems to share my opinion; they gave it a perfect "5" for sound quality, which no Japanese-brand receiver has ever been awarded to my knowledge. You might want to read that article.

Edited by gtpsuper24 - 12/25/12 at 9:26pm
post #73 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

http://www.hometheater.com/category/av-receiver-reviews
Theres also many that have received 4.5 stars in the audio quality
Pioneer Elite SC-68 A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 5 Stars
Features: 5 Stars
Marantz SR7007 A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 5 Stars
Features: 5 Stars
Marantz SR6006 A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 4.5 Stars
Features: 5 Stars
Cambridge Audio Azur 551R A/V Receiver
Audio Performance: 5 Stars
Video Performance: 2.5 Stars
Features: 3 Stars
Maybe he is confused since I easily found more than just the CA receiver that received 5 stars, within just a few mins of reading the site. Which I read as just entertainment and not to form a concete no exceptions opinion. Its been brough to his attention before but he continues on with almost the same copy paste response over and over.

Factually, I don't see an Onkyo or Denon with a 5 star rating. smile.gif
post #74 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What is the 'better job' that it does?

Some receivers do a better job at allowing more than one thing to be done post processing. My last Pioneer allowed me to use Automatic Leveling Control OR PLIIx at the same time...not both. My new one allows me to use Neo:X, Audyssey room correction, AND auto leveling control at the same time. This allows the receiver to do a better job at making me happy since it sounds better.
post #75 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yosh70 View Post

S
Class of amplification, power supplies, DAC's all play a role in how a receiver performs......and would they sound different? You tell me.

First off virtually every receiver has Class AB amplification, so that is generally the same. There are a few exceptions that are class D amd class G, but they are few and far between.

Secondly, if you actually read the reviews at places like HomeTheater.com , you will find that they measure:

Anthem MRX 700 ($2000)

Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 86.3 watts
1% distortion at 93.7 watts

Analog frequency response in Stereo mode:
–0.20 dB at 20 Hz
–0.12 dB at 20 kHz

Analog frequency response with signal processing:
–0.20 dB at 20 Hz
–0.10 dB at 20 kHz

Denon AVR-1612 ($349)

HT Labs Measures
Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 71.5 watts
1% distortion at 79.8 watts

Analog frequency response in Direct mode:
–0.01 dB at 20 Hz
–0.03 dB at 20 kHz

Analog frequency response with stereo signal processing:
–0.15 dB at 20 Hz
–0.13 dB at 20 kHz

In general the cheap Denon has the better response 20-20 KHz but not significantly or audibly so.
The difference in power is only 1.6 dB which is barely audible if you actually ever needed the added power. If you don't need the extra power which is the typical case, there is no audible difference.
There are only slight measurable differences and no audible differences.

Looking at DAC quality:

"From the (Anthem) Dolby Digital input to the loudspeaker output, the left channel measures –0.07 dB at 20 Hz and –0.09 dB at 20 kHz. The center channel measures –0.07 dB at 20 Hz and –0.05 dB at 20 kHz, and the left surround channel measures –0.07 dB at 20 Hz and –0.13 dB at 20 kHz. From the Dolby Digital input to the line-level output, the LFE channel is +0.53 dB at 20 Hz when referenced to the level at 40 Hz and reaches the upper 3-dB down point at 67 Hz and the upper 6-dB down point at 82 Hz" "The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 hertz to 24 kHz with “A” weighting was –104.67 dBrA."

"From the (Denon) Dolby Digital input to the loudspeaker output, the left channel measures –0.07 dB at 20 Hz and –0.29 dB at 20 kHz. The center channel measures –0.08 dB at 20 Hz and –0.30 dB at 20 kHz, and the left surround channel measures –0.08 dB at 20 Hz and –0.19 dB at 20 kHz. From the Dolby Digital input to the line-level output, the LFE channel is –0.02 dB at 20 Hz when referenced to the level at 40 Hz and reaches the upper 3-dB down point at 118 Hz and the upper 6-dB down point at 120 Hz" "The signal-to-noise ratio with an 8-ohm load from 10 Hz to 24 kHz with "A" weighting was –106.93 dBrA"

Again, only slight measurable differences and no audible differences.

The above facts and measurements cover every issue you raised and I quote you exactly: "Class of amplification, power supplies, DAC's all play a role in how a receiver performs"
post #76 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What is the 'better job' that it does?

Some receivers do a better job at allowing more than one thing to be done post processing. My last Pioneer allowed me to use Automatic Leveling Control OR PLIIx at the same time...not both. My new one allows me to use Neo:X, Audyssey room correction, AND auto leveling control at the same time. This allows the receiver to do a better job at making me happy since it sounds better.

I think that your points are well taken, even though the high end audiophiles dismiss such benefits as useless features, band aids, bells, and whistles.
post #77 of 540
RE resistor cost/quality/peformance:

It is a well-known fact (to engineers) that resistors all create thermal noise; that is, they cause irregularities in the current through them, as opposed to a perfectly constant invariable flow.

This is a significant cause of the noise levels in amplifier circuits.

Manufacturers of high quality oscilloscopes and preamplifiers specify the highest grade of low-noise resistors to lower circuit noise levels. These are quite expensive compared to cheaper "noisier" ones used in mass-market equipment (100 times or so).

High-quality pro-audio and other expensive gear use the more expensive resistors to improve noise levels and this is a big cost factor. The same is true of capacitors and transistors etc.

That is one reason why you pay several thousand dollars for an Audio Research or Bryston product (just 2 examples of many), and only a few hundred dollars for typical mass-market products.

Excellent performance only comes when the best components are used, and the highest design standards are adhered to.

Most people never get a chance to drive a Ferrari on a racetrack, or hear an audio system made up of truly high-performance components in an appropriate setting. That makes it difficult to communicate regarding the differences in quality and performance. If you haven't been there, it's hard to believe.



Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

What is the 'better job' that it does?

Edited by commsysman - 12/26/12 at 3:09pm
post #78 of 540
Any noise from resisters, or any other component is reflected in its signal to noise spec which all manufacturers make available. Bryston and other fringe companies do not have better SNR than main stream companies.
post #79 of 540
^Right, Theresa.

Thermal noise in resistors is so low that it's not even an issue at all in audio.

In certain test equipment that has to be orders of magnitude better than the unit-under-test, yes, it can matter.

But not in audio.

More nonsense from the master.
post #80 of 540
Ask ANY audio circuit engineer and he will back me up 100%.

Call Audio Research in Minnesota tomorrow and ask to talk one of their tech people and ask them why they use such expensive resistors in their circuits.Tell the operator you have a technical question you need an answer for.

Make the call if you want to be PROVED dead wrong. 1-763-577-9700.

Until you make the call, please quit wasting our time with comments that are ridiculous to any engineer.




Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

^Right, Theresa.
Thermal noise in resistors is so low that it's not even an issue at all in audio.
In certain test equipment that has to be orders of magnitude better than the unit-under-test, yes, it can matter.
But not in audio.
More nonsense from the master.
post #81 of 540
I asked myself, and several coworkers - you know, people who have designed and tested several consumer A/V products - and the conclusion was unanimous.

If you want to believe the marketing hype of Audio Research without giving it any critical thought (your M.O.), then feel free.

But you won't fool the rest of us.

Feel free to provide Audio Precision plots showing the difference in SNR, THD, or any other parametric when different resistor types are used in a design.
post #82 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Ask ANY audio circuit engineer and he will back me up 100%.
Call Audio Research in Minnesota tomorrow and ask to talk one of their tech people and ask them why they use such expensive resistors in their circuits.Tell the operator you have a technical question you need an answer for.
Make the call if you want to be PROVED dead wrong. 1-763-577-9700.
Until you make the call, please quit wasting our time with comments that are ridiculous to any engineer.

So if we want to get proven dead wrong call their sales techs?
post #83 of 540
Their techs have nothing to do with sales; strictly repairs, service and tech support.

And there is no 'WE'.

My comment was a response to one person only, and that was beave.
post #84 of 540
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

Their techs have nothing to do with sales; strictly repairs, service and tech support.
And there is no 'WE'.
My comment was a response to one person only, and that was beave.

The point is if there is a difference in sound than it could be proven by measurements and/or a double blind test, until either is shown it's just talk and talk is cheap.
post #85 of 540
This is so much better than snl lol
post #86 of 540
I disagree with # 2 and #3. I have a receiver weighing 55 pounds which has audyessy xt32 . so I do indeed have a good power supply . The whole point of Audyessy is to reduce standing waves etc in your room and believe me it does work.The 80 Hz doesn't hold water because of the 24 db slope so the mains would get the 60 hz signal but on a sliding scale. The 80 db setting also saves your amp from doing all the heavy lifting by sending the low stuff where it belongs.

John
post #87 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by aarons915 View Post

The point is if there is a difference in sound than it could be proven by measurements and/or a double blind test, until either is shown it's just talk and talk is cheap.

Exactly.

Appeal to authority is not proof. Because a reviewer says so is not proof. Because a manufacturer says so is not proof.

Measurements showing a difference, and then double-blind tests showing those differences are audible - now that is proof.
post #88 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by beaveav View Post

Exactly.
Appeal to authority is not proof. Because a reviewer says so is not proof. Because a manufacturer says so is not proof.
Measurements showing a difference, and then double-blind tests showing those differences are audible - now that is proof.

So what your saying is that I can't quote Hometheater or Stereophile and pass it off as a undisputable fact? tongue.gif
post #89 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorCalJason View Post

Not if all receivers sound the same. smile.gif

All avr's do not sound the same since other factors have to be taken into account like room correction software, sub EQ, HDMI jitter reduction and some other features. Now if we strip down every av that is a different situation. And this thing about operating them within their power level,yes a Kia and a Mercedes can both go 60 mph but which rides better at 110 mph? In the real world we all don't go 60 mph.
post #90 of 540
Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post

All avr's do not sound the same since other factors have to be taken into account like room correction software, sub EQ, HDMI jitter reduction and some other features. Now if we strip down every av that is a different situation. And this thing about operating them within their power level,yes a Kia and a Mercedes can both go 60 mph but which rides better at 110 mph? In the real world we all don't go 60 mph.

Car analogies are not worth much. You are of course right that all AVRs do not sound the same because of the various features. As for operating within their limits you are right that amps will perform differently when operated at their max output if their power ratings are not the same but the power difference must be significant. Are you referring to 120 watts vs. 140 watts? That is an insignificant difference. But perhaps you mean a 500 watt amp vs 120 watts, that's still far less than sounding twice as loud which takes 10db of difference. Also loudspeakers present different loads and have limitations to their output that make them sound different with different amplifiers. There are those with speakers that present a very difficult load, many of which are highly respected, that will sound different with different amps but this is unusual. But given all tested amps have similar output power and tested using the same speakers that present a reasonable load they will almost always sound the same.
Edited by Theresa - 12/27/12 at 4:31am
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