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Can someone lend me their Chromapure with auto calibrate? - Page 2

post #31 of 66
Who knows Geof, it could be a combination of equipment or environment, but if it works for you then why not?
post #32 of 66
Originally Posted by Kelvin1965S View Post

Who knows Geof, it could be a combination of equipment or environment, but if it works for you then why not?
Hey it worked for Greg Rogers too!
post #33 of 66
Thread Starter 
The problem may not be the enhanced hdmi per we but the enhanced hdmi setting on the projector and it's interaction with the player? Anyway 7 hrs later on chromapure and I have changed the color mode on the duo to 422 to see if it will work.
post #34 of 66
Thread Starter 
Oh my goodness....it is true what they have been saying about getting greyscale and gamma right....absolutely ridiculously stupendously freakishly good!!

It finally all came together thanks to kelvin for his help.

The chromapure auto calibrate is an amazing invention. Easy to use. My nuts would have fallen off if I had to do it normally. When you see the amount of back and forth calculations and adjustments the auto calibrate process makes, you'll know that you are looking at divorce proceedings down the track if you should decide to do it manually.

I set the gamma at 2.22. I watched the last of the Mohicans bluray and I was blown away in the first 5 seconds. The scene just grabbed me because my eyes could now track scenes in the bright areas and darker areas in the forest...shadow detail and more shadow detail whilst retaining pop !

Everything just looked more like you are looking out a window and less Mickey mouse colors. Your brain just immediately recognize that it is what true to life colors look more like and therefore locks your attention to the picture even further.

The biggest improvement for me is shadow detail consistency throughout different brightness levels.

My jvc rs40 now more closely resembles Russ brooks Nec CRT setup which was always the holy grail in picture quality to me.

Every projector owner should not be without a properly calibrated projector is my feeling now. You don't know how inconsistently your projector is performing across all IRE levels until you see a before and after. The improvement in realism ain't subtle and is very mesmerizing...your brain just locks on!

Bottomline is you will see the outcome in your displays image so all those before and after stats do translate directly to results on the screen.

The Lumangen minis price was a bit too rich for me so I went with the DVDo chromapure package.
Edited by lyndonlim - 12/28/12 at 6:10pm
post #35 of 66
Thread Starter 
Thanks to Tom Huffman for sharing his intelligence with the world at such a modest entry point price wise. Thank God for calman for keeping chromapure prices competitive ....ha..ha...
post #36 of 66
Lyndonlin.................Glad you are gettting great results!!. Kelvin has helped me a lot too. BTW, did you end up calibrating in "Enhanced" HDMI or "Standard?"

post #37 of 66
Thread Starter 
I stuck to standard but I may change it later.
post #38 of 66
Hey, sounds like you finally got there then Lyndomlim. cool.gif I watched 'My Week with Marilyn' last night on my X35/Mini3D/Darbee and it looked fantastic, such natural colours you could almost smell the autumn leaves in the garden. biggrin.gif I'd planed to run a fresh calibration (having another go at BT 1886 with the sensor facing the projector), but I've just been too busy enjoying it. Lamp is still as bright at 70+ hours as when I checked it at 15 hours. cool.gif I once spent a 7 hour session fighting with the custom gamma controls on my old HD350 just trying to get greyscale and gamma spot on and it still didn't look a patch on an autocal after 30 minutes, so another thanks to Tom (and Lumagen in my case) for this brilliant development.

EDIT: I will have a try with the enhanced HDMI next time I get the calibration discs/gear out, but don't have a problem with shadow detail at the moment in Superwhite, so may not show any improvement in my set up.
post #39 of 66
I guess I sounded like an advertisement for using Enhanced instead of Standard but that was not my intention. It's an alternate way of setting up the system and it may or may not prove beneficial to the user. I was merely trying to point out that this approach does work but I certainly didn't mean to imply that this is the way to set it up.
post #40 of 66
Thread Starter 
Yes. I started the process for the first time at 11.30pm and finally when to bed at 7am in the morning when I finally figured out what was wrong. The second time I ran it took me 17 minutes.

I think I am starting to enjoy color calibration more than watching movies...the science and maths behind it can be quite fun especially when tom has already put in all the hard work with the chromapure auto calibration option.

I was really amazed at how much more natural the pq was after calibration. In terms of skin tones, the out of box colors were already excellent from my rs40 so I would say close to zero improvement there but everything else looks more stunningly real....like you are looking out a window...combine more natural colors with jvc blacks and you have one of the worlds best pq in your living room I truly believe.
post #41 of 66
Geof: No, that's the joy of this hobby: Trying out different ideas and seeing what works best in your set up. Two users could have totally different results due to the variations in their equipment, environment and set up, so nothing is cast in stone. smile.gif

Lyndonlim: You'll have to watch you don't get sucked down a black hole with calibration...I had some of those very late nights myself chasing the dEs. biggrin.gif Time to relax now and enjoy the results. cool.gif
post #42 of 66
Thread Starter 

After you run the auto calibrate how do you lock in the settings on the lumagen? Do you just save it from chromapure? Or do you have to save it on the lumagen as a user preset in the lumagen menu?
post #43 of 66
With the Lumagen it is automatically saved into whichever CMS memory is in use at the time. It means that you have to be careful not to overwrite a CMS that you might want (such as I use 2 other CMS memories for two different TVs also connected to my Lumagen via a HDMI splitter). The Lumagen has 8 CMS memories and it's easy to copy across settings to spare memory slots (and to back up the configuration to a PC as well) so I tend to have a few duplicate CMS memories for safe keeping.
post #44 of 66
Thread Starter 
Kelvin, back to the question of adjusting white balance prior to running auto cal, how would you achieve this task?

I thought auto cal balances white balance levels at all IREs ?
post #45 of 66
Lyndolim, as I indicated in an earlier post, Kelvin has helped me through this calibration process and truthfully, I probably would have given up if it weren't for his help. That said, and I cannot speak for him, but I believe you have to adjust the white balance by opening up the white balance module in chromapure and adjusting the RGB in real time. You would have to display a 100% white pattern and click on "continuous" then measure. Once you adjust the three colours to as close to 100% as possible, then you can run autocal. At least that is what Klvin told me to do
I think..


Originally Posted by lyndonlim View Post

Kelvin, back to the question of adjusting white balance prior to running auto cal, how would you achieve this task?
I thought auto cal balances white balance levels at all IREs ?
post #46 of 66
Atabea is correct, just to add that you use the display's own RGB gain controls to adjust the whitebalance at 100% and you need to make sure that the Lumagen is set to a 'neutral' setting (ie the greyscale and CMS are at default). I can't remember where I read this now, but it seems to work for me.

Sorry for the delay, I've been at a demo day with some forum members off the UK AVForums and I've just seen the Sony VW1000. eek.gif Now I know what I aspire to if I win the lottery. smile.gif
post #47 of 66
Thread Starter 
Fantastic. Your explanation is crystal clear. So basically the aim is to ensue that the basics are as good as can be prior to auto calibration.

Gamma above 70 ire is the hardest to achieve conistency.
post #48 of 66
Thread Starter 
I am finding that color and greyscale is tracking very well post calibration but gamma curve set at 2.22 takes a dive after ire 70. Could these results point to another in correct setting issue ?

I did get gamma calibrated consistently at 2.22 but I can't seem to replicate that.
post #49 of 66
It could be caused by a few things, plus there are few points to look out for:

1. The main contrast (or RGB gains) could be set too high, though I would expect you the be able to see the clipping in test patterns if this were the case.

2. With JVCs sometimes the base gamma can become uneven with time, such that the low % goes high and the high % drops down. All you can do is try different base gammas by doing some pre calibration runs to select the closest to your target gamma. Typically to hit 2.22 you'll have to select one a bit higher, but even this might have the 'droop' issue.

3. I keep saying it, but make sure the Lumagen settings are cleared when doing the set up (and pre calibration runs). It would help if there was a button in Chromapure to perform this task as part of the pre calibration checks, but I don't know if this is even possible. Might be worth asking Tom about this.

4. Don't use the gamma factor setting in the Lumagen if using autocal, it needs to be at the default setting of 1.0 if you have changed it.

I can't think of anything else right now, other than if you get a result that works, make sure you copy that CMS setting to a spare one or use the back up configuration utility (and make a note of the projector settings you used with it). That way you can always go back to it if another autocal doesn't work out. This happened to me when I tried the BT 1886 gamma option, but I just went back to a previous autocal CMS with 2.22 gamma and I have another CMS slot with 2.3 in it for comparison (hard to tell much difference in my room TBH).
post #50 of 66
Thread Starter 
Thanks for your detailed input kelvin. I set everything to factory default on the duo and started again. I started first with getting the white balance right. There was a significant amount of tweaking made to the blue and green gain on the projector to get rgb balanced at 100 and 75 ire.

I redid auto cal and results were better but now I am getting a gamma factor of 2.6 at 10 ire before stabilising at 2.22 from 20 to 90 ire.

The charts still show a major major improvement to the original rs40 setting.
post #51 of 66
Sorry I got mixed up that you have a Duo, not the Mini3D. What are you adjusting to get 75% balanced before calibration? If it's the RGB gains, then I would focus on just the 100%, though if you've used the custom gamma to do the 75% I don't think it is a bad thing. Remember to make sure your RGB offsets are at zero as they only ever seem to cause raised black levels or crushing set to anything else.

The 2.6 gamma reading at 10% could be meter errors due to the very low levels, especially if the screen has gain as it's harder to get a reading off the screen as the meter has to be off axis. Taking a separate reading of greyscale and gamma with the meter facing the screen should confirm this, though there could be a shift in white balance measuring this way, the gamma readings should be more accurate due to the higher level of light hitting the sensor. You'd then have to decide if it is better to measure from the projector (with diffuser in place) for more consistent readings or from the screen to account for any colour shift of the screen itself.
post #52 of 66
Thread Starter 
Wow...you saved me time again. I actually started auto cal with offsets manipulated.

With a gamma of 2.6 at ire 10, the picture was pretty unwatchable even though the other higher ire gamma was at 2.22. The image was far too dim.

Your suggestions make a lot of sense so I may either change the position of the sensor or let it face the projector with the diffuser on to get gamma dialed in properly.
post #53 of 66
Thread Starter 
I moved the meter closer to the screen. I am now getting more palatable gamma readings post auto cal. Between ire 10 to 60 I am averaging around 2.20 then between ire70 and ire 90 I am getting around 2.11

Not perfect but much better than before.

Now I know what you mean by saying that it is not as automated as it sounds as there is still an elect of experimentation. I could not imagine it without auto calibration.
post #54 of 66
I think that having spent 4 years or more learning how to do manual calibrations* struggling to get even half way decent results with various displays I've owned, that the autocal does seem a much simpler option. However as you say there is still some effort and experimentation required to get the very best results. I think that Tom has made it as straightforward as he could (bar perhaps adding that 'clear settings' button that I think might help some users out when doing the initial set up prior to calibration), but of course it still requires some effort from the user, but I think that it's good to learn the basics just to better understand what is going on.

Have you tried taking readings with the sensor facing the projector instead? If you do a post calibration greyscale and gamma check with the sensor set this way (diffuser in place) you could see if there is much colour shift due to your screen (compared to your autocal results). In any case, best to take some time to try to get the sensor angled such that it gives the highest reading with a 100% white pattern showing: I use the whitebalance screen for this set to read continuously while I adjust the angle of the sensor to the screen.

* Also thanks to many on these and other forums who took time to help me out when I was learning. smile.gif
post #55 of 66
Thread Starter 
Yeah I did face the sensor towards the projector with the diffusor on. Surprisingly, the results mirror what I got when the sensor was reading off the screen. Color and greyscale were pretty spot on but gamma was still around 2.11 from 70 ire onwards. My concern is that this will result in washed out images during brighter scenes.
post #56 of 66
Maybe Tom might comment, but perhaps all you can do is manually adjust the gamma before continuing on with the colour gamut steps. However, 2.11 above 70% probably won't be too noticeable more due to real content tending to be below that for most of the time.
post #57 of 66
Can't you manually tweak it?

In my experience gamma and grayscale autocal gets close but there are several limitations.

First, in the case of my RS4810, the luminance of 100% is fluctuating quite a bit. I can sit there and watch a 95% gamma value fluctuate between a gamma of 1.9 and 2.5. This fluctuation is noticeable above 75-80% (by 75% or so the fluctuation is quite a bit less). I can't blame Chromapure for that because it's actually the lamp that's causing the fluctuation in light output. Regardless, the autocal routine does not sit there and average out those fluctuations like I can do by eye so in this instance a manual touch yields better results.

Secondly, at the lower levels (below 25%) there can be an increasingly lengthy settling out time (especially at 5 and 10%) for grayscale adjustments. If I lower red and raise green (for example) it can take awhile for things to stabilize. The program takes a reading and if it's within criteria (ie, ∆E ≤1.75) Chromapure moves on even if things have not yet settled out. Bottom line for me is that Chromapure gets it close but I can usually improve upon it by watching it and waiting for it to stabilize. In fact I get very repeatable results at 5 -15% by doing this. Don't misunderstand, I think autocal is great and it works decently but it's not infallible and as such I always go back and do a manual touch up after the fact.
post #58 of 66
Thread Starter 
Why didn't I think of manually adjusting gamma before. That is a good idea. Yes. The bulb does seem to shift its intensity which explains the reason I get a different result each time I run auto calibration. Which adjustment to adjust gamma manually in iscan duo? Is there like a gamma adjustment or do you have to muck around with colors intensity adjustment?
post #59 of 66
Sorry, I can't help you with that question as I have a Lumagen and not a Duo. I'm sure someone else will chirp in though.
post #60 of 66
Originally Posted by lyndonlim View Post

Why didn't I think of manually adjusting gamma before. That is a good idea. Yes. The bulb does seem to shift its intensity which explains the reason I get a different result each time I run auto calibration. Which adjustment to adjust gamma manually in iscan duo? Is there like a gamma adjustment or do you have to muck around with colors intensity adjustment?

Menu, Output Setup, CMS, Gray Scale, IRE Level, White-Y.
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