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High output, multiple driver DIY main recommendations? - Page 7

post #181 of 478
1/4/13 at 10:51am
Andrew,

My horn came off a dual 15" arrangement, it had power that was flat-out dangerous in a small home. Dual 12" seemed to hit the sweet spot for a 2-way with a large CD horn but my room is smaller. I think you should aim to cross over as low as possible, which would require a larger waveguide - around 600-700 Hz would be great, then you'd have zero issues using 15's if you wanted to and besides IMO the lower you get the horn to cross over the better everything sounds.
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post #182 of 478
1/6/13 at 6:04am
Thread Starter 
Mark - the design I am going to use will cross over at 1100hz. The b&c driver is more than capable up to that point. The DNA 360 will take over from there. This combination has measured awesome both on and off axis.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=140.0

Also - PM'd with Erich quite a bit last night. We settled on 17.25w x 27"h with a 2" x 15" slot port for the front baffles. The kits should be shipping out early this week.
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post #183 of 478
1/6/13 at 7:23am
Word, looks like it's going to be great I'm sure you'll have your new speakers ready in no time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Mark - the design I am going to use will cross over at 1100hz. The b&c driver is more than capable up to that point. The DNA 360 will take over from there. This combination has measured awesome both on and off axis.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=140.0

Edited by imagic - 1/6/13 at 8:00am
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post #184 of 478
1/6/13 at 7:43am
Thread Starter 
I really don't need anything "larger" (in size or output) than what this design will provide. From a pure output perspective they are capable of well over reference, with very little distortion. The drivers alone are capable of handling 1200W program power, each. Midrange should be fantastic, especially with support from my subs. If/when I feel the need to upgrade, I'll probably just add in another 15" and try out a new box and baffle. I'll experiment with the crossover range as well, but I'm thinking 60hz or so should be a good starting point. The box is tuned to 44hz.

So it looks like I've got the box design nailed down.

15" depth gives me 2.72 cubes net including .14cu alllowance for bracing. The slot port works out to be .13cubes in displacement leaving me over 2.5 cubes net in total:

Volume calcuation - before port displacement, since boxnotes does not handle slot ports I had to do that manually:


Cutlist info - this is for all 3 LCR speakers.

Note: Obviously I won't be cutting my own outer baffle since Erich will be provided that. smile.gif I have enough leftover wood to do my horizontal and vertical bracing. smile.gif



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post #185 of 478
1/6/13 at 8:08am
I have not had coffee yet, was up until 3:30 last night listening the 'new' speakers. I didn't catch that you are using a design based on the 15" - that's what caffeine withdrawal does. Your speakers should sound incredible, can't wait to check 'em out.
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post #186 of 478
1/6/13 at 9:44am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

I have not had coffee yet, was up until 3:30 last night listening the 'new' speakers. I didn't catch that you are using a design based on the 15" - that's what caffeine withdrawal does. Your speakers should sound incredible, can't wait to check 'em out.

Hah, no worries man. These should hold off my urge to upgrade the mains for quite a bit I hope.
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post #187 of 478
1/6/13 at 1:52pm
You might find yourself upgrading through amplification instead of speaker components. I just bought a new AVR (HK AVR-1700) with no plans except to run it in stereo, exclusively to power the tweeters. Since CD horns are so sensitive, it actually makes a difference to have a really quiet amp - I can hear the noise floor of pro amps with ease without some sort of attenuation. That's because I'm not using any physical crossovers - strictly DSP. I'm guessing you are going to use hardware crossovers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Hah, no worries man. These should hold off my urge to upgrade the mains for quite a bit I hope.

Edited by imagic - 1/6/13 at 2:28pm
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post #188 of 478
1/6/13 at 4:59pm
Thread Starter 
I'm doing passive crossovers and ordered the parts with the drivers. I don't have any noticeable noise at all with my EP4000 driving the mains now. If you have noise try going through the gain matching process once again. I've got plenty of power on tap so I should be good there as well. If anything I'll add a second EP4000 to power the center as well.
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post #189 of 478
1/6/13 at 5:16pm
I don't hear any noise whatsoever when I hook up my Tweeter through a hardware crossover, but there's really no way for me to get a crossover for this combination. I do enjoy being able to tweak the crossover curves and the crossover point. Re: the noise, it is so faint I can only hear it when my ear is right up against a tweeter. It is a moot point from the listing position. As expected, unplugging the cable line results in total silence. Looks like I could use one of those ground loop hum isolators.
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post #190 of 478
1/6/13 at 5:23pm
Gorilla... Have your heard the Noesis yet? I'm curious to you opinion on them and how your B&C's compare once you have them built. I keep going back and forth between DIY and those each time I hear the amazing reviews there getting. Making the choice that much harder but when I think of the savings it's hard not to do some type of SEOS build.
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post #191 of 478
1/7/13 at 6:14am
Ha, the Noesis 212ht follows the parameters I've found to be key to great sounding mains (and integrated into the Xploders) - dual high-excursion 12" woofers and a horn-loaded tweeter crossed over as low as possible. It's only one flavor of awesome, happens to be my favorite. I'd love to check the Noesis out - if anyone is near Philly and wants to show off a pair, they have got a willing audience right her. I've wondered how the D'apolito array config sounds with this type of combo.

edit - all this talk has had it's usual 'addiction-feeding effect on me. I'm upgrading the Xploders to a quad-12" D'apolito array configuration. Finally, I have speakers that are taller than I am.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

Gorilla... Have your heard the Noesis yet? I'm curious to you opinion on them and how your B&C's compare once you have them built. I keep going back and forth between DIY and those each time I hear the amazing reviews there getting. Making the choice that much harder but when I think of the savings it's hard not to do some type of SEOS build.

Edited by imagic - 1/7/13 at 8:53am
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post #192 of 478
1/7/13 at 8:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

Gorilla... Have your heard the Noesis yet? I'm curious to you opinion on them and how your B&C's compare once you have them built. I keep going back and forth between DIY and those each time I hear the amazing reviews there getting. Making the choice that much harder but when I think of the savings it's hard not to do some type of SEOS build.

We were fortunate to be the first to listen to the Noesis at their debut this past October at our GTG. They are AMAZING speakers. I don't expect my DIY setup to quite compare to them, but it will be interesting to note the differences. We should be able to do that as a group at the April GTG as well. biggrin.gif
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post #193 of 478
1/7/13 at 8:54am
Epic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

We were fortunate to be the first to listen to the Noesis at their debut this past October at our GTG. They are AMAZING speakers. I don't expect my DIY setup to quite compare to them, but it will be interesting to note the differences. We should be able to do that as a group at the April GTG as well. biggrin.gif
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post #194 of 478
1/7/13 at 12:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Ha, the Noesis 212ht follows the parameters I've found to be key to great sounding mains (and integrated into the Xploders) - dual high-excursion 12" woofers and a horn-loaded tweeter crossed over as low as possible. It's only one flavor of awesome, happens to be my favorite. I'd love to check the Noesis out - if anyone is near Philly and wants to show off a pair, they have got a willing audience right her. I've wondered how the D'apolito array config sounds with this type of combo.
edit - all this talk has had it's usual 'addiction-feeding effect on me. I'm upgrading the Xploders to a quad-12" D'apolito array configuration. Finally, I have speakers that are taller than I am.

Last I checked though, you are only using a one-way Compression Driver?
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post #195 of 478
1/7/13 at 12:44pm
That's right... so I have to cross over around 600-700Hz and I have to EQ the upper frequencies. I was drawing a loose comparison - twin 12" with a horn. Besides by this evening I'll have the 4x12" setup running, so that comment was short-lived. If the Noesis are at the GTG, people can make a direct comparison to what I've come up with. Can't wait. Of course I'm always open to considering new things, like an upgraded CD and/or WG.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Last I checked though, you are only using a one-way Compression Driver?

Edited by imagic - 1/7/13 at 12:49pm
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post #196 of 478
1/7/13 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

That's right... so I have to cross over around 600-700Hz and I have to EQ the upper frequencies. I was drawing a loose comparison - twin 12" with a horn. Besides by this evening I'll have the 4x12" setup running, so that comment was short-lived. If the Noesis are at the GTG, people can make a direct comparison to what I've come up with. Can't wait. Of course I'm always open to considering new things, like an upgraded CD and/or WG.

Which CD are you actually using right now? If it is less than a 1.4" exit, I would have a hard time thinking it could hold good directivity down to 6-700hz. Even on the two-way noesis, the lowest the midrange section of the CD goes is 400hz. Look into the BMS coaxials, they are pretty hard on the pocketbook but are some serious dang horns. going to quad 12" should help the low end but your c2c might suffer if you are actually around 700hz XO to those 12's, assuming you are crossing to all the 12's at the same spot. if you are somehow graduating the XO range as you get further from the CD, then you may be able to combat this a little more...
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post #197 of 478
1/7/13 at 1:52pm
Technically it's a B-52, but Selenium makes it for them. It is got a 2" exit. It's rated at 800Hz by B-52.

Selenium rates their 2" exit drivers at 500Hz-600Hz (depending on model) with no crossover. I'm using DSP to cross over. I've opened up the B-52 and the diaphragm has Selenium stamped right on it, as well as the design being identical to some I've seen on parts express. Just satin'. I do find it amusing that my tweeter has a larger diameter voice coil than my subwoofers

I am currently crossing over at 760 Hz because I live in Philly, and be as close to ideal spec as possible. They sound good. I do like their sound crossed at 600Hz, and usually there's only two of us listening. April 13'th I'm lugging 1/4 ton of speaker to Andrew's GTG. It had better sound good.

Here's the stats:

B-52 COMP-3300
2” Exit Titanium Diaphragm Compression Driver
Power Handling: 125 watts
Frequency Response: 800-20K Hz
Voice Coil Diameter: 3”
Nominal Impedance: 16 Ohms
Magnet Structure: 70 oz
Weight: 12 lbs.








Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Which CD are you actually using right now? If it is less than a 1.4" exit, I would have a hard time thinking it could hold good directivity down to 6-700hz. Even on the two-way noesis, the lowest the midrange section of the CD goes is 400hz. Look into the BMS coaxials, they are pretty hard on the pocketbook but are some serious dang horns. going to quad 12" should help the low end but your c2c might suffer if you are actually around 700hz XO to those 12's, assuming you are crossing to all the 12's at the same spot. if you are somehow graduating the XO range as you get further from the CD, then you may be able to combat this a little more...

Edited by imagic - 1/7/13 at 2:34pm
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post #198 of 478
1/7/13 at 2:50pm
It's usually the horn size, not the CD size that determines directivity control afaik.

What's the sensitivity of those xploders? If they're high xmax and any sensitivity I'm surprised they don't break up by 700hz. Did you do your cross over yourself? Why not do a passive one if you have some noise? It would free up a bunch of amps and cabling to.
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post #199 of 478
1/7/13 at 3:27pm
the short answeris quality. a longer answer, they have no actual issue with noise. That horn is pretty large, 22 inches wide of the mouth. dedicated amps means complete control of each driver. I actually chose 760 hz because it is ideal. As for the Sony subs, Sony rates for up to 1000 hz and I believe them. Xmax (6.5mmm) and sensitivity are not so high, it's the sound quality I use them for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

It's usually the horn size, not the CD size that determines directivity control afaik.
What's the sensitivity of those xploders? If they're high xmax and any sensitivity I'm surprised they don't break up by 700hz. Did you do your cross over yourself? Why not do a passive one if you have some noise? It would free up a bunch of amps and cabling to.

Edited by imagic - 1/7/13 at 3:48pm
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post #200 of 478
1/7/13 at 5:21pm
Ok it seemed like your post saying you bought a low noise amp just for the tweeters meant you had some hiss. I have a minidsp but still go passive in the end usually, just to save on all the wires. I personally have never found active means higher quality. And that you have a TMM that isn't a 2-way yet spending money on amp and stuff. Just seems your priorities are off a little. I know 700hz is low, but still.

I'm interested in these xplodes considering their price and easy to find. Did you measure them? Ever used the 10"?
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post #201 of 478
1/7/13 at 6:52pm
There's more to it but I don't want to take up Gorilla's thread discussing these speakers. I'll start a thread to discuss the various ways I have used the Xplods. They have not been formally measured, they do seem to follow the T/S models rather well, so no surprises.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Ok it seemed like your post saying you bought a low noise amp just for the tweeters meant you had some hiss. I have a minidsp but still go passive in the end usually, just to save on all the wires. I personally have never found active means higher quality. And that you have a TMM that isn't a 2-way yet spending money on amp and stuff. Just seems your priorities are off a little. I know 700hz is low, but still.
I'm interested in these xplodes considering their price and easy to find. Did you measure them? Ever used the 10"?
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post #202 of 478
1/8/13 at 10:30am
Rilla, did u consider doing an active crossover?
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post #203 of 478
1/8/13 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Rilla, did u consider doing an active crossover?

Yes, but the main challenge (hassle) for me would be centered around having to use 6 channels of amplification and 2 more mini-dsps to do so for the LCR. smile.gif Fortunately the Sentinel kit comes with the crossover components for a passive setup. If I had to design on my own I would use my minidsp to play with different settings and take measurements and then ultimately purchase the necessary components based on those results.
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post #204 of 478
1/8/13 at 11:13am
If you want an omelet you're gonna have to break some eggs....erm, I mean, bank account.

If I can do it, anyone can do it.
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post #205 of 478
1/8/13 at 12:15pm
Wait, guys, the same principles apply to active cross over design as they do to passive. You can't just thumb some dsp settings and take a measurement at the LP. Well, you can, but it is a waste of good gear. Active or passive, you need to look at the anechoic frequency response of both drivers, on and off axis, and chose cross over positions and slopes for the drivers individually to get a system response.

The measurement at the LP is good data, but doesn't tell you direct sound or driver "issues" that need addressing.

The only thing that makes active easier than passive to design is the tremendous flexibility dsp offers.
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post #206 of 478
1/8/13 at 12:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

If you want an omelet you're gonna have to break some eggs....erm, I mean, bank account.
If I can do it, anyone can do it.

Scott, in my case with this design, I just don't see the added cost/equipment benefit by going active. Sure, maybe when I build something you're doing down the road I will consider such an approach. tongue.gif Besides, my toy fund is beyond tapped for now. I need to sell off some unused gear to recover a bit. frown.gif

In the last 6 months - for some spending perspective:
New projector/screen
New denon 4311
New SHO front stage
New front/side room treatments
New equipment rack(s) and relay boxes
New subs for living room x 2
New basement furniture, drywall, paint
New Dedicated lines x 3
Redesign of basement walls and bar
New dayton dual opposed 4 x 18 build
New Sanway FP14 clone amp
And now....3X B&C 15 kit build

To top it off the wife dropped 10k+ on furniture and bedding last year. That makes me sick to type. frown.gif Funding his hobby as well as my automotive
'problem' has been rough, haha. I need to chill for a while and enjoy it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post

Wait, guys, the same principles apply to active cross over design as they do to passive. You can't just thumb some dsp settings and take a measurement at the LP. Well, you can, but it is a waste of good gear. Active or passive, you need to look at the anechoic frequency response of both drivers, on and off axis, and chose cross over positions and slopes for the drivers individually to get a system response.
The measurement at the LP is good data, but doesn't tell you direct sound or driver "issues" that need addressing.
The only thing that makes active easier than passive to design is the tremendous flexibility dsp offers.

Sorry - I should clarify. When I said take measurements, I meant outside. I have 100+ feet of space behind my house unobstructed and was planning to use it to take my own measurements for help in designing a crossover. Either way it doesn't matter for me in this case as I'm using the kit components.

Fortunately, for my project you guys have already done the hard work. biggrin.gif
Edited by Gorilla83 - 1/8/13 at 12:26pm
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post #207 of 478
1/8/13 at 12:25pm
Ok cool. I was just getting that sense in this thread that active solves all problems, which it doesn't. I think mtg90 did a bang up job with the sentinel so you'll be quite pleased smile.gif
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post #208 of 478
1/10/13 at 11:58am
Thread Starter 
Got confirmation that my 'goods' are ready for shipment! Stay tuned for sawdust pics. biggrin.gif
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post #209 of 478
1/12/13 at 5:11pm
Thread Starter 
OK - made some decent headway today in between helping my buddy out with his car.

2 of my drivers and all 3 of my front baffles arrived this morning. The compression drivers, waveguides, and other driver will be arriving shortly. biggrin.gif

Checklist:

-Made all cuts aka "flatpacks" for all 3 speaks. I was forced to use MDF as HD didn't have my normal cabinet grade ply this time. Oh well, at least it will match the baffle now. I forgot how NASTY MDF dust is. Ugh. I was able to set up my new tablesaw santa brought me. I made the big cuts at HD then brought the small stuff home. This saw combined with my tracksaw is a great combo and makes the jobs much easier.

-Started assembling the first speaker (bottom/sides) and dry fit the rest of the panels. I also tried out my brad nailer for the first time. This makes things much easier! Wish I had used this before.

-Traced inner baffle cut marks from outer baffles.

-Cut up bracing (horizontal and slot port bracing) and came up with a window bracing scheme that I liked. I found a use for my router edge guide finally - it should come out pretty nice! Pictures coming of this tomorrow.

Man, check out these B&C woofs. AWESOME looking, super high qualtiy. I think I had underestimated these at first. 7mm excursion, high power handling (1100w program), 3" voice coil, great looking pole ventilation, etc. These are going to be pure beasts. I was also talking to Erich about the crossover components - which also seem to be far exceeding my expectations.

Without further delay, some wood/speaker porn:




OH - Must be Italian or something? FRA-GEE-LAY




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post #210 of 478
1/12/13 at 5:16pm
Very nice!
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