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High output, multiple driver DIY main recommendations? - Page 2

post #31 of 538
Yeah that would be the one I used. We were looking for something around the $200 price range and that one was the best fit.

JBL added to graph:


They both have about the same displacement so they will be close on max SPL down low. Though I found while listening to them the JBL is a hair more sensitive but does not extend as deep as the B&C.
Edited by mtg90 - 12/28/12 at 8:41pm
post #32 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

Yeah that would be the one I used. We were looking for something around the $200 price range and that one was the best fit.
JBL added to graph:

The both have about the same displacement so in the same enclosure they will be close on max SPL down low. Though I found while listening to them the JBL is a hair more sensitive but does not extend as deep as the B&C.

thank you.
which one if any do you like better as far as the sound quality is concerned?
do you personally see any reason to go with 15" instead of 12" drivers?
post #33 of 538
I thought the JBL sounded slightly cleaner in the midrange but that could have been my ears tricking me, they did sound unbelievably close. When I measured them the JBL had slightly lower distortion, but the B&C measured a little better as you went off axis. For me the extra extension of the B&C design stood out the most while listening and I tend to like more bass when I can get it.

The extra headroom in the bass and midbass would be one advantage. Someone could use a 50hz crossover between the 15" mains and uber subs and not worry about running into their limits as you might with a 12" which would need to be crossed higher. The other would be that directivity control with a 15" would extend a little lower then that of a 12". How noticeable that would be I am not sure.

I think for most people a 12" is plenty though there sure are a lot of people that don't fall into the most people category on this forum. smile.gif
post #34 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I think for most people a 12" is plenty though there sure are a lot of people that don't fall into the most people category on this forum. smile.gif
LOL
post #35 of 538
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I thought the JBL sounded slightly cleaner in the midrange but that could have been my ears tricking me, they did sound unbelievably close. When I measured them the JBL had slightly lower distortion, but the B&C measured a little better as you went off axis. For me the extra extension of the B&C design stood out the most while listening and I tend to like more bass when I can get it.
The extra headroom in the bass and midbass would be one advantage. Someone could use a 50hz crossover between the 15" mains and uber subs and not worry about running into their limits as you might with a 12" which would need to be crossed higher. The other would be that directivity control with a 15" would extend a little lower then that of a 12". How noticeable that would be I am not sure.
I think for most people a 12" is plenty though there sure are a lot of people that don't fall into the most people category on this forum. smile.gif

Thanks for all the input MTG90, much appreciated here. I'm very interested in the JBL 2226H, the B&C driver, the TD12M, and the TD15M.

Here are my thoughts so far: The JBL's even used are slightly more expensive than a NEW B&C driver in the kit from you guys. They do have a bit larger voicecoil (4" vs.3") but I'm not sure that's really going to matter in my application. For what it's worth I like the looks of the B&C driver better. The AE drivers seem a bit hard to get a hold of and they are of course about 1/3 more expensive than the B&C or used JBL drivers.

Let me try some modeling of my own - all in a 2.5 cu foot sealed enclosure - first max SPL capability. TD12M vs. TD15M vs. B&C 15PS76. This info may change if we look at ported but this is apples to apples. EDIT - I will being modeling in ported as well and see how that looks since I will likely go that route to lower extension a bit beyond my planned crossover point.



And with 450 watts applied to each:



It doesn't seem like there is a drastic (audible) difference in output to me between these drivers. Of course I'm only looking at SPL assuming that most of these drivers will primarily "sound" the same to me under max SPL capability. I will be using either the SEOS12/DNA360 or SEOS15/DNA360 with whatever I wind up choosing.

If I'm missing something obvious (likely as I'm new at this) please point it out! smile.gif

TIA.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 12/29/12 at 6:57am
post #36 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

The top half of that setup is very appealing to me. Is this a big advantage of the td15m over the td12m? The prices are almost the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

do you personally see any reason to go with 15" instead of 12" drivers?

The TD15 uses a curvilinear cone whereas the other TD drivers use a straight cone. This results in a smoother and more extended frequency response. Somewhere on here, John J. - the builder of the TD speakers, states, the 15" is the best sounding of all the drivers. With a lot of searching, I can find his quote somewhere on here.
post #37 of 538
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I thought the JBL sounded slightly cleaner in the midrange but that could have been my ears tricking me, they did sound unbelievably close. When I measured them the JBL had slightly lower distortion, but the B&C measured a little better as you went off axis. For me the extra extension of the B&C design stood out the most while listening and I tend to like more bass when I can get it.
The extra headroom in the bass and midbass would be one advantage. Someone could use a 50hz crossover between the 15" mains and uber subs and not worry about running into their limits as you might with a 12" which would need to be crossed higher. The other would be that directivity control with a 15" would extend a little lower then that of a 12". How noticeable that would be I am not sure.
I think for most people a 12" is plenty though there sure are a lot of people that don't fall into the most people category on this forum. smile.gif

BTW Matt what port sizes / tuning points are you recommending for the B&C 15" combo? For the TD12M?

Thanks again.
post #38 of 538
Just my opinion, but once you jump up to the 15" models for home theater use, there isn't much reason to debate sound quality or max volume with the SEOS models because they will all use good woofers. Any of the 15's will easily overpower the room, and any difference in sound quality will likely only be noticed with a computer mic. At that point, it really depends on what brand woofer you personally like and if you want to spend that extra money. MTG-90 and I went back and forth for over a month on which 15" model to use. That B&C model pretty much nails the price point we were shooting for while delivering near max performance with a single woofer set up.

Trust me, I fully understand the need for overkill. But I'm not sure everyone realizes just how loud and clean these SEOS speakers actually are. Especially when crossing to a subwoofer system.

I heard Bwaslo's 15" A&E speaker that used the SEOS-15 and DNA-360 compression driver. He took it up to some pretty high levels for home use and the woofer was barely even moving. Crossed to a subwoofer, I don't think you would ever come close to using 70% of their full potential in a home environment. So the difference between any of the higher end 15's probably won't even show up. You like JBL, get it. You like A&E or B&C, get those. But there would be no reason to second guess any of them for their intended use. I would however second guess buying a used woofer off Ebay just to lower the price of a speaker that will sound as good as the same priced new B&C.
Edited by Erich H - 12/29/12 at 9:36am
post #39 of 538
I used the B&C in a 2.5 cuft box with three 3" diameter by 6" long ports which puts tuning at about 53hz. Plug one port and you get 43hz tuning, plug two and its 30hz. (Note this is using my measured T/S specs for the B&C, the published specs look a little different when modeling but when looking at spl they are pretty much equal below 120hz)


For a ported enclosure I think the TD12M looks good in a 1.5 cuft box with three 2.5" diameter 5" long ports, with that same port plugging idea you get 63hz, 50hz and 36hz tuning points.
post #40 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Copy the design I'm working on, Gorilla.

Scott,

I've got 3 of the high end JBL 18's. Have you given any thought of wiping out that bottom row of 15's and putting three 18's in their place ? That would be pretty sweet. biggrin.gif

Are you waiting on any parts for your build, or do you have everything? If you haven't bought the top horns and CD's, I could ship you a pair to try out.
post #41 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber View Post

The TD15 uses a curvilinear cone whereas the other TD drivers use a straight cone. This results in a smoother and more extended frequency response. Somewhere on here, John J. - the builder of the TD speakers, states, the 15" is the best sounding of all the drivers. With a lot of searching, I can find his quote somewhere on here.
Interesting. I think AE 12" is also slightly less efficient than the 15" one.
post #42 of 538
as far as the looks, the B&C would be my preference. Luckily the looks are not important in my case, the L/C/R are hidden behind the screen.
post #43 of 538
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I used the B&C in a 2.5 cuft box with three 3" diameter by 6" long ports which puts tuning at about 53hz. Plug one port and you get 43hz tuning, plug two and its 30hz. (Note this is using my measured T/S specs for the B&C, the published specs look a little different when modeling but when looking at spl they are pretty much equal below 120hz)

For a ported enclosure I think the TD12M looks good in a 1.5 cuft box with three 2.5" diameter 5" long ports, with that same port plugging idea you get 63hz, 50hz and 36hz tuning points.

Thank you. The B&C seems very appealing so far. A 53hz tune would be plenty and allow me to cross over around 60hz (1st order) without an issue, correct? The crossover components that are included with the Sentinel kit - what are the details there? Thanks again.

Andrew
post #44 of 538
Well Rilla, once it bites you, it really bites you huh?!?!? Sounds like you will end up with some killer mains to go with the Silverbacks! I will be watching.
post #45 of 538
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post

Crossed to a subwoofer, I don't think you would ever come close to using 70% of their full potential in a home environment. So the difference between any of the higher end 15's probably won't even show up. You like JBL, get it. You like A&E or B&C, get those. But there would be no reason to second guess any of them for their intended use. I would however second guess buying a used woofer off Ebay just to lower the price of a speaker that will sound as good as the same priced new B&C.

I am in full agreement here. I doubt I'd notice a substantial (if any) difference between the 15" models. Do you have all of the B&C kit components ready to ship?


All - I finally got my EP4000 hooked up to my SHOs, leveled matched again, and did some quick listening tests. Up until 0 or +2 it sounded pretty much identical to my Denon powering them. No noticeable difference in midbass, sound quality, or anything else. When I really got cranking in the +10 to +15 levels I didn't notice any distortion! They simply played clean and loud! cool.gif Loud to the point where it hurts.

With that in mind, is there a real 'need' to upgrade to something like the 15" B&C setup? It would for sure be a massive step up but what am I going to gain? Midbass is taken care of PLENTY by the subs. Obviously I would have a bit more SPL capability, although that headroom wouldn't get used other than the 'demo' situations. Wider soundstage? Better imaging?

Thanks all.
post #46 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post


All - I finally got my EP4000 hooked up to my SHOs, leveled matched again, and did some quick listening tests. Up until 0 or +2 it sounded pretty much identical to my Denon powering them. No noticeable difference in midbass, sound quality, or anything else. When I really got cranking in the +10 to +15 levels I didn't notice any distortion! They simply played clean and loud! cool.gif Loud to the point where it hurts.
very interesting. i assume you ran audyssey set up again once you had the new amps in the chain?
stating the obvious, SPL is not everything. You will no doubt get better SQ with SEOS.
Edited by zheka - 12/29/12 at 1:42pm
post #47 of 538
I think Erich has everything for that kit ready.


One big advantage is the directivity control from the SEOS waveguide allowing for a smooth transition over to the woofer. The SHO-10 uses a rather small waveguide which probably loses pattern control well above the 1600hz crossover point. This leads to an uneven off axis response where the woofer transitions over to the waveguide. One side effect is that you cannot toe the speakers in and achieve even coverage of both frequency response and SPL across all seats. Another is any off axis reflections will be the uneven response and therefore have a different timber then that of the direct sound. Being able to toe in the speakers also helps to reduce the intensity of the first sidewall reflections.

So what do you get from a constant directivity design? More even coverage, better imaging and greater clarity.
post #48 of 538
if you don't go nuts and build a full active horn loaded mid like scott...

build this:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=141.0

seos/dna360/2226h version of the 4pi.
post #49 of 538
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

if you don't go nuts and build a full active horn loaded mid like scott...
build this:
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/forum/index.php?topic=141.0
seos/dna360/2226h version of the 4pi.

The b&c setup appears to have very similar results as the 2226h and is available new from Erich = win IMO. As of now this setup is in the lead for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

very interesting. i assume you ran audyssey set up again once you had the new amps in the chain?
stating the obvious, SPL is not everything. You will no doubt get better SQ with SEOS.

No need to run audyssey again. The results are never exactly repeatable anyway. Level matching was done but only a small adjustment was needed anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I think Erich has everything for that kit ready.
One big advantage is the directivity control from the SEOS waveguide allowing for a smooth transition over to the woofer. The SHO-10 uses a rather small waveguide which probably loses pattern control well above the 1600hz crossover point. This leads to an uneven off axis response where the woofer transitions over to the waveguide. One side effect is that you cannot toe the speakers in and achieve even coverage of both frequency response and SPL across all seats. Another is any off axis reflections will be the uneven response and therefore have a different timber then that of the direct sound. Being able to toe in the speakers also helps to reduce the intensity of the first sidewall reflections.
So what do you get from a constant directivity design? More even coverage, better imaging and greater clarity.

Good to know. One more question - due to my screen height my center will have to be placed horizontally. Will that be an issue with the standard layout of the baffle in the kit?
post #50 of 538
The B&C 15" model is ready to go, I just haven't taken the latest picture that shows all the crossover parts yet. They are included with the kit.

How much room do you have for the center channel? Maybe you could make a shorter box and move the ports to the side versus the front.
post #51 of 538
Gorilla83, I agree with everything you stated about the B & C, vs td15, vs 2226h, except.

"The JBL's even used are slightly more expensive than a NEW B&C driver in the kit from you guys"

B&C brand new is 300ish dollars ( and if your Canadian throw shipping price and it skyrockets to 400+).
Unless Erich dropped the price a bunch with the kit....

I bought all of my 2226's for under 200, and one I won an auction for 140, that's less then half price. All in a couple weeks time.
All 3 of the designs look dynamite but if you can find the drivers that cheap it's no contest which one wins price vs performance.
post #52 of 538
Here's an idea. Since your saving all this cash on your fronts, how about a false wall and an AT screen? Then you could just put the center right behind the screen. Heck you could hide almost everything.
post #53 of 538
mtg, where is the woofer crossed over in the 2226 design? just wondering what causes that little bit of bunching up off axis.
post #54 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thatsnasty View Post

Gorilla83, I agree with everything you stated about the B & C, vs td15, vs 2226h, except.
"The JBL's even used are slightly more expensive than a NEW B&C driver in the kit from you guys"
B&C brand new is 300ish dollars ( and if your Canadian throw shipping price and it skyrockets to 400+).
Unless Erich dropped the price a bunch with the kit....
I bought all of my 2226's for under 200, and one I won an auction for 140, that's less then half price. All in a couple weeks time.
All 3 of the designs look dynamite but if you can find the drivers that cheap it's no contest which one wins price vs performance.

B&C 15PS76 = $191.27 shipped
post #55 of 538
"The b&c setup appears to have very similar results as the 2226h..."

the 15ps76 does not appear to have any shorting rings in the motor, while the jbl does.

side by side, i would expect the 2226h to outperform the ps76 in the midrange.

i believe that geddess chose the tbx100 for his summa for that reason.

also, fwiw, the ps76 is no longer listed on b&c's website. appears to be discontinued?
post #56 of 538
Both the 2226H and 15PS76 are crossed around 1100hz. My guess was that the pattern on the JBL starts to narrow a little sooner then that of the B&C which causes that little dip you see just below the crossover. I think using the SEOS-15 would fix that but it would most likely need a different crossover.
post #57 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The b&c setup appears to have very similar results as the 2226h..."
the 15ps76 does not appear to have any shorting rings in the motor, while the jbl does.
side by side, i would expect the 2226h to outperform the ps76 in the midrange.
i believe that geddess chose the tbx100 for his summa for that reason.
also, fwiw, the ps76 is no longer listed on b&c's website. appears to be discontinued?

I thought it was the 15tbx100 used in this design?
edit: nevermind, whoa i'm blind!
That bring things quite a bit down in pricing!
post #58 of 538
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

"The b&c setup appears to have very similar results as the 2226h..."
the 15ps76 does not appear to have any shorting rings in the motor, while the jbl does.
side by side, i would expect the 2226h to outperform the ps76 in the midrange.
i believe that geddess chose the tbx100 for his summa for that reason.
also, fwiw, the ps76 is no longer listed on b&c's website. appears to be discontinued?

That looks to be correct -- it's listed in the archive -- "These products are no longer in the catalogue, but are still in production, and available by special request."
Looks like the FW76 is it's replacement (with demodulating ring now).
post #59 of 538
"Both the 2226H and 15PS76 are crossed around 1100hz."

thanks, and...good choice. i'm glad that you kept it relatively low.
post #60 of 538
The 15FW76 does look nice. Must not have been out long I only found one place that carries them, looks to cost just a bit more then $220. If PE had them that probably would have been the woofer to be used in this design. Maybe after a while see if PE drops the 15PS76 and picks up the FW and then update the design to use them.
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