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High output, multiple driver DIY main recommendations? - Page 15

post #421 of 526
2/5/13 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

MK,

what's that low row of woofers in the picture? are those an open baffle mount?

I am guessing they are sono tubes laying down.
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post #422 of 526
2/5/13 at 7:11pm
Yes, they were 8 sealed sonos. 4 firing forward and 4 in the corners firing up and down.
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post #423 of 526
2/5/13 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I had a chance to rerun Audyssey tonight after the crossovers were updated. Guys they are sounding AWESOME! I played a bit with placement using the omnimic as a guide to reduce nulls and peaks as much as feasible. I listened to a few of my test tracks and they sound by far the best I've owned so far. Incredible clarity and dynamics overall, can't wait to listen more this weekend.

Also got a few coats on my speaker stands as well - they will be installed tomorrow night. I also made a small wedge to tilt the center up.


awesome dude. Doorstops coated in duratex (the rubber ones) make great angle lifters. Just ask Purebeast


What exactly did you change about the xovers? better components? Tweak the roll-off?
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post #424 of 526
2/5/13 at 9:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

awesome dude. Doorstops coated in duratex (the rubber ones) make great angle lifters. Just ask Purebeast


What exactly did you change about the xovers? better components? Tweak the roll-off?

I got my new replacement UMM-6 mic and was measuring my designs with it when I noticed a few things that I felt needed a little adjustement within the Sentinel's crossover. The changes just bring phase between the CD and woofer into better allignment and a adjust some shaping on the CD near the crossover to flatten it out a little.
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post #425 of 526
2/6/13 at 1:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

I had a chance to rerun Audyssey tonight after the crossovers were updated. Guys they are sounding AWESOME! I played a bit with placement using the omnimic as a guide to reduce nulls and peaks as much as feasible. I listened to a few of my test tracks and they sound by far the best I've owned so far. Incredible clarity and dynamics overall, can't wait to listen more this weekend.

Great to hear man!

You had enough time with them yet to determine if the XO component swap was worth the hassel?
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post #426 of 526
2/6/13 at 4:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibuna View Post

awesome dude. Doorstops coated in duratex (the rubber ones) make great angle lifters. Just ask Purebeast
What exactly did you change about the xovers? better components? Tweak the roll-off?

I think Matt took care of this response below. smile.gif I changed out a resistor and added a few capacitors.

I walked Purbeast through his speaker stand build, I thought they turned out nice!

As for my wedge for the center, I just made something out of extra wood I had laying around that spans the width of the speaker. cool.gif


Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Great to hear man!

You had enough time with them yet to determine if the XO component swap was worth the hassel?

Well, between playing with L&R as well as LP placement (I actually moved the couch up about 2 feet to drastically reduce 2-3 big nulls), re-running Audyssey, and the crossover mods there is a substantial difference. I also replaced my Definitive surrounds with the CHT SHO-10s but haven't really listened to any movie clips just yet.

I also got rid of a weird phase issue that Audyssey was kicking out for the center channel.
Edited by Gorilla83 - 2/6/13 at 4:52am
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post #427 of 526
2/6/13 at 4:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

I got my new replacement UMM-6 mic and was measuring my designs with it when I noticed a few things that I felt needed a little adjustement within the Sentinel's crossover. The changes just bring phase between the CD and woofer into better allignment and a adjust some shaping on the CD near the crossover to flatten it out a little.

Matt - Like I said above between placement and the crossover mods they sound significantly better than before. By far my favorite Home Theater oriented speaker I've owned so far - and I've owned probably 20 sets?

BTW if anyone is close by and is curious, you've got to hear these!
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post #428 of 526
2/6/13 at 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Matt - Like I said above between placement and the crossover mods they sound significantly better than before. By far my favorite Home Theater oriented speaker I've owned so far - and I've owned probably 20 sets?

BTW if anyone is close by and is curious, you've got to hear these!

What are some of the other home theater speaker setups that you have owned?
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post #429 of 526
2/6/13 at 5:39am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

What are some of the other home theater speaker setups that you have owned?

Just going off memory - a few of the recents with in the past ~6 years or so:

Klipsch Reference RF35's and matching center/surrounds
CHT SHO-10s
Magnepan MMGs
Martin Logan Electrostatics - various (3 different sets Clarity, Request, Prodigy)
Definitive Technology Bipolars - MANY (3000TLs, 7002s, 2002s, BP30s)
Bose Acoustimass 15 (I know, LOL - They were CHEAP on CL and I bought to try them)
RCA Higher end set with 360 degree Linoleum tweets

I REALLY love the electrostatic sound, but they can't play nearly as loud or anywhere near as efficient as the controlled directivity designs. They also have a tiny sweetspot in comparison.
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post #430 of 526
2/6/13 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

What are some of the other home theater speaker setups that you have owned?

Rilla elaborated his speaker history in this thread.

Speaker Ownership - Your Path to Satisfaction

BTW. I think an update is in order...

biggrin.gif
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post #431 of 526
2/6/13 at 8:38am
Yea, how did you see the shading issue and the other stuff just looking at your response graphs?
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post #432 of 526
2/6/13 at 9:42am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Yea, how did you see the shading issue and the other stuff just looking at your response graphs?

Matt identified the initial issues when taking his own measurements. He saw some response issues around the crossover point which have been cleaned up.

I've still got some dips/peaks up top that I'll have to figure out with treatment.
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post #433 of 526
2/7/13 at 8:53am
Thread Starter 
Got the L&Rs up on their stands last night and inserted the small wedge under the center. I think they look pretty nice - I may double up on the wedge for the center, but that's a super quick job. cool.gif

Some crappy cell phone pics - the lighting is very tough with the black background and no overhead lighting so I apologize. tongue.gif


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post #434 of 526
2/7/13 at 9:17am
Those look really good gorilla
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post #435 of 526
2/7/13 at 9:18am
Grills, I am dying to hear how you think the BP-30's from Definitive Technology compares to the Seos that you built?? I currently have BP-30's and am having a very difficult time deciding on whether or not to replace them with either Soes, Corn-Scalas or Statements. Could you please do some compare & contrasting of the Soes and BP-30's?
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post #436 of 526
2/7/13 at 11:41am
Gorilla83,

Congrats on a cool build! Looking myself to build or buy HT speakers, feeling very undecisive at this point. Already built two LLT subs with 18" Maelströms (no longer for sale).

I have to admit the design doesn't struck me as very sophisticated, but you mentioning the speakers you owned before is very telling. I checked the DIY Sound Group web space and the specs are mouth watering... Price is right also!
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion15-kit.html

So, they play plenty loud (and then some). One thing I wonder: is the 15 inch not making the baffle to wide and is it's midrange capability as good as a "normal" midrange (4" to 6")? I mean, isn't the sheer size of the thing counter productive for midrange? Or is the very low crossover point key?
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post #437 of 526
2/7/13 at 12:44pm
Quote:
I mean, isn't the sheer size of the thing counter productive for midrange? Or is the very low crossover point key?

This is part of it, and starting with a quality woofer that is very efficient is the other part.
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post #438 of 526
2/7/13 at 1:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

Those look really good gorilla

Thank you sir. I will try to get some better pictures either tonight or this weekend. This S@@ I put up so far does them no justice. I know Erich needs some good material for his site, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post

Grills, I am dying to hear how you think the BP-30's from Definitive Technology compares to the Seos that you built?? I currently have BP-30's and am having a very difficult time deciding on whether or not to replace them with either Soes, Corn-Scalas or Statements. Could you please do some compare & contrasting of the Soes and BP-30's?

Responded to your PM with my thoughts, but I'll highlight here too:

I really do like the bipolar sound for a change. I won't be selling off my Deftech stuff for now. I picked up the BP30's for ~350 for Craigs, a pretty awesome buy for a near-mint pair of them. With some good power behind them, they extend low and have a great soundstage.

For traditional HT use, I vastly prefer the SEOS setup. Well, actually for music I prefer them overall too. Granted, they are a lot more expensive, and more work, but well worth it. There are obviously directivity, sensitivity, and clarity advantages to this design as well. i would definitely recommend them if you're looking to upgrade from the DT setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

Gorilla83,

Congrats on a cool build! Looking myself to build or buy HT speakers, feeling very undecisive at this point. Already built two LLT subs with 18" Maelströms (no longer for sale).

I have to admit the design doesn't struck me as very sophisticated, but you mentioning the speakers you owned before is very telling. I checked the DIY Sound Group web space and the specs are mouth watering... Price is right also!
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/waveguide-speaker-kits/fusion15-kit.html

So, they play plenty loud (and then some). One thing I wonder: is the 15 inch not making the baffle to wide and is it's midrange capability as good as a "normal" midrange (4" to 6")? I mean, isn't the sheer size of the thing counter productive for midrange? Or is the very low crossover point key?

Can't beat the performance vs. price for this design. Not really sure what you're asking about the width of the baffle having to do with midrange capability though? Could you elaborate? Are you referring to sheer size of the 15" driver being able to accurately reproduce midrange frequencies?
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post #439 of 526
2/7/13 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Can't beat the performance vs. price for this design. Not really sure what you're asking about the width of the baffle having to do with midrange capability though? Could you elaborate? Are you referring to sheer size of the 15" driver being able to accurately reproduce midrange frequencies?

Stab in the dark... Our friend is coming from the car audio world. As most of have....

tongue.gif

Man, back in my car audio days the thought of using a 15" or 18" as a mid / mid-bass driver would have caused my head to explode.
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post #440 of 526
2/7/13 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Stab in the dark... Our friend is coming from the car audio world. As most of have....

tongue.gif

Man, back in my car audio days the thought of using a 15" or 18" as a mid / mid-bass driver would have caused my head to explode.

Lol, I remember my first 8" midbass driver. I trashed it because it was "too big" for me at the time and took up too much floorboard space (see avatar...)I also retrofitted my q-forms to make it work, so it looked goofy.
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post #441 of 526
2/8/13 at 11:10am
Quote: Can't beat the performance vs. price for this design. Not really sure what you're asking about the width of the baffle having to do with midrange capability though? Could you elaborate? Are you referring to sheer size of the 15" driver being able to accurately reproduce midrange frequencies?

Two things:

*In a threeway, the dedicated midrange is usualy smaller than the woofers, mostly 4" or 5" and sometimes a different kind (like the fixed suspension type with kevlar B&W uses)

*Many speakers designers try to make the front baffle as narrow as possible to improve imaging and to widen the listening angle. Sometimes they use 2 smaller bass woofers to keep the baffle narrow. Or they put the big woofer on the side of the cabin (in a three way ofcourse)
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post #442 of 526
2/8/13 at 11:33am
Bottom line is you arent going to be able to reproduce high level output in the midrange passband with a single 4 or 5" woofer. Yes, they might work quite well at moderate music listening levels on the BW speakers, but they certainly won't do reference level well on some of the big movies...
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post #443 of 526
2/8/13 at 11:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Bottom line is you arent going to be able to reproduce high level output in the midrange passband with a single 4 or 5" woofer. Yes, they might work quite well at moderate music listening levels on the BW speakers, but they certainly won't do reference level well on some of the big movies...

Nope, but that's why most mfg's use multiples. No one's recommending running a single 5" woofer, but when you combine them you are looking at 8 and 9" drivers.
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post #444 of 526
2/8/13 at 12:07pm
Well that particular BW doesn't, but I will retract a little of my comment. Reference can be had with a single unit that size, but depending on your listening distance, it might not be enough. If you are inside 6 feet, you would probably be ok.
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post #445 of 526
2/8/13 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post
Nope, but that's why most mfg's use multiples. No one's recommending running a single 5" woofer, but when you combine them you are looking at 8 and 9" drivers.

If you just want to look at diameter and area...

2 x 5.25" = 43" area

1 x 7"      = 40" area

3 x 5.25" = 65" area

2 x 6.5"   = 66" area

1 x 10"    = 79" area

1 x 12"  = 113" area

1 x 15"  = 177" area

 

It's amazing how many smaller drivers it takes to equal the larger ones!

 

Of course the entire pistonic volume is what matters, but I think as you raise Xmax up you're going to require more exotic/expensive driver designs to maintain linear action over that large Xmax? And give up sensitivity too, requiring larger amps.

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post #446 of 526
2/8/13 at 12:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyleron View Post

If you just want to look at diameter and area...
2 x 5.25" = 43" area
1 x 7"      = 40" area
3 x 5.25" = 65" area
2 x 6.5"   = 66" area
1 x 10"    = 79" area
1 x 12"  = 113" area
1 x 15"  = 177" area

It's amazing how many smaller drivers it takes to equal the larger ones!

Of course the entire pistonic volume is what matters, but I think as you raise Xmax up you're going to require more exotic/expensive driver designs to maintain linear action over that large Xmax? And give up sensitivity too, requiring larger amps.

My point was in reference to the comment of trying to keep the baffle as narrow as possible while increasing driver surface area. I wouldn't expect anyone to necessarily substitute 1 15" driver for 8 5.25" ones. wink.gif
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post #447 of 526
2/8/13 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

My point was in reference to the comment of trying to keep the baffle as narrow as possible while increasing driver surface area. I wouldn't expect anyone to necessarily substitute 1 15" driver for 8 5.25" ones. wink.gif

Why not? That is exactly what the LS6 does biggrin.gif and it rocks!! haha.
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post #448 of 526
2/8/13 at 6:31pm
I am by no means an expert in speaker design, but my understanding is the drive to narrow front baffles was more about aesthetics and cost savings than performance. There was a recent review of DeVore Fidelity in stereophile that discussed the value of wide baffles.
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post #449 of 526
2/8/13 at 6:39pm
Thread Starter 
Guys the more I listen to these the better I like them. I've left them in full range for now and ran threw several tracks in a blast session this evening. Tried everything from acoustical tracks to metallica to master and commander clips on the blu ray demo disc. Awesome! Watching some Netflix now at more normal volumes and just enjoying the clarity.

Ive also discovered it's far too easy to make your ears ring. I have no worries about putting off any 'upgrades' to the front stage for now.

Couldn't be happier with these considering the price. Thanks again Erich and Matt! Highly Gorilla recommended.
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post #450 of 526
2/9/13 at 5:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorilla83 View Post

Guys the more I listen to these the better I like them. I've left them in full range for now and ran threw several tracks in a blast session this evening. Tried everything from acoustical tracks to metallica to master and commander clips on the blu ray demo disc. Awesome! Watching some Netflix now at more normal volumes and just enjoying the clarity.

Ive also discovered it's far too easy to make your ears ring. I have no worries about putting off any 'upgrades' to the front stage for now.

Couldn't be happier with these considering the price. Thanks again Erich and Matt! Highly Gorilla recommended.

Nice to hear Andrew! I actually spent a bunch of time listening to them last night while I wa son the forum and researching. It really is amazing what they can do for $400! I said it in my thread and on diysound, but I auditioned the B&W CT8.4, the "budget" speaker of the top cinema line. It was weeks ago, and audio memory sucks, but I will say this. When listening, I try to catalogue my feelings in my head, so that once the sound is gone, I have an idea of what I was thinking....at no point when listening to the Sentinels did I think I should have bought the CTs. To me, that says a ton. A $3k a piece speaker with 500w, and it didnt' have the movie sound that the Sentinels do! I can't speak for music because I admittedly haven't listened to much on them, but for movies I agree with you 100%.
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