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CES 2013 - Page 5  

post #121 of 412
SEOUL, Jan. 5, 2013 -– LG Electronics (LG) will display its new Ultra HD TV lineup at CES 2013 in Las Vegas. The original 84-inch Ultra HD TV will be complemented by 55- and 65-inch screen models. The new sizes offer the same stellar resolution and immersiveviewing experience as LG’s 84-inch Ultra HD TV

http://lgnewsroom.com/newsroom/contents/62814
post #122 of 412
Panasonic:

Besides the press release about collaboration (to whatever extent) with Sony, the only thing I see that strongly sticks out about Panasonic is that they're moving their entire 3D-LED line to passive this time, and not having a mix. Is there anything else yet?
post #123 of 412
Thread Starter 
So LG has a 65 inch OLED set on display at CES.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/lg-55-inch-12000/

"LG just gave a price to its entry level 55-inch OLED TV: $12,000. That's the starting price, mind you. There are three different OLED sizes to choose from, but we're only seeing 55- and 65-inchers -- no word on pricing for the larger set, but we'd wager it'll be a pretty penny over that initial $12K."

.............................................................................................................................

Since they did not even talk about their reduced Plasma 2013 line, I expect that this is the last year that they will make them. I guess there would be no point in doing so, once they started shipping OLED sets.
post #124 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

So LG has a 65 inch OLED set on display at CES.

I doubt it. It is more likely that the Engadget reporter is confusing the 3 Ultra HD TV's (55", 65", 84") that LG announced with the OLED TV (55").
post #125 of 412
Panasonic shows off Touch Pen for annotating images on your Smart TV

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/panasonic-announces-touch-pen/




Panasonic details sixteen new LED TVs for the new year, none larger than 55 inches

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/panasonic-details-sixteen-new-led-tvs-for-the-new-year-none-lar/
post #126 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferro View Post

I doubt it. It is more likely that the Engadget reporter is confusing the 3 Ultra HD TV's (55", 65", 84") that LG announced with the OLED TV (55").

I'm pretty sure that's correct.

There is no other report of any other size of OLED TV.
post #127 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Back at the end of 2011, Apple filed a patent that allows an opacity switching layer. It uses that idea slightly differently, A solid white back for white pixels, the opacity switching layer to provide black, and then the transparent OLED on top. Take away the backing white, and you have your basic transparent OLED with black.
http://www.oled-info.com/new-apple-patent-describes-transparent-oled-solid-background-new-oled-iphone-rumors-emerge
I don't like the patent's artwork, but here it is anyway:

What's the "black" made from?

OLED material is transparent by nature. You can't "switch on" a black layer. The only reason OLED displays work is because there's a dark substrate behind them. If you have a transparent display, you by nature take that away.

The only way you could "fix" this with a TV is with something like an LCD or e-ink layer behind the OLED layer that would be semi-transparent, otherwise you're back to "wall color" on the off mode. You can't have "on black" with OLED no matter what you do. It's emissive period. I don't know what Apple's patent includes, perhaps it imagines some layer that doesn't exist yet? But practical transparent TVs that disappear don't seem realistic unless people want space to be white, yellow, blue, red or whatever color their family room is. Not just space, really night....
post #128 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm 
Back at the end of 2011, Apple filed a patent that allows an opacity switching layer. It uses that idea slightly differently, A solid white back for white pixels, the opacity switching layer to provide black, and then the transparent OLED on top. Take away the backing white, and you have your basic transparent OLED with black.
http://www.oled-info.com/new-apple-patent-describes-transparent-oled-solid-background-new-oled-iphone-rumors-emerge
I don't like the patent's artwork, but here it is anyway:

What's the "black" made from?
OLED material is transparent by nature. You can't "switch on" a black layer. The only reason OLED displays work is because there's a dark substrate behind them. If you have a transparent display, you by nature take that away.
The only way you could "fix" this with a TV is with something like an LCD or e-ink layer behind the OLED layer that would be semi-transparent, otherwise you're back to "wall color" on the off mode. You can't have "on black" with OLED no matter what you do. It's emissive period. I don't know what Apple's patent includes, perhaps it imagines some layer that doesn't exist yet? But practical transparent TVs that disappear don't seem realistic unless people want space to be white, yellow, blue, red or whatever color their family room is. Not just space, really night....

LCD's have switched on black for decade upon decade. All 7 segment LCD calculators do precisely that. A middle layer is part of that Apple patent and might be functionally similar.

Did you read the link? As per the link: There are 3 layers. A solid white on the bottom. A middle opacity layer (I'm guessing LCD) that leaves you either the white shining through underneath or black, and the top layer which is the OLED. Here's the part of the article you must have missed:
Quote:
The system also includes a switchable layer between the OLED and the white background. This layer can be either transparent or black - which will allow to see black pixels (which is not possible in normal transparent OLEDs).

As a suggestion, if Apple wanted a transparent OLED computer monitor with black ability, they'd have the top two layers only. The patent is essentially that, with a white layer added at the bottom.
Edited by tgm1024 - 1/7/13 at 12:12pm
post #129 of 412
By the way, does anyone know how the white sub on the LG OLED's is supposed to be used?

Is it only for full-blast white, or is it always displaying the grey component of the RGB triad?
post #130 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

By the way, does anyone know how the white sub on the LG OLED's is supposed to be used?
Is it only for full-blast white, or is it always displaying the grey component of the RGB triad?

I believe that it also, when filtered by color filters, acts to compensate for the aging blue element.
post #131 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

I believe that it also, when filtered by color filters, acts to compensate for the aging blue element.

Do you mean a filter on the W sub? That's not possible. But keeping the correction curves out of the equation for the moment (to keep the discussion simple in a plain old RGB color model because it all still applies either way) if the blue was dying, they'd be forced to ramp down the RG accordingly and raise the grey component via W to match what it would have been like had the blue been there, but it'd only work for the cases where R and G exceed B. I think; it's been a while since I wrote/designed color model conversion and correction algorithms. That's all very interesting. I can't wait to find out the actual facts.
post #132 of 412
fror members attending ces, could you kindly post what the consumer electronic companies are actually displaying at the convention.

i've already read 2 news articles that are wildly inaccurate.

one claims lg is displaying and 84" oled . the other claims sony is showing off its 4k oled.
maybe this is correct, but i'm skeptical
post #133 of 412
LG's only OLED is the 55". The 65" and 84" displays there are, in fact, 4K LCDs that people have incorrectly referred to as OLEDs.
post #134 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

LCD's have switched on black for decade upon decade. All 7 segment LCD calculators do precisely that. A middle layer is part of that Apple patent and might be functionally similar.
Did you read the link? As per the link: There are 3 layers. A solid white on the bottom. A middle opacity layer (I'm guessing LCD) that leaves you either the white shining through underneath or black, and the top layer which is the OLED. Here's the part of the article you must have missed:
As a suggestion, if Apple wanted a transparent OLED computer monitor with black ability, they'd have the top two layers only. The patent is essentially that, with a white layer added at the bottom.

LCD can have switched on blacks, OLEDs cannot.

The LCD layer in this theoretical world is (a) not as black as you think and therefore won't be anywhere near as contrasty as a true OLED TV (b) not actually transparent, even though it's somewhat close to that. You could make a "transparent" TV this way, but it won't have "million to one" contrast nor be truly transparent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by taichi4 View Post

I believe that it also, when filtered by color filters, acts to compensate for the aging blue element.

It does not compensate for anything.
post #135 of 412
@Rogo

Is the new Panasonic ZT60 being shown at CES?
post #136 of 412
Thread Starter 
Sixteen new plasma TVs from Panasonic for 2013, none that break into larger classes HD

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/sixteen-new-plasma-tvs-from-panasonic-for-2013-none-that-break/

"The new 2013 lineup of Panasonic plasmas will be available starting in February, with 16 new models ranging from 42-inches to 65-inches -- nothing to compete with the 70 and up LCDs. The new flagship series is the ZT60. Only available in 60 and 65-inches, it is the only one in the lineup that offers "Beyond the Reference" level of picture quality and ultimate black color with its Studio Master Panel. The bulk of the new cool features of the ZT60 are also available on the VT60. Things like Voice Guidance and Voice Interaction -- which fall short of full blown voice control -- integrated camera and WiFi, TXH for both 2D and 3D and ISFccc Calibration Mode and include a touch pad controller. Every new model, except the X60, also supports an optional Electronic Touch Pen accessory. The ZT60, VT60, and ST60 set themselves apart even further with a personalized home screen, Viera Connect with Swipe & Share for transferring photos and videos from your smartphone or tablet with a flick of the finger. While the lineup detailed in the press release below certain features some new features worth clamoring for, as well as an attractive new design, the lack of any sets larger than 65-inches, and no Ultra HD, gives the competition an indisputable edge in the large TV market."

Here is Panasonic's description of their top of the line model for 2013

"The VIERA ZT60 Series offers a "Beyond the Reference" level of picture quality. Ultimate black color, contrast and crystal crisp picture are achieved thanks to the new Studio Master Panel with newly developed panel driving method and panel structure with direct glass layer. The front glass is directly attached to the Plasma panel itself by Panasonic's exclusive crafting methods. As a result of the improvement, dim and double images are cut off by eliminating the air gap layer between the front glass and Plasma panel. The ZT60 series enhances compatibility between ultimate picture quality and stylish design. The quality of the ZT60's 3D images is greatly enhanced, with clear, natural Full HD 3D images because of reduced crosstalk. 3000 Focused-field Drive also produces image resolution of 1080 lines for 2D images, to provide crisp, clear image motion. A wider color gamut (DCI 98% Color Space) is achieved thanks to a newly developed pure red phosphor. The ZT60 features THX in both 2D and 3D modes *1 as well as ISFccc Calibration Mode with Advanced Calibration. Calibrators adjust the detailed picture setting with calibration software (CALMAN™ ) provided by SpectraCal Inc."
Edited by greenland - 1/7/13 at 1:50pm
post #137 of 412
Some information on Samsung's UHD, OLED, LCD, and PDP lineup. Top-of-the line range of LED-LCD's (F8000) top out at 75", plasmas (F8500) at 64". I believe the UHD display (S9) is 85" and the (yield-limited) OLED (F9500) remains 55".

http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/?p=21335

F8000 LED-LCD



F8500 PDP

Edited by koffas - 1/7/13 at 2:40pm
post #138 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Sixteen new plasma TVs from Panasonic for 2013, none that break into larger classes HD
http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/07/sixteen-new-plasma-tvs-from-panasonic-for-2013-none-that-break/
"The new 2013 lineup of Panasonic plasmas will be available starting in February, with 16 new models ranging from 42-inches to 65-inches -- nothing to compete with the 70 and up LCDs. The new flagship series is the ZT60. Only available in 60 and 65-inches, it is the only one in the lineup that offers "Beyond the Reference" level of picture quality and ultimate black color with its Studio Master Panel. The bulk of the new cool features of the ZT60 are also available on the VT60. Things like Voice Guidance and Voice Interaction -- which fall short of full blown voice control -- integrated camera and WiFi, TXH for both 2D and 3D and ISFccc Calibration Mode and include a touch pad controller. Every new model, except the X60, also supports an optional Electronic Touch Pen accessory. The ZT60, VT60, and ST60 set themselves apart even further with a personalized home screen, Viera Connect with Swipe & Share for transferring photos and videos from your smartphone or tablet with a flick of the finger. While the lineup detailed in the press release below certain features some new features worth clamoring for, as well as an attractive new design, the lack of any sets larger than 65-inches, and no Ultra HD, gives the competition an indisputable edge in the large TV market."
Here is Panasonic's description of their top of the line model for 2013
"The VIERA ZT60 Series offers a "Beyond the Reference" level of picture quality. Ultimate black color, contrast and crystal crisp picture are achieved thanks to the new Studio Master Panel with newly developed panel driving method and panel structure with direct glass layer. The front glass is directly attached to the Plasma panel itself by Panasonic's exclusive crafting methods. As a result of the improvement, dim and double images are cut off by eliminating the air gap layer between the front glass and Plasma panel. The ZT60 series enhances compatibility between ultimate picture quality and stylish design. The quality of the ZT60's 3D images is greatly enhanced, with clear, natural Full HD 3D images because of reduced crosstalk. 3000 Focused-field Drive also produces image resolution of 1080 lines for 2D images, to provide crisp, clear image motion. A wider color gamut (DCI 98% Color Space) is achieved thanks to a newly developed pure red phosphor. The ZT60 features THX in both 2D and 3D modes *1 as well as ISFccc Calibration Mode with Advanced Calibration. Calibrators adjust the detailed picture setting with calibration software (CALMAN™ ) provided by SpectraCal Inc."

Thankyou! finally something worth reading
post #139 of 412
"Ultimate black color" doesn't mean much actually.
post #140 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

LCD can have switched on blacks, OLEDs cannot.
Oh yes, of course, the transparent OLED PART of this cannot "emit" a black, I don't think anyone's saying that. Or at least I hope not. However, a transparent computer monitor could certainly have an "opacity layer" (as Apple puts it) and have the transparency driven by an alpha channel. Something called an OLED TV (proper name for it) could well have that ability as well, but transparency for viewing content like movies, etc.? That'd be useless, ludicrous and above all annoying as hell. But to have it for a transparent monitor (like a phone or nifty tablet), I could see it.

I saw this conversation stemming from this comment from sytech
Quote:
Originally Posted by sytech View Post

I think Samsung and LG will show off an additional one or two OLED prototypes. Probably larger 2K OLED screen and a 4K OLED model. The display in that special Samsung commercial is rumored to be some sort of transparent display like those computer monitors they showed awhile back or possible a near zero bezel LCD you can run in portrait mode for some reason.
...and I was talking about how transparent OLED displays could have black accomplished by such an LCD layer behind them, because you questioned how.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo 
The LCD layer in this theoretical world is (a) not as black as you think
You mean as black as Apple thinks? Sure, ok. Beats me. You'll have to ask them. How black would it be? You have me wondering that point---Wouldn't it be at least as black as a locally dimmed LED-LCD black is now? A background room light isn't the blasting LED bulb of LCD sets. The opacity layer wouldn't have to block out as much as the LED-LCD's currently do. But again, this idea isn't (or shouldn't be) for TV content.

Quote:
and therefore won't be anywhere near as contrasty as a true OLED TV (b) not actually transparent, even though it's somewhat close to that. You could make a "transparent" TV this way, but it won't have "million to one" contrast nor be truly transparent.
It does not compensate for anything.
I don't see any reason for a transparent TV to begin with. Broadcast/Movie content that's hard to see? It'd have multiple uses in the computer monitor world, maybe for things like car windshields or places where people need to see around the computer, but for the tv-show and movie content itself? Unless it has double duty as a computer monitor where it matters to see through it, I can't imagine a world where that makes sense.
post #141 of 412
That F8500 has the ugliest stand I've ever seen in my life.
post #142 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

I don't see any reason for a transparent TV to begin with. Broadcast/Movie content that's hard to see? It'd have multiple uses in the computer monitor world, maybe for things like car windshields or places where people need to see around the computer, but for the tv-show and movie content itself? Unless it has double duty as a computer monitor where it matters to see through it, I can't imagine a world where that makes sense.
You can't imagine a world where there are no displays on the wall, and instead your window is actually your display?
A large room with a TV dividing the area when it's on, and transparent when off?
Even just large scale displays in the over 50" range where you no longer have to put up with a giant black slab on your wall. I bet the "wife acceptance factor" of an 84" display would be significantly higher if it were transparent when off, rather than dominating the room.
post #143 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

That F8500 has the ugliest stand I've ever seen in my life.
Samsung's 85-inch 4K beats it by many miles. Now, that's the ugliest stand I've ever seen in my life. smile.gif Who could have possibly green-lit this thing? It's a chalkboard.
post #144 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

That F8500 has the ugliest stand I've ever seen in my life.
Uglier than the Samsung 85" UHD TV? tongue.gif
post #145 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

You can't imagine a world where there are no displays on the wall, and instead your window is actually your display?
A large room with a TV dividing the area when it's on, and transparent when off?
Even just large scale displays in the over 50" range where you no longer have to put up with a giant black slab on your wall. I bet the "wife acceptance factor" of an 84" display would be significantly higher if it were transparent when off, rather than dominating the room.

Yeah, I suppose that makes sense, but what I'm mostly getting at is that I can't see people wanting to see TV content with the background visible. If that window had something like Apple's opacity layer, then I could see it. Otherwise I'd be gross.
post #146 of 412
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms View Post

Samsung's 85-inch 4K beats it by many miles. Now, that's the ugliest stand I've ever seen in my life. smile.gif Who could have possibly green-lit this thing? It's a chalkboard.

So that is what it is. I though they were introducing their folding snack tables line.wink.gif
post #147 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolscan View Post

Uglier than the Samsung 85" UHD TV? tongue.gif
You guys make a strong argument. But I look at the F8500 and I'm looking for a hammer to pound it flat so I can prop the thing up against the wall instead. Seriously, I look at that bent outwards bow and I cringe cringe cringe.
post #148 of 412
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

You guys make a strong argument. But I look at the F8500 and I'm looking for a hammer to pound it flat so I can prop the thing up against the wall instead. Seriously, I look at that bent outwards bow and I cringe cringe cringe.

The bottom frame of the F8500 looks like a portion of the bezel surface has become unglued. It is a really ugly stand design.
post #149 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

"Ultimate black color" doesn't mean much actually.

It means the black is ultimate biggrin.gif
post #150 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

The bottom frame of the F8500 looks like a portion of the bezel surface has become unglued. It is a really ugly stand design.

You know what it reminds me of? You know those house make-over shows where they bring some whackjob designer in, and they're so bored with themselves and their lives that they wall paper the wall in a grass skirt motif?
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