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CES 2013 - Page 9  

post #241 of 412
So what are everyones thoughts on Sonys new TVs with this triluminos tech? It seems that it's a bit different from the triluminos tech from the XBR8 in that it utilizes QD Visions Colour IQ technology:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130107007150/en/QD-Vision-Launches-Color-IQ%E2%84%A2-World%E2%80%99s-High

According to the article it can be utilized for anything from TVs to mobiles, and going by the fact that Sony has prototype laptop displays using this tech at CES, I guess we might at least see it on laptops/tablets one day and maybe even phones.

Anyone here have a chance to actually see these TV sets for themselves at CES?
post #242 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It should go without saying that $300,000 is not what we'd call the price of a "product" per se. That's basically a one-off, like the trade-show Sharps from a few years back. It's funny because Samsung is showing a 110", pretending it's a product, getting irritated with me when I tell the guy next to me that it's a not a product, and then just today.... I said, "But if someone wanted one for a lobby, I'm sure they could order one for around $300,000." This was before I read the Engadget thing. Irony much? What's interesting is that Hisense seemed somewhat motivated to actually offer theirs as a real product. As in sub $100K by a lot real. I was trying to get someone to commit to $39,999 but I didn't get very far. smile.gif

Yeah, would be interesting to know what is the factory price in China. The rest is then the Westinghouse fat guys salaries and perks biggrin.gif. However, even for the 300 grands this is limited edition on product. Oligarchs, billionaires, sheikhs and the likes will be attracted to it since it is not too cheap eek.gif. For normal mortals it would be nice to read a PQ report of it from the distance of 2PH and especially if the viewing angle is OK.

Update 1: This review od HiSense 110" LCD is better than nothing: 4K image slideshow looked more vivid than real-life.

Update 2: Trying to gather more info about Hisense
I bumped into this news release:

On December 26th 2012, Hisense began construction on the world’s largest R&D base in Laoshan District, Qingdao.

This base will focus on Hisense R&D multimedia industry technology, covering an area of 430 acres, with tens of thousands of R&D employees, and be a future technological hub for technology, information, and research. This R&D base will build a solid foundation for Hisense’s development over the next 30 years as the base is designed to be the world's most advanced and innovative research and development center. After completion, it will also become a famous ecological mountain park here in Laoshan District, Qingdao.

World's biggest R&D with tens of thousands confused.gif. Now they have 110" UHD ready, next will be houses built of LCD walls cool.gif.
Edited by irkuck - 1/10/13 at 2:53am
post #243 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Or to put it another way, (for tv/movie content still), the distance to the screen is only a win if the image itself was meant to be drawn that way.
See why I'm skeptical of it?

I believe you are right if the screen curvature is rather large. For moderate curvature I do not see it as a problem, there are in fact cinemas in which the screen is slightly curved. In any case this is relevant only to wide angle viewing at 2PH distance and even bit less, even in cinema not many people select this distance.
post #244 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vivftp View Post

So what are everyones thoughts on Sonys new TVs with this triluminos tech? It seems that it's a bit different from the triluminos tech from the XBR8 in that it utilizes QD Visions Colour IQ technology:

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130107007150/en/QD-Vision-Launches-Color-IQ%E2%84%A2-World%E2%80%99s-High

According to the article it can be utilized for anything from TVs to mobiles, and going by the fact that Sony has prototype laptop displays using this tech at CES, I guess we might at least see it on laptops/tablets one day and maybe even phones.
It’s basically a quantum dot film that goes between the backlight and LCD panel that allows them to get very pure red, green, and blue light from blue LEDs rather than phosphor coated “white” LEDs, or requiring RGB LEDs, giving them a much wider gamut. (Or perhaps their solution is to create their own “white LEDs” rather than using a film between the backlight and the panel)

Nanosys have been showing demos of similar tech for couple of years, but it seems more relevant now, as we move to 4K displays and beyond the BT.709 gamut.

http://youtu.be/xKfrSDMrMMU
post #245 of 412
Color IQ in new Sony panels is one of the most exciting developments at this CES, because it's an actual product that will go on sale this year, not a prototype. With this quantum dot film, at least the colors that LCDs generate should be perfect now. If only they fixed contrast and motion reproduction to same extent, we wouldn't need OLEDs.
post #246 of 412
It's not very exciting. Do the colors look better? Maybe a bit. Will they come out of the box with proper, calibrated color? I doubt it big time.

I mean, sure, better is better. But this is subtle stuff and mostly it's marketing over substance. "We have this thing, we are Sony, spend more for it."
post #247 of 412
It's exciting to me and other people. The colors will look better. I'm glad quantum dots are finding their way into TVs, albeit through a back door, but still.
post #248 of 412
Thread Starter 
Panasonic TC-PZT60 series prepares to reign

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p60zt60/4505-6482_7-35567247.html

"I got a quick look at the ZT60 compared to the VT50 in a dark-room demo at Panasonic's booth, and the new panel did produce slightly deeper black levels than even that vaunted set. Panasonic's rep mentioned the company was still tweaking the software, but the improvements, while subtle, were clearly visible. Blacks didn't look quite as deep the "absolute" seen on OLED TVs, but they were pretty close. I was also told the ZT60 has a slightly better light-rejecting filter than the VT60, but it was tough to tell any difference in the booth. Suffice to say I'm psyched to get my hands on a shipping sample, which Panasonic says will be in the April/May time frame."
post #249 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms View Post

Color IQ in new Sony panels is one of the most exciting developments at this CES, because it's an actual product that will go on sale this year, not a prototype. With this quantum dot film, at least the colors that LCDs generate should be perfect now. If only they fixed contrast and motion reproduction to same extent, we wouldn't need OLEDs.
So you think LCD viewing angles are satisfactory? Yup, I'll go down with the Plasma ship in such a display world.
post #250 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

So you think LCD viewing angles are satisfactory? Yup, I'll go down with the Plasma ship in such a display world.

Viewing angles are more then satisfactory,unless one is unfortunate to sit at such extreme off axis where it just doesn't look right even if one is watching on a OLED or Plasma..
post #251 of 412
^That is not universally true, soz. Even this 2012 Samsung 32" model purchased for a family member degrades noticeably, both vertically and horizontally, in comparison to the 3-year-old Kuro in the living room. File under less than satisfactory and "don't piss on me and tell me it's raining." tongue.gifmad.gif
post #252 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

Viewing angles are more then satisfactory,unless one is unfortunate to sit at such extreme off axis where it just doesn't look right even if one is watching on a OLED or Plasma..

I think that point is up for debate. Some LCD's have passable/adequate off angle viewing.
post #253 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

So you think LCD viewing angles are satisfactory? .
No.
post #254 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^That is not universally true, soz. Even this 2012 Samsung 32" model purchased for a family member degrades noticeably, both vertically and horizontally, in comparison to the 3-year-old Kuro in the living room. File under less than satisfactory and "don't piss on me and tell me it's raining." tongue.gifmad.gif

Most 32" and 40" samsung come with a SMVA panel which are not know for viewing angle.

Mid range or high end model with SPVA panels have acceptable viewing angles.
post #255 of 412
This was a higher end smart tv 32" model (>$500), though I can't be sure of the panel type (I believe it can be gleamed from the serial #).
post #256 of 412
is sharp showing any signs of life?

any new products from them at ces?
post #257 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

is sharp showing any signs of life?

any new products from them at ces?

They announced their whole 2013 line, and talked a lot about IGZO. They also showcased their 32" 4K IGZO monitor
Here's one of a myriad of articles on the topic

http://ces.cnet.com/8301-34435_1-57562862/at-ces-sharp-explains-benefits-of-its-igzo-display-tech/
post #258 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

Viewing angles are more then satisfactory,unless one is unfortunate to sit at such extreme off axis where it just doesn't look right even if one is watching on a OLED or Plasma..

"Satisfactory" is subjective, so that doesn't tell anyone anything. What is satisfactory to you probably isn't for me.

There isn't a single LCD display I've seen, old or new, from any manufacturer, that doesn't start to wash out as soon as I start moving off the sweet spot. Yes, some people may find they are still "satisfied"
but for me it's not satisfactory at all - not enough to make for a reference technology for sure.
post #259 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

"I got a quick look at the ZT60 compared to the VT50 in a dark-room demo at Panasonic's booth, and the new panel did produce slightly deeper black levels than even that vaunted set.
Well that's disappointing. They need more than a slight improvement. Sounds like we are still going to be less than 30,000:1 once calibrated. ("9.5G" Pioneer)

I wonder what the response time of their new red phosphor is like. They still have "phosphor lag" issues on the current range.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Blacks didn't look quite as deep the "absolute" seen on OLED TVs, but they were pretty close.
This is the kind of reporting that I hate. If it was only a slight improvement over last year's model, then it's nowhere close to OLED black level.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^That is not universally true, soz. Even this 2012 Samsung 32" model purchased for a family member degrades noticeably, both vertically and horizontally, in comparison to the 3-year-old Kuro in the living room. File under less than satisfactory and "don't piss on me and tell me it's raining." tongue.gifmad.gif
32" panels are generally not the same as large LCD panels. And there are many different types of panels in use. (Samsung typically have poor viewing angles)

And I'll never understand why someone wants to buy a high-end set and then not sit on-axis to watch it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

"Satisfactory" is subjective, so that doesn't tell anyone anything. What is satisfactory to you probably isn't for me.

There isn't a single LCD display I've seen, old or new, from any manufacturer, that doesn't start to wash out as soon as I start moving off the sweet spot. Yes, some people may find they are still "satisfied"
but for me it's not satisfactory at all - not enough to make for a reference technology for sure.
H-IPS with an A-TW Polarizer has excellent viewing angles:

28l3l9i67kwf.jpg

It depends entirely on the type of panel used, the size, room lighting conditions (LCDs tend to show viewing angle issues more in the dark) etc.

In fact most IPS panels are that good, the problem is that a lot of cheaper ones don't use an A-TW Polarizer - but you would only see that in the dark.
post #260 of 412
^Sure, if you're only one person. Seating arrangements don't always allow for everyone to be at a 90-degree angle from the panel, that's just reality.

And Samsung panels permeate more than just their own brand (though I am not so sure they provide Sony panels any longer).

Also, those ZT60 black levels could go deeper with the aforementioned continued software tweaks. The first-look reviews/measurements can't come soon enough.
post #261 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms View Post

It's exciting to me and other people. The colors will look better. I'm glad quantum dots are finding their way into TVs, albeit through a back door, but still.

I'm glad to learn you really like the colors on something you haven't seen. I've seen it, the improvements are marginal.

As for your excitement that something called "quantum dots" are in the TVs, I don't know what to even make of that. Are you also excited about quad core?

What about charmed quarks?
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland View Post

Panasonic TC-PZT60 series prepares to reign

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p60zt60/4505-6482_7-35567247.html

"I got a quick look at the ZT60 compared to the VT50 in a dark-room demo at Panasonic's booth, and the new panel did produce slightly deeper black levels than even that vaunted set. Panasonic's rep mentioned the company was still tweaking the software, but the improvements, while subtle, were clearly visible. Blacks didn't look quite as deep the "absolute" seen on OLED TVs, but they were pretty close. I was also told the ZT60 has a slightly better light-rejecting filter than the VT60, but it was tough to tell any difference in the booth. Suffice to say I'm psyched to get my hands on a shipping sample, which Panasonic says will be in the April/May time frame."

The ZT60 has a small change to panel construction, which goes to the heart of its better light rejecting. But either way, it seems like a decent upgrade.

I'm sure Kuro fans will reject it out of hand as they always do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. wally View Post

is sharp showing any signs of life?

any new products from them at ces?

Yes, plenty. "4K Lite", using Quattron panels, a small incremental price bump... Looks very good. Real 4K, a big incremental price bump.... Looks very very good. Real 4K with ICC, astronomically priced... Looks even more amazing than last year, but fuhgedaboudit.

My problem with Sharp is this: I want an IGZO Sharp in a huge size, and that's not happening in 2013. Still, if one wanted a 70" or bigger LCD this year, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Sharp.
post #262 of 412
^Kuro fan here who hasn't begun to dismiss the ZT out of hand, but thanks for the prejudgement. smile.gif

And I don't think as a Kuro owner that it's asking too much to expect something to come along after 4 years that at least matches in the technical area at which one's current panel excels.
post #263 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

^Kuro fan here who hasn't begun to dismiss the ZT out of hand, but thanks for the prejudgement. smile.gif

And I don't think as a Kuro owner that it's asking too much to expect something to come along after 4 years that at least matches in the technical area at which one's current panel excels.
You have to realize that Panasonic actually cares about gradation, and it's a lot harder to achieve such low black levels with the driving method they use.
post #264 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm glad to learn you really like the colors on something you haven't seen. I've seen it, the improvements are marginal.
You've seen these on, presumably, bright show floor? Need I add anything? Quantum dot film tunes RGB colors to their correct, narrow wavelengths, it's just science. The colors will be better as a result. Forgive me, but I don't particularly trust your opinion about what you saw.
post #265 of 412
Question:
This thing below:



Is not LED Backlight? Only EDGE-LIT???

If so, then this imo is NOT a successor to this then:

Sony Bravia HX950/HX955



Personally, if I'm talking about flagship LCD HDTVs AND am only forced to choose one feature, I'd take LED BACKLIGHT over 4K/UHD anyday.
post #266 of 412
Rogo is my friend and I trust what he sees.

Am I the only person in the world who has friends that come and watch TV with me and sit to the left and tight of dead on center?

Why would I or anyone else want them to see a significantly worse picture than me if I was sitting dead center?

I'm sorry--LCD NEVER has cut it when it comes to viewing angles and NEVER WILL.

The truth IS I just state what every "sophisticated" plasma lover here knows but is afraid to come out and say and that is once plasma dies--if all we have is LCD--that will be messed up!

They don't have the courage to say that about the gorilla in the room--I do!

Much of the yearning for OLED is not just about OLED but the HORROR of LCD without a plasma alternative.

Do a poll--ask plasma lovers once their set dies--if OLED never pans out--would they be happy with LCD?!

The answer is NO!!!

And before people here try to villify me or act like I'm crazy just do a poll of display reviewers around the world--people who know everything about video picture quality--THEY know that LCD doesn't cut it--but should we believe them?

as Belushi would say NOOOOOOOOO! We're supposed to believe that LCD is good because that's what the video display companies want to sell and this forum is one of the places where they push their products!

You know how much I hate LCD? If the only way to avoid an all LCD world was with curved screen OLED that you could only watch in public bathroom stalls then I would go for that over LCD!!!!
post #267 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms View Post

You've seen these on, presumably, bright show floor? Need I add anything? Quantum dot film tunes RGB colors to their correct, narrow wavelengths, it's just science. The colors will be better as a result. Forgive me, but I don't particularly trust your opinion about what you saw.

Forgive me, I just don't trust your opinion of (a) something you didn't see ever and (b) a meaningless statement that colors will be "better". How much "better"? How bad are they now? How will they be better? Accuracy? Can't the Sonys already reproduce the relevant color gamut? Supra-gamut reproduction has no known use since sources aren't encoded for it.
post #268 of 412
Everything can be explained one way or the other. cool.gif

http://youtu.be/wuZFkHgl5ZU
post #269 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post

Viewing angles are more then satisfactory,unless one is unfortunate to sit at such extreme off axis where it just doesn't look right even if one is watching on a OLED or Plasma..

My Panny G20 doesn't degrade even when watching at 45º off axis.
post #270 of 412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackraven View Post

Question:
This thing below:

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/125580/width/500/height/1000

Is not LED Backlight? Only EDGE-LIT???

If so, then this imo is NOT a successor to this then:

Sony Bravia HX950/HX955

http://www.avsforum.com/content/type/61/id/125583/width/500/height/1000

Personally, if I'm talking about flagship LCD HDTVs AND am only forced to choose one feature, I'd take LED BACKLIGHT over 4K/UHD anyday.
Sadly, it looks like that is the case. I will say this though, neither the HX920 or HX950 (the last digit denotes region) have matched the HX900 image quality, due to using lower contrast LCD panels, and implementing the “Peak LED” system which increases contrast at the expense of introducing more haloing, and I haven’t seen the option to use local dimming without Peak LED on them. I had hoped it would be introduced as a new setting above “standard” for the local dimming option, but it seems to have just replaced it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Forgive me, I just don't trust your opinion of (a) something you didn't see ever and (b) a meaningless statement that colors will be "better". How much "better"? How bad are they now? How will they be better? Accuracy? Can't the Sonys already reproduce the relevant color gamut? Supra-gamut reproduction has no known use since sources aren't encoded for it.
4K will use an expanded gamut, and I think all the sets using this are 4K native, aren’t they? (If not, I assume they are designed to at least display 4K material) That’s a big leg-up over the rest of the competition, who are only going wide gamut like that with OLED. (And Panasonic’s ZT60 with the new red phosphor)

I don’t expect that it will have much, if any impact on BT.709 image quality though.
I think it could be measurably more accurate, but we are at the point where improvements will be so small you will only be able to measure them rather than them being noticeable by eye.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert View Post

My Panny G20 doesn't degrade even when watching at 45º off axis.
Image quality shouldn't degrade on that much at all, though you will start to see a double image on that panel due to the front filter design, from what I remember.

But I think his point was that the better LCDs don’t degrade the image much at all, at the kind of angles it’s reasonable to watch the TV at. Once you get to a certain point, the image is so distorted from being at a sharp angle, it’s unwatchable anyway.
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