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CES 2013 - Page 12  

post #331 of 412
1/14/13 at 10:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Are you sure it's macroblocking that you are seeing, and not interpolation errors? (assuming they have the 240Hz or whatever mode activated) I don't recall having problems with Blu-ray on projectors putting out a far larger image.

You are right. I have seen an 80" sharp at fry's with the interpolation set to "the young and the restless mode"wink.gif and at that size it creates all kinds of problems (I don't like frame interpolation period). I have a friend with the full array backlit version and in her home enviroment, blu rays look pretty good (frame interpolation off of course). It has the normal lcd issues, but it looks good from the right viewing distance. I do think I would want a 4k set at this size, however, because you do start to notice the screen door effect if you get within 5 or 6 feet of it. I have a 65" set now and don't see pixels until I am way closer to it than I would ever watch from, about the same time I start to see dithering. I think 75" is the max I would want at 1080p, beyond that and I see 4k as the best option. I don't see the point of these 55" 4k tvs though.
post #332 of 412
1/14/13 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Ken Ross: don 't sell out and buy LCD! If you buy LCD then the world is lost!

Hope you're sitting down. He sold off his plasma some time ago and is now a fully devoted (Elite) LCD owner, preferring it over his former Kuro plasma, which he once thought so highly of. True story.
post #333 of 412
1/14/13 at 11:56am
His opinion isn't universally shared though. wink.gif
post #334 of 412
1/14/13 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I believe you on them being edge-lit; I honestly didn't look at them long enough to form any impressions. At Sony, it was too easy to keep gravitating back to the 4K OLED. It's a shame they are edge lit, but on the other hand, at least Sony has gotten better at that.
Lord knows what he's seeing, but you can definitely blow up a BluRay to 100+" inches without macroblocking. That isn't to say you don't want more resolution, but is to say that 1080 can go pretty big -- when well encoded and with enough bits -- without macroblocking. Heck, a fair amount of digital movie theater projectors are still 2K.
It's fun to note that the original Toy Story was rendered at 1536 x 925 for the theaters. Depending on where I read about it, the resulting master was set to 720p.
post #335 of 412
1/14/13 at 12:10pm
Quote:
His opinion isn't universally shared though.

I'm sure that's true. But Ken was a very big plasma fan for a long time, at least until the Sharp Elite LCD came along.

Maybe I posted because I derive some perverse pleasure in watching Artwood swoon deeper into his panel technology funk. biggrin.gif
post #336 of 412
1/14/13 at 12:37pm
How diabolical.wink.gif I understand his pain, though. biggrin.gif
post #337 of 412
1/14/13 at 1:12pm
Are the Samsung Passive 3D's they've announced going to be using the RDZ technology? (Shuttering the light within the TV + normal passive glasses, no halving of vertical resolution).
post #338 of 412
1/14/13 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Are the Samsung Passive 3D's they've announced going to be using the RDZ technology? (Shuttering the light within the TV + normal passive glasses, no halving of vertical resolution).
That's still going to have the flicker and crosstalk problems of Active 3D though.
post #339 of 412
1/14/13 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I guess we differ on the Panasonic, which I find to have a very high quality picture and is a bargain and is 65". It seems to remain the choice of most videophiles, based on my on-floor chatter at CES, but not yourself. So be it. I don't believe the 65" Sony 4K will be a discount to the Elie 70", but I would consider it more "future proof". Also, won't it have full local dimming? Their existing 65" does.

I think the Panasonic has an excellent picture, but I do find myself preferring the extra pop and full-screen brightness headroom that the Elite gives me. I don't see myself going back to plasma. Since the better LED/LCD displays have overcome the black level issues they had for so long, my issues with them are essentially gone. Yes, off-axis viewing is still an issue, but with my wife and I doing 98% of the viewing, it's not an issue.

I do believe the new Sonys are edge lit, so I'll need to see it. I do recall reading a review of the last 2K edge lit Sony, and the reviewer found it hard to believe it was just an edge lit display. We shall see.

Art, where have you been? smile.gif I abandoned my 60" Pioneer Kuro when the Sharp Elite arrived on the scene. I still have a 42" Kuro in our bedroom, but that too will be gone when we move to a new house.
post #340 of 412
1/14/13 at 7:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I do believe the new Sonys are edge lit, so I'll need to see it. I do recall reading a review of the last 2K edge lit Sony, and the reviewer found it hard to believe it was just an edge lit display. We shall see.
They do a good job with it, but I would be very surprised if you were happy with an edge-lit display after having a full array local dimming set.
post #341 of 412
1/14/13 at 8:16pm
The entire country is becoming blind!

You won't see me cry, though! If the whole world embraces LCD I won't!

The next thing you'll hear is how 4K OLED sucks compared to 4K LCD.

I won't believe that either!

If the only people left in the world still making non LCD sets are the Chinese I might have to become a communist and join them!
post #342 of 412
1/14/13 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

That's still going to have the flicker and crosstalk problems of Active 3D though.

I have to make guesses here....Flickering yes. Crosstalk: Not really; at least I don't think so. In Active you have a shuttering eyepiece that has to sync with a shuttering TV. An open right eye might take in a left eye image briefly if the synchronization isn't perfect.

However, in RDZ, you merely have a shuttering TV. Each eye does receive the signal alternatively, but you're never going to have the situation where the right eye is receiving the left eye information accidentally. At least not if they're implementing this the way I believe they must be (alternating interwoven banks of LED's, half filtered left, the other right), and so long as only one light source is active at a time. If they're doing something different from that, I'd love to know about it.

If I'm correctly guessing about what they're doing, then the flickering might be less painful than active as well, because isn't it the case in active that in active each left or right "lens" tries to stay open briefer than half the time in order to minimize the chance of tripping over the wrong frame? In the RDZ case, the eyes just receive whichever L or R signal the TV is sending out and those frames would have the ability to be right up against each other with no time gap between.
Edited by tgm1024 - 1/14/13 at 9:49pm
post #343 of 412
1/14/13 at 9:37pm
I would be expecting crosstalk due to the response time of the display panel, rather than sync issues.
With passive 3D you don't have that problem, because the response time of the left-eye-image has no impact on the response time of the right-eye-image, as they have their own lines.
post #344 of 412
1/14/13 at 11:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

I would be expecting crosstalk due to the response time of the display panel, rather than sync issues.
With passive 3D you don't have that problem, because the response time of the left-eye-image has no impact on the response time of the right-eye-image, as they have their own lines.


If I understand what you're saying, you're worried about the time it takes for an LCD element to align to it's new orientation, and what L or R light might be under the frame when its elements are still in motion. That "response time" is a fair point. But pinning down the maximum time for the change and blanking during that change would be fairly easy, no?
post #345 of 412
1/14/13 at 11:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

If I understand what you're saying, you're worried about the time it takes for an LCD element to align to it's new orientation, and what L or R light might be under the frame when its elements are still in motion. That "response time" is a fair point. But pinning down the maximum time for the change and blanking during that change would be fairly easy, no?
That assumes the response time is faster than 8ms. Most LCD panels used in TVs (not TN panels used in monitors) will still be over 8ms with many transitions. Eliminating crosstalk with 3D is a lot harder than sharp motion with 2D where you have twice as much time.
post #346 of 412
1/15/13 at 2:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Hope you're sitting down. He sold off his plasma some time ago and is now a fully devoted (Elite) LCD owner, preferring it over his former Kuro plasma, which he once thought so highly of. True story.
Do the Elites still have the Cyan problem?
post #347 of 412
1/15/13 at 5:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

Do the Elites still have the Cyan problem?

Yes. There has been no fix for it but, talking to owners, most never see the issue due to a combination of the luminance value of the error together with the fact that it's a color not often shown and when it is, we have no real reference point in our head as to how it should look.

However the last thing I want to do is reignite that debate again. After 100s of pages on AVS, I think we've pretty well dispatched that topic. wink.gif
post #348 of 412
1/15/13 at 5:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

Are you sure it's macroblocking that you are seeing, and not interpolation errors? (assuming they have the 240Hz or whatever mode activated) I don't recall having problems with Blu-ray on projectors putting out a far larger image.

The Avengers was one that I remember..
post #349 of 412
1/15/13 at 6:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronoptimist View Post

That assumes the response time is faster than 8ms. Most LCD panels used in TVs (not TN panels used in monitors) will still be over 8ms with many transitions. Eliminating crosstalk with 3D is a lot harder than sharp motion with 2D where you have twice as much time.

Yeah, you're right....I was forgetting a lot. I was calculating out some of this stuff in my head as I was falling asleep last night. 8.33 ms is all you got for a 120Hz one-eye frame, so the worst case (color to color) transition time better be far below that.

Did the phrase RDZ show up at all for Samsung, or was this a one-off deal for CES 2011? Certainly no longer seems worth it, especially since LG's method seems to have largely removed the scan-line appearance, and 4K makes passive 1080 anyway.
post #350 of 412
1/15/13 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood 
The entire country is becoming blind!

You won't see me cry, though! If the whole world embraces LCD I won't!

The next thing you'll hear is how 4K OLED sucks compared to 4K LCD.

I won't believe that either!

If the only people left in the world still making non LCD sets are the Chinese I might have to become a communist and join them!
Go ahead, emigrate to China, become a member of the communist party and enjoy your chinese Plasma over there biggrin.gif
post #351 of 412
1/15/13 at 7:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Go ahead, emigrate to China, become a member of the communist party and enjoy your chinese Plasma over there biggrin.gif

Great. We're gonna start getting endless posts that look like:

即使等离子吮吸 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Even Plasma SUCKS)

LOL.....
post #352 of 412
1/15/13 at 7:31am
MIT Technology Review; Quantum Dots Get Commercial Debut in More Colorful Sony TVs
Quote:
Sony is using nanoscale particles called quantum dots to significantly improve the color of some of its high-end Bravia televisions. It showed off the technology, which increases the range of colors that an LCD television can display by about 50 percent, at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas this week. This marks the first time that quantum dots—which for a long time have fascinated researchers because of their unusual electronic and optical properties—have been used in a mass-produced consumer electronics product.

Quantum dots emit very specific wavelengths of light. And the precise colors they emit can be tuned by changing their size. Sony is incorporating technology from QD Vision, which has been working to commercialize advances made at MIT over a decade ago. Originally, the company aimed to make quantum dot displays that are similar to OLED displays—the quantum dots would form the pixels of the display, and would be turned on and off by applying electrical current via a transistor. Although QD Vision has developed prototypes of these displays, they’ve been difficult to make reliably in large sizes

The product that’s finally coming to market is far different. Sony’s new television is a modified LCD TV. In LCD televisions, each pixel is illuminated from behind by a white backlight, and different colors are created by changing the amount of light allowed to pass through three different filters—one red, one green, and one blue. LCDs originally used fluorescent bulbs as the backlight, but now most use LEDs (marketers call these products LED LCDs). QD Vision uses quantum dots to enhance the LED backlight.

While sleeker and sharper than their bulky CRT predecessors, LCD displays can’t produce the full range of color that CRTs could. The problem is the filters. They’re not very selective—the red filter might allow some of the orange part of the spectrum through, for example. And when the impure reds and greens mix, they produce washed-out colors.

QD Vision’s technology eliminates the white backlight. It starts with a conventional blue LED, which produces pure blue light. But that blue light also stimulates two kinds of quantum dots that emit pure green and pure red. With this approach, the only wavelength that passes through the red filter is the pure red emitted by the red quantum dots.

Sony hasn’t announced prices for the new displays yet. But Coe-Sullivan says they will be priced in the range of current LCD TVs, not OLED televisions, which are far more expensive. The models that use QD Vision’s technology will carry the brand “Triluminos.”

The new technology is a hit with some industry watchers (one publication named the new Sony KD-65X9000A, one of the TVs to feature the quantum dots, “Best in Show” at CES). Sony is pairing the quantum dot backlighting with other innovations, such as 3-D and and ultra-high 4K resolution, which it hopes will boost sales. Sales of TVs have been flagging.

Other quantum dot displays are in the works. For example, last year Nanosys announced it would have a quantum dot backlight product in a notebook in 2013, but it hasn’t disclosed the specific product
See the commentary section of the Engadget article about this for some impressions of the added quality some people that saw this demonstrated at CES.
post #353 of 412
1/15/13 at 8:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

I think the Panasonic has an excellent picture, but I do find myself preferring the extra pop and full-screen brightness headroom that the Elite gives me. I don't see myself going back to plasma. Since the better LED/LCD displays have overcome the black level issues they had for so long, my issues with them are essentially gone. Yes, off-axis viewing is still an issue, but with my wife and I doing 98% of the viewing, it's not an issue.

I do believe the new Sonys are edge lit, so I'll need to see it. I do recall reading a review of the last 2K edge lit Sony, and the reviewer found it hard to believe it was just an edge lit display. We shall see.

Art, where have you been? smile.gif I abandoned my 60" Pioneer Kuro when the Sharp Elite arrived on the scene. I still have a 42" Kuro in our bedroom, but that too will be gone when we move to a new house.
Sky is falling for sure.
post #354 of 412
1/15/13 at 9:42am
Quote:
The Avengers was one that I remember..
Do you remember where in the movie? I watched recently and don't remember seeing it. I'd like to go take another look, if you can remember an instance.
post #355 of 412
1/15/13 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinnie97 View Post

Sky is falling for sure.

Agreed.

Seeing Ken write those words disorientates me, showing I really have missed quite a lot in the flat panel forums.
post #356 of 412
1/15/13 at 10:00am
Still, not everyone who upgraded to the Sharp shared his observations, and its shortcomings kept it from catapulting into the #1 spot at the Value Electronics shootout.
post #357 of 412
1/15/13 at 12:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadsdsmith View Post

You are right. I have seen an 80" sharp at fry's with the interpolation set to "the young and the restless mode"wink.gif and at that size it creates all kinds of problems (I don't like frame interpolation period). I have a friend with the full array backlit version and in her home enviroment, blu rays look pretty good (frame interpolation off of course). It has the normal lcd issues, but it looks good from the right viewing distance. I do think I would want a 4k set at this size, however, because you do start to notice the screen door effect if you get within 5 or 6 feet of it. I have a 65" set now and don't see pixels until I am way closer to it than I would ever watch from, about the same time I start to see dithering. I think 75" is the max I would want at 1080p, beyond that and I see 4k as the best option. I don't see the point of these 55" 4k tvs though.

Why one earth would you ever be 5 feet from an 75-80" screen...outside of walking past it to sit down/leave the room?

Seems like a pretty goofy reason to spend thousands more on a television, imo.


James
post #358 of 412
1/15/13 at 12:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Agreed.

Seeing Ken write those words disorientates me, showing I really have missed quite a lot in the flat panel forums.

Rich, I bet if you saw a properly calibrated Elite, you would be very impressed. smile.gif
post #359 of 412
1/15/13 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Rich, I bet if you saw a properly calibrated Elite, you would be very impressed. smile.gif

If I saw a properly calibrated Elite for $2000, I'd be impressed.
post #360 of 412
1/15/13 at 2:01pm
I would've thought the Cyan problem would be fixed by now (even though VERY few people or none at all notice it). I do remember when you finally gave up the Kuro...eek.gif

I would like to see the VT50 (and soon ZT60) pitted against an elite. Only experience I have with them is at best buy and I was sure that was on some sort of torch mode
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