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Dayton releases more new subs - Page 2

post #31 of 50
1/16/13 at 9:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I spoke with MattP 5 minutes ago, PE staff, he did the driver parametrer measurements himself and stands by them for 1.94 cubic feet sealed for a Qtc of .707 and an F3 of 37.5 Hz.
He will send me those parameters, which I will model later tonight and post.
I'll be curious to see the parameters since they ones PE has posted on the product page won't give the box configs they claim.

I got these just now, when I get home will see how they model differently from the driver t-s I used.
Quote:
From: pe tech
Date: January 16, 2013, 9:19:53 AM EST
To: Mike
Subject: RE: Matt P: Please send me your measure driver parameters for my WinISD modeling Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer
Mike,
I did try to send them but I must have copied the email address wrong. You can see the specs below:
Re: 3.271 ohms
Fs: 26.24 Hz
Qts: .563
Qes: .667
Qms: 3.579
Le: 1.293 mH
Mms: 213.1 g
Vas: 2.091 Cu Ft
SPL: 83.94 dB 1W/1M
Affective Piston Diameter: 9.875"
Xmax: 19mm

These are with coils wired in series. Keep in mind that even with these specs WinISD still might show a different volume for "optimal Q" simply due to differences with software settings and how default parameters are set.

Sincerely,
Matt
Technical Support Team

for ref these are from the PE website
Quote:
Specifications: • Power handling: 600 watts RMS/1,200 watts max • Le: 1.22 mH • Impedance: 4 ohms (2 ohms/coil) • Re: 3.3 ohms • Frequency range: 20-1,000 Hz • Fs: 24.9 Hz • SPL: 87.7 dB 2.83V/1m • Vas: 2.53 cu. ft. • Qms: 3.45 • Qes: 0.71 • Qts: 0.59 • Xmax: 19 mm • Dimensions: Overall diameter: 12-1/4", Cutout: 11-1/4", Depth: 6-1/2".
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post #32 of 50
1/16/13 at 12:05pm
well when i get my subs up and going ill post back which is closer to the real performance of the driver
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post #33 of 50
1/16/13 at 12:14pm
The big question is regarding efficiency. 4db is a huge difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieattk View Post

well when i get my subs up and going ill post back which is closer to the real performance of the driver
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post #34 of 50
1/16/13 at 12:33pm
Not all that impressive. You can get more output in the same box from a $120 DVC 15.
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post #35 of 50
1/16/13 at 12:44pm
what I was saying, there is a 4 db difference between the 2 listed specs. Of course it will model badly compared to other 12 inch drivers if you assume its efficiency is 84. Efficiency is often in the least accurate spec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Not all that impressive. You can get more output in the same box from a $120 DVC 15.
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post #36 of 50
1/16/13 at 1:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The big question is regarding efficiency. 4db is a huge difference.
It doesn't matter if the sheet got it wrong, a good box program will accurately calculate the sensitivity anyway. You do have to be careful with dual coil drivers that you enter the Re and Le based on how you're going to wire it.
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post #37 of 50
1/16/13 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

The big question is regarding efficiency. 4db is a huge difference.

spl is the same thats the only thing that is the same.
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post #38 of 50
1/16/13 at 6:29pm
I actually asked to see if the spl was a typo, it's not
Quote:
From: pe tech
Subject: RE: Matt P: Please send me your measure driver parameters for my WinISD modeling Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer
Date: January 16, 2013 11:54:00 AM EST
To: Mike
Mike,

The difference is due to a 1W/1m versus 2.83V/1m SPL. Also, this is listing a derived SPL with WT3, versus a measured SPL.

Sincerely,

Matt

Technical Support Team

From: Mike
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 11:36 AM
To: pe tech
Subject: Re: Matt P: Please send me your measure driver parameters for my WinISD modeling Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer

The spl seems low, 83.94 vs 87.7 from what I had before, is that a typo?
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post #39 of 50
1/16/13 at 6:53pm
Who cares what the listed SPL is? I never look at spl for subs.

It displaces 1.9L at full stroke. Also, it looks to me like it takes about 3.5 cu ft to get a good response out of it. My point is that in a box that size you can fit a 15 (should have been more explicit there) that displaces 2.5L for less money.

It may make sense in a horn. IDK. It also may have an under rated X-max like the 18HO. That remains to be seen.
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post #40 of 50
1/16/13 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post


It may make sense in a horn. .
Qes is way too high for a horn.
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post #41 of 50
1/16/13 at 7:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

Who cares what the listed SPL is? I never look at spl for subs.

It displaces 1.9L at full stroke. Also, it looks to me like it takes about 3.5 cu ft to get a good response out of it. My point is that in a box that size you can fit a 15 (should have been more explicit there) that displaces 2.5L for less money.

Higher sensitivity subwoofers require larger enclosure volumes for the same amount of LFE. I completely agree. biggrin.gif
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post #42 of 50
1/17/13 at 6:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

Qes is way too high for a horn.

That's a shame.
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post #43 of 50
1/17/13 at 6:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nograveconcern View Post

That's a shame.
Not really. The beauty of horns is that they don't need high priced uber drivers with ultra long xmax. And with the surround configuration of the Ultimax it would be very difficult to mount in in a horn anyway.
Quote:
Higher sensitivity subwoofers require larger enclosure volumes for the same amount of LFE.
Higher sensitivity is usually achieved via lower Qes, and as often as not that results in a smaller box, not larger. But lower Qes also tends to result in higher f3. So while it's true that higher sensitivity drivers may require a larger box, it's not a hard and fast rule that they will.
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post #44 of 50
1/17/13 at 9:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

I spoke with MattP 5 minutes ago, PE staff, he did the driver parametrer measurements himself and stands by them for 1.94 cubic feet sealed for a Qtc of .707 and an F3 of 37.5 Hz.
He will send me those parameters, which I will model later tonight and post.
I'll be curious to see the parameters since they ones PE has posted on the product page won't give the box configs they claim.

I got these just now, when I get home will see how they model differently from the driver t-s I used.
Quote:
From: pe tech
Date: January 16, 2013, 9:19:53 AM EST
To: Mike
Subject: RE: Matt P: Please send me your measure driver parameters for my WinISD modeling Dayton Audio UM12-22 12" Ultimax DVC Subwoofer
Mike,
I did try to send them but I must have copied the email address wrong. You can see the specs below:
Re: 3.271 ohms
Fs: 26.24 Hz
Qts: .563
Qes: .667
Qms: 3.579
Le: 1.293 mH
Mms: 213.1 g
Vas: 2.091 Cu Ft
SPL: 83.94 dB 1W/1M
Affective Piston Diameter: 9.875"
Xmax: 19mm

These are with coils wired in series. Keep in mind that even with these specs WinISD still might show a different volume for "optimal Q" simply due to differences with software settings and how default parameters are set.

Sincerely,
Matt
Technical Support Team

for ref these are from the PE website
Quote:
Specifications: • Power handling: 600 watts RMS/1,200 watts max • Le: 1.22 mH • Impedance: 4 ohms (2 ohms/coil) • Re: 3.3 ohms • Frequency range: 20-1,000 Hz • Fs: 24.9 Hz • SPL: 87.7 dB 2.83V/1m • Vas: 2.53 cu. ft. • Qms: 3.45 • Qes: 0.71 • Qts: 0.59 • Xmax: 19 mm • Dimensions: Overall diameter: 12-1/4", Cutout: 11-1/4", Depth: 6-1/2".

Then there is the official spec sheet from Dayton......
Dayton%2520Audio%2520WinISD%2520issue.jpg

too busy last night to enter the measured driver specs in.....will do tonight and model
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post #45 of 50
1/17/13 at 9:37am
Doesn't make much difference


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post #46 of 50
1/17/13 at 7:19pm
Here is my model in 2.25 cu ft sealed box, my desired size, 17.5" x 17.5" x 18.25" deep.
I can't get the same "good" model that Matt did....
(I'm also having trouble attach my model and driver file as zip file...)

I'm actually ok with this model and unless someone chimes in and teaches me why not to use it as I plan to, I'll build a 2.25 cu ft sealed box as my 3rd subwoofer usage.

Purple is "official" specs, yellow is "measured"
spl @ 450 watts
12%2520driver%2520spl%2520meas.jpg

cone excursion @ 450 watts
12%2520driver%2520cone%2520meas.jpg
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post #47 of 50
1/26/13 at 5:38pm
Anybody do more experimenting with these or have any further results on what implementation has been like?
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post #48 of 50
1/27/13 at 4:45am
From my posting in HTS, got this response.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dayton Audio Tech;584743 
First of all I am glad to see there is a great interest in our Dayton Audio UltiMax subwoofers. We believe that they are one of the “best bang for the buck” in the industry.

I am writing in an attempt to clear up the discrepancies in parameters and enclosure data. It should be noted that Sd of the 12” UltiMax (UM12-22) was incorrectly stated at 590 cm² when in fact the Sd ≈ 490 cm². This mistake caused a drastic change in the poster’s calculated (or better yet miscalculated) parameters in which he stated and posted erroneously. This along with the fact that no fill or damping of the enclosure was included in the box modeling (by a few posters') caused the confusion.

To further explain:
We use BassBox 6 Pro for all low frequency driver enclosure modeling with “Normal” fill as the default damping setting. Normal damping although not specified by Harris Tech is typically ½ lb per ft³ of Dacron, Acousta-Stuf polyfill etc. and I have recently done some actual measurements on enclosure/driver combinations with and without fill with obtained very similar results. Below is a comparison of the UM12-22 in an optimum enclosure with no damping, an optimum enclosure with normal damping and our recommended sealed enclosure.

Note that the Sd of the UM12-22 is ≈ 490 cm²

Here is the recommended sealed enclosure for the UM10-22


Hope this clears things up and of course please contact Dayton Audio if you have any concerns or questions.

BTW - In a month or so we will be offering a 15" UltiMax subwoofer as well.

Regards,
Dayton Audio technical staff

Based on that I re-did my WinISD model
Quote:
Qa, absorption losses. These are produced by losses in enclosure. Any stuffing will increase the absorption loss. With no stuffing inside the box, 100 is typical.
Heavily stuffed enclosure has this about 3-5.

Here it is, and looks like 2 cu ft works fine with stuffing!
(Yellow is the driver modeled with stuffing using measured paramaters)

Edited by mtbdudex - 1/27/13 at 11:04am
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post #49 of 50
1/27/13 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post

From my posting in HTS, got this response.
Based on that I re-did my WinISD model
Here it is, and looks like 2 cu ft works fine with stuffing!
+1. If you look at the Qtc of a stuffed versus unstuffed box you'll see a reduction of up to about 0.1.
Note that if you model the driver in an unstuffed box large enough to arrive at the same Qtc they won't be the same, so stuffing does not duplicate the FR of a larger box, only the Qtc.
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post #50 of 50
1/30/13 at 7:49am
Besides me are there others looking for sub flat pack kit from EricH on the 12” UltiMax (UM12-22)?

My original idea to use the Dayton Audio TIT320C-4 12" Titanic Mk III Subwoofer got canned when the ship date got pushed from Early Jan-2013 to Feb-2013, and now I see that ship date is now June-2013.

Hoping others demand make it worthwhile for EricH to make 2 cu ft boxes for the 12” UltiMax.
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