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I'm a beginner; I could use advice on getting started

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
So, I've never done calibration before and have barely begun learning what's necessary to properly calibrate monitors/HDTVs. I've found a guide that seems to offer a good crash course. It's long, and I have limited time right now, so taking it in pieces. In that guide certain h/w and s/w is recommended. However, reading AVS I've gathered I might be better served by going with ChromaPure's D3 or D3 Pro bundle and AVSHD709. My intent is to calibrate an Eizo FS2333 and a Panasonic GT25. I thought it might be best to 'learn' things by doing an ICC profile for the Eizo before fumbling around in service menus. I run W7-64, my PC uses an Nvidia GTX 570 as it's display device. The FS2333 is it's primary display connected via DVI, and I have a DVI>HDMI cable going to the GT25.

So, in terms of advise, any is welcome, but more specifically I'd like to know if my current selection of h/w and s/w is suitable to my needs. Especially concerning whether or not I should go with the D3 or D3 Pro. In addition I've read a few posts where people bought these from 'Tom' on the AVS forum. Does Tom offer these tools at a discounted price or something? Are there any promos available for Chromapure or shopping links I could use which would benefit AVS?
post #2 of 18
Greetings

If you want to seriously learn about the process, you could go to TLVEXP.com and start reading the articles there. Then pop over to the tutorial section and watch the videos ...

And if you want to get right down to the meat of learning how to do this ... a 5 hour+ Video Training series is also available for a fee.

Come back here when you have questions ...

Regards
post #3 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastQuestion View Post

So, I've never done calibration before and have barely begun learning what's necessary to properly calibrate monitors/HDTVs. I've found a guide that seems to offer a good crash course. It's long, and I have limited time right now, so taking it in pieces. In that guide certain h/w and s/w is recommended. However, reading AVS I've gathered I might be better served by going with ChromaPure's D3 or D3 Pro bundle and AVSHD709. My intent is to calibrate an Eizo FS2333 and a Panasonic GT25. I thought it might be best to 'learn' things by doing an ICC profile for the Eizo before fumbling around in service menus. I run W7-64, my PC uses an Nvidia GTX 570 as it's display device. The FS2333 is it's primary display connected via DVI, and I have a DVI>HDMI cable going to the GT25.
So, in terms of advise, any is welcome, but more specifically I'd like to know if my current selection of h/w and s/w is suitable to my needs. Especially concerning whether or not I should go with the D3 or D3 Pro. In addition I've read a few posts where people bought these from 'Tom' on the AVS forum. Does Tom offer these tools at a discounted price or something? Are there any promos available for Chromapure or shopping links I could use which would benefit AVS?

I thought the same thing about that guide, but actually is not that long. Once you follow the step by step instructions 1 or 2 times, it gets like second nature. I suggest you save your money and buy a ID3 to use with HCFR. Theres a calibration report for a Samsung using HCFR and chromapure for comparison . I cant remember in what forum, but one was done with Chromapure and the other with HCFR, and the difference was very very minute. So hear me out and dont waste your money.
post #4 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastQuestion View Post

Especially concerning whether or not I should go with the D3 or D3 Pro.

I'll focus on your meter choice.... I recommend you look at a Spectrometer, either used i1Pro Rev D or new i1Pro2 at the minimum.

The i1Pro Spectro is still used by many Professional Calibrators.

See why a Spectro here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter

http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/

Feel free to PM me as well if you have any questions..
post #5 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

I'll focus on your meter choice.... I recommend you look at a Spectrometer, either used i1Pro Rev D or new i1Pro2 at the minimum.
The i1Pro Spectro is still used by many Professional Calibrators.
See why a Spectro here:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1373556/i1-pro-or-d3-if-you-could-only-have-one-meter
http://www.tlvexp.ca/2012/04/do-calibration-tables-really-work-for-tri-stim-devices/
Feel free to PM me as well if you have any questions..

The i1Pro 2 is way over my budget. I'm not at a point where I intend to do this professionally and none of my work/hobbies require complete color accuracy. I just want to calibrate my displays to better enjoy them. A little drift slightly skewing calibration over time doesn't seem like that big of a deal to me. I was just wondering if the D3 Pro is worth the extra money in regards to improved PQ.
post #6 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

used i1Pro Rev D .

My #1 Recommendation is still the i1Pro Rev D (even used).

used i1Pro Rev D go for $300 $250* to $450..... if you are patient, you can find one in your budget since you have been looking at the i1D3 series.

*recently a user got one at $250,

Please do read through all the posts on the links I posted above.. it's more than "a little drift".. how will you know if a i1D3 is accurate on your display... anyways, it's covered in those links and will give you the hard data.
Edited by turbe - 12/29/12 at 4:46pm
post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

My #1 Recommendation is still the i1Pro Rev D (even used).
used i1Pro Rev D go for $300 $250* to $450..... if you are patient, you can find one in your budget since you have been looking at the i1D3 series.
*recently a user got one at $250,
Please do read through all the posts on the links I posted above.. it's more than "a little drift".. how will you know if a i1D3 is accurate on your display... anyways, it's covered in those links and will give you the hard data.

I read them and reread them since it seemed I didn't understand the material. I understand colorimeters have limitations, but I didn't read anything in those two links which stated that the inaccuracy present in the device would noticeable impact perceived PQ to where it would be visibly inferior to a calibration done with the more accurate spectro. Comparisons in the first link were talking about being close to reference devices. I don't need that kind of accuracy. I just want decent PQ. Maybe I lack the understanding necessary to know how much the tables provided in the second link pertain to perceivable differences in PQ. However, even with those tables those tests aren't done with the D3 or D3 Pro. They're not even done on displays similar to my own. Why should I assume a colorimeter from a different manufacturer to be used on displays with different filters/AG/tech would have results even remotely similar? All that article indicates is that the C6 is inaccurate compared to spectro when measuring certain LCDs.

In fact, in that second article there's evidence which would indicate that my FS2333 may be just fine. Panasonic has used IPS panels in their LCDs for some time. LG/Samsung/Sony typically stick to VA panels. Does panel type affect colorimeter results? idk. Maybe? VA panels have shift from center and out. TN panels shift top to bottom. IPS panels are completely uniform. So are Plasmas. Perhaps it's just coincidence that it was only displays with VA panels that had issues. Needless to say, all those articles seem to prove is that spectro are always accurate and the C6 colorimeter has issues with accuracy on VA panels. Neither one of them indicates that the D3 wouldn't provide enough accuracy to calibrate displays for decent PQ. If your recommendation included information which did, then I would, without hesitation, be looking at procuring an i1pro Rev D.
post #8 of 18
Honestly, creating an ICC profile won't teach you much at all about calibrating. It's pretty much an automated process with little user input unless you can adjust the monitor's WB controls. Even then, you're usually only asked to adjust contrast, brightness, and color of full white.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastQuestion View Post


In fact, in that second article there's evidence which would indicate that my FS2333 may be just fine. Panasonic has used IPS panels in their LCDs for some time. LG/Samsung/Sony typically stick to VA panels. Does panel type affect colorimeter results? idk. Maybe? VA panels have shift from center and out. TN panels shift top to bottom. IPS panels are completely uniform. So are Plasmas. Perhaps it's just coincidence that it was only displays with VA panels that had issues. Needless to say, all those articles seem to prove is that spectro are always accurate and the C6 colorimeter has issues with accuracy on VA panels. Neither one of them indicates that the D3 wouldn't provide enough accuracy to calibrate displays for decent PQ. If your recommendation included information which did, then I would, without hesitation, be looking at procuring an i1pro Rev D.

well, you have the information now, though I think you have misinterpreted some, you have an good idea on all this, even with the i1D3 series' next generation design.. Not only my own recommendation(s), but also a "heads-up".. I'm not trying to sell you an i1Pro and in fact, I have been encouraging enthusiasts to buy these from the secondary market for a long time... I'm a strong advocate for the Spectro and this is based on my own experiences and a lot of input and data from others. There's also the track record of the i1Pro, no meter that is common for display calibration <$2000 can even come close to that history. We don't even want to get into the i1D3

Also, you could always add a Spectro into the mix in the future, perhaps an opportunity will come your way and there will be enough doubt about the i1D3 on your display that you take advantage of this opportunity.. Then, you could profile the i1D3 to the Spectro on your actual display(s).... Many with a Spectro did start with just the colorimeter...


All this is mainly for your GT25, For your EIZO, I think you will want to take advantage of it's LUT ability (if any) and be more concerned about meter support for the MAC/PC software you select to create the LUT data for it, though I'm not familiar with that EIZO model or the supporting compatible applications for it - you may want to check into basICColor v5 and EIZO's ColorNavigator and see if they support your FS2333...
Edited by turbe - 12/30/12 at 4:23pm
post #10 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

well, you have the information now, though I think you have misinterpreted some, you have an good idea on all this, even with the i1D3 series' next generation design.. Not only my own recommendation(s), but also a "heads-up".. I'm not trying to sell you an i1Pro and in fact, I have been encouraging enthusiasts to buy these from the secondary market for a long time... I'm a strong advocate for the Spectro and this is based on my own experiences and a lot of input and data from others. There's also the track record of the i1Pro, no meter that is common for display calibration <$2000 can even come close to that history. We don't even want to get into the i1D3
Also, you could always add a Spectro into the mix in the future, perhaps an opportunity will come your way and there will be enough doubt about the i1D3 on your display that you take advantage of this opportunity.. Then, you could profile the i1D3 to the Spectro on your actual display(s).... Many with a Spectro did start with just the colorimeter...
All this is mainly for your GT25, For your EIZO, I think you will want to take advantage of it's LUT ability (if any) and be more concerned about meter support for the MAC/PC software you select to create the LUT data for it, though I'm not familiar with that EIZO model or the supporting compatible applications for it - you may want to check into basICColor v5 and EIZO's ColorNavigator and see if they support your FS2333...

I have no doubt I've misinterpreted some of the information provided. I still have a lot to learn before I completely understand the discussions you took the time to link.

I admit I would gain some peace of mind if I were to get a i1pro rev D. However, the price of a new instrument is prohibitively expensive. Buying used is possible, it's just something I've never been comfortable with doing unless it's local. There's an increased risk when buying used. A primary concern for me is that I lack the knowledge and experience that would be needed to determine whether or not a device like the i1Pro is functioning up-to-spec. So the only assurance I would have that the device works as it should be the the word of the individual who sold it to me. The wait time in finding a seller would also prevent taking advantage of the holiday sales going on for the next few weeks.

It's quite likely I'll end up owning an i1Pro in the future. If only because the end result of this interest in calibration is likely to end with ISF certification and earning some extra cash on the side.

As to my GT25 the first link you provided leads to a post by Tom and that post links to this which infers that a i1D3 calibrated into an i1D3 Pro can accurately measure a Panasonic plasma and that this accuracy seems to transfer in measuring different makes and models of Plasmas. I see several ways in which I may not be viewing these comments correctly. For one, it was not specified that the i1D3 Pro being sold by Tom behaves in the same way as the one specifically calibrated to the Panasonic plasma. In addition, given that Panasonic holds the patents to Pioneers Kuro tech these two displays are likely more similar to each other than those produced by Samsung or LG. As such the extent of how far this accuracy can transfer may be more limited than Toms test seems to indicate. What I find most promising here though is that Tom is the one making the i1D3 Pros and given that his adhoc test involves a Panasonic plasma as reference chances seem good that his custom tables will be more than sufficient in enabling accurate calibration of my GT25.

As to the FS2333, prad.de shows it has a 10-bit LUT. Only the ColorEdge line of Eizo monitors can use ColorNavigator software. Easypix is Eizos solution for their other monitors and unfortunately does not support third-party sensors. I ran across a review which stated BasiCColor v5 is able to perform h/w calibration successfully with the FS2333. I don't have the cash to buy a license for it right now and might just stick with a s/w solution or use the service menu.
post #11 of 18
Quote:
As to the FS2333, prad.de shows it has a 10-bit LUT. Only the ColorEdge line of Eizo monitors can use ColorNavigator software. Easypix is Eizos solution for their other monitors and unfortunately does not support third-party sensors. I ran across a review which stated BasiCColor v5 is able to perform h/w calibration successfully with the FS2333. I don't have the cash to buy a license for it right now and might just stick with a s/w solution or use the service menu.

I was just reading about this, it's seems like Eizo hasn't fully opened / Licensed their API for all of their models.. that's too bad.. They should have better meter support for all of their software solutions (for all their models).. having the LUT ability would be by far the best option on your Eizo. I can't believe that they only support that spyder, it amazes me that they don't allow you to take fully advantage of the LUT in that model with a spectro even.
Quote:
If only because the end result of this interest in calibration is likely to end with ISF certification and earning some extra cash on the side.

You may want to also check out these Threads (perhaps when you are ready in the future):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1265755

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1250523


You could start out with an I1 Pro meter (since you do plan to go Professional) and software, start working on your own Displays, searching for information on the specific display model(s) you have etc... you can ask questions here in regards to your calibration runs.

Some more links for you:


(pay attention to Michael TLV's posts in this Thread)
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1064325


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1067744


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=912713


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1140278


I recommend you start as an enthusiast/part time PRO.. if you feel you will jump in immediately (with your own business) and make a good full time income, you will most likely be disappointed as many have found out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chad Billheimer - ISF/THX Touring Calibrator 
A person with home theater as their #1 hobby helps, as does a big dose of self confidence and determination.
post #12 of 18
Greetings

The attrition rate in the Video Calibration business is something higher than 90%. If you attended a class with 10 people in it ... 9 of those will be gone in one to two years. Most try to make a business of this for all the wrong reasons and they just don't do their homework.

Regards
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV View Post

Greetings
The attrition rate in the Video Calibration business is something higher than 90%. If you attended a class with 10 people in it ... 9 of those will be gone in one to two years. Most try to make a business of this for all the wrong reasons and they just don't do their homework.
Regards

I wouldn't have guessed 90%, but it doesn't surprise me. I'm not interested in making a business out of this. Calibration is interesting, but I don't find it interesting enough to make a career out of it. A few jobs on the side would provide some extra cash. Network out to some small businesses, word of mouth, etc and I could probably get 2-3 jobs per month in? Basically, it'd be a hobby I can profit from occasionally. Have it pay for itself and even fuel some of my other interests.
post #14 of 18
Don't count on it.. Well if you have a car that get really good gas mileage and don't mind driving a couple hours one way.. seems like there would be a lot of local work, but the average joe just has no clue.. hell i can't even get friend interested enough to let me calibrate their sets for free!
post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

.. hell i can't even get friend interested enough to let me calibrate their sets for free!

ok, that's just not right!!
time for an intervention.. invite yourself over smile.gif
post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by turbe View Post

ok, that's just not right!!
time for an intervention.. invite yourself over smile.gif
Well, the guy who's house I am at most of the time, I did just that, I could not stand looking at the freaking TV!
I was at my cousins house who had just bought a new Sony and I offered to calibrate it for them and I quote "Why it is brand new, it looks great" Just said.. Oh never mind! and changed the subject..
post #17 of 18
approach it this way,.. explain you would like to calibrate that model for experience.. if he doesn't like it after you are done and as spend a week with it calibrated, you will come back and set it to what was before..

biggrin.gif
post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 
I'll definitely have to look through all that Turbe. Thanks for sharing those links.
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