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Single Subwoofer vs. Dual Subwoofers - Page 2

post #31 of 68
I continually read about putting the sub in the listening position. If your listening position is in the middle of a couch, do you prop the 110 pound sub on the couch? Do you remove the couch? If you do remove the couch will that change the acoustics in the room? Silly questions I know, but have never seen an answer regarding this...
post #32 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by walke108 View Post

I continually read about putting the sub in the listening position. If your listening position is in the middle of a couch, do you prop the 110 pound sub on the couch? Do you remove the couch? If you do remove the couch will that change the acoustics in the room? Silly questions I know, but have never seen an answer regarding this...

I'm sure putting it on the floor in front of the couch where you sit would work pretty much the same.
post #33 of 68
I actually put mine on the couch lol.
post #34 of 68
A couple of questions maybe you guys can answer.

1. If your room is rectangular except for an open wall on the right side, would putting 2 subs up front, one on either side of a TV help? I understand from the previous discussion not so with a closed room, but what about the above situation with a pretty much open right wall?

2. How do you do a sub crawl with measuring equipment for 2 subs? Do one first with the subwoofer in the LP then the 2nd in the LP while the 1st sub in the proper position you measured earlier?
post #35 of 68

Not to hijack this thread...but seems like a good thread to post what I've been wondering.

 

Are 3 potentially better than 2 or do you really need 4 to get better than 2 ?

post #36 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post

Not to hijack this thread...but seems like a good thread to post what I've been wondering.

Are 3 potentially better than 2 or do you really need 4 to get better than 2 ?
Odd or even makes no difference. Generally, the more the better.
post #37 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by beezar View Post

A couple of questions maybe you guys can answer.
1. If your room is rectangular except for an open wall on the right side, would putting 2 subs up front, one on either side of a TV help? I understand from the previous discussion not so with a closed room, but what about the above situation with a pretty much open right wall?
2. How do you do a sub crawl with measuring equipment for 2 subs? Do one first with the subwoofer in the LP then the 2nd in the LP while the 1st sub in the proper position you measured earlier?

My living room area is exactly like that - L shape. I've got the smoothest frequency response with one on the forward right corner and the other one on the aft left corner. Due to WAF & blocking the main door, I've now shifted the aft sub to the forward left corner and EQ the dual subs with Antimode. The result after EQ is almost similar to what I have previously.

Sub crawl only works with single sub.
post #38 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Sub crawl only works with single sub.
+1. Once you've placed the first sub via the crawl placing the second is a trial and error proposition. As with yours usually the best results are when the subs are placed as far away from each other as possible.
post #39 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Odd or even makes no difference. Generally, the more the better.

I agree. If you read white papers on proper sub placement, they all show a rectanglular room with no furniture, no openings and have the ability to have subs placed anywhere. Something most of us don't have. In most situations, you have to use trial and error to find the best placement.

I've read many papers that state you should never sit in the middle of a room and yet, their diagrams typically show the listener sitting in the middle of the room. They show the optimal placement of subs for a sitting position that they don't recommend.
post #40 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

If you read white papers on proper sub placement, they all show a rectanglular room with no furniture, no openings and have the ability to have subs placed anywher..

And I doubt the creators of all these white papers are married.....no WAF. tongue.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/4/13 at 9:14am
post #41 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by toofast68 View Post


Are 3 potentially better than 2 or do you really need 4 to get better than 2 ?

Two subs are better than one, three subs are better than two and four subwoofers are the optimum number to have in your home theater.

Dr. Floyd Toole has been an invaluable asset to the sound reproduction industry and has devoted a great amount of his life to understanding how sound propagates in a home environment*. Todd Welti did a lot of experimentation with subwoofer placement, numbers, and bass sound quality. The resulting whitepaper on the topic was a culmination of countless tests and acoustical models of playing with multiple subwoofers in different locations in a room to improve bass response over a much wider listening area. In the end, Dr. Toole and Todd Welti concluded that the most ideal scenario for bass reproduction is to have one subwoofer located at the midpoint of all four walls. This configuration displayed the least amount of variation in bass response from seat to seat. Alternately, four subwoofers can be used in each corner.

post #42 of 68
I'm curious for most people, just how many subs are truly required? I am ordering 2 Klipsch RW-12D's and initially figured that should be more then enough for most home theater applications. But after reading this it sounds like most of the time people recommend 4.

My basement is unfinished right now, and I'm not sure if I'll close off a dedicated media room, or leave it open so I can have an entertainment area with a pool table and still be able to watch TV if a game is on, or crank up the music for a party. It's about 14 feet wide, 8 foot ceilings and total length is 35 feet.

So while I understand that to get the best possible sound having 4 subs is ideal, for most people who aren't audiophiles and who just like to watch movies with good sound, wouldn't 2 relatively powerful subs like the RW-12D be more then adequate? Is there really a NEED to have 4?
post #43 of 68

Hot Dang - just added a third - can't wait to fire it up and see how she runs!!

post #44 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby2478 View Post

So while I understand that to get the best possible sound having 4 subs is ideal, for most people who aren't audiophiles and who just like to watch movies with good sound, wouldn't 2 relatively powerful subs like the RW-12D be more then adequate? Is there really a NEED to have 4?
It's not about power, it's about smooth response throughout the room. The more you have the better the result, though diminishing returns set in at more than four. Two less expensive subs will work better than one more expensive one, and by the same token four less expensive subs will work better than two more expensive subs, providing all you're giving up with the less expensive subs is power and output capability and not frequency response.
post #45 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post

It's not about power, it's about smooth response throughout the room. The more you have the better the result, though diminishing returns set in at more than four. Two less expensive subs will work better than one more expensive one, and by the same token four less expensive subs will work better than two more expensive subs, providing all you're giving up with the less expensive subs is power and output capability and not frequency response.

Right, it's about filling in dead spots not cranking up the volume. I understand the logic for having more then 1 sub, it makes sense. I've seen some reviews / articles where they say the difference in frequency response and more consistent sound without dead spots, that going from 1 to 2 subs achieves probably 80% of what you're trying to accomplish. You get your biggest bang for the buck there, and the biggest return on investment. Once you go above 2 and get 3 or 4, while you are definitely noticing an improvement, it's open to interpretation if this extra 20% is worth the cost of those extra 2 subs. A true stereo head will say you have to have 4, anything less is garbage. But I'm curious if most people would listen to 2 and likely be plenty satisfied with the results? Understanding 4 will sound better, but if the difference is only marginal, and to a vast majority of people 2 would likely sound great, then the benefit might not outweigh the cost of buying 2 more subs.
post #46 of 68
Here's a question I'm trying to figure out. Will more subs give me more tactile feeling at any given output? I'm not looking for 120db+ but rather the "in you chest" feeling at all reasonable listening levels.
post #47 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post

I'm not looking for 120db+ but rather the "in you chest" feeling at all reasonable listening levels.
The two pretty much go hand in hand. High impact requires high volume as well as deep extension. But multiple subs can help anyway, as you won't get any impact from a frequency that's not there because it's been erased by a room mode.
post #48 of 68
Here's a 2vs1 question I'd like to ask. Dual-PB12-NSD vs PB12-Plus. Only $50 between them.

I'm guessing the dual PB12 NSD would have better midrange bass in the 50's and 80's and the PB12-Plus will have better <20 bass?
post #49 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak Gara View Post

Here's a 2vs1 question I'd like to ask. Dual-PB12-NSD vs PB12-Plus. Only $50 between them.
I'm guessing the dual PB12 NSD would have better midrange bass in the 50's and 80's and the PB12-Plus will have better <20 bass?
What do their respective SPL charts show? There should be no need to guess.
post #50 of 68
Sadly they only list per speaker in the dual setup. It's even the same file location for the image of the single PB12NSD and dual PB12NSD.

Dual PB12NSD


PB12-Plus
post #51 of 68
I had a Bic V1220, and I just recently bought an Outlaw LFM-1 EX. The Outlaw is obviously a much better sub than the Bic, so would it be beneficial to run these two subs together? I have the outlaw in the front left corner and I can place the Bic next to the couch. Would I set the level lower on the Bic since it can't keep it with the Outlaw?
post #52 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak Gara View Post

Sadly they only list per speaker in the dual setup. It's even the same file location for the image of the single PB12NSD and dual PB12NSD.
The measured response isn't going to change with one versus two measured anechoic. The Plus does go lower with the low tuning options, IMO lower than is really needed.
Quote:
I had a Bic V1220, and I just recently bought an Outlaw LFM-1 EX. The Outlaw is obviously a much better sub than the Bic, so would it be beneficial to run these two subs together? I have the outlaw in the front left corner and I can place the Bic next to the couch. Would I set the level lower on the Bic since it can't keep it with the Outlaw?
Try it. In most cases even when mismatched two subs will be better than one. Set the Bic level high enough to make it useful without reaching the point of distortion.
post #53 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by busbeepbeep View Post

I had a Bic V1220, and I just recently bought an Outlaw LFM-1 EX. The Outlaw is obviously a much better sub than the Bic, so would it be beneficial to run these two subs together? I have the outlaw in the front left corner and I can place the Bic next to the couch. Would I set the level lower on the Bic since it can't keep it with the Outlaw?

I run mismatched subs, the Lfm-1 ex and an old Mirage prestige S10. I like it. Going by ear, as I have no measuring tools, it smooths out the mid- bass along the entire couch and as I have them both nearfield flanking my couch, the tactile feel is increased as well. If I ever end up buying a second EX, I'll probably still keep the 10", and throw it somewhere in the back of the room, more closely following the Geddes approach.

Some members claim it can affect overall sound quality, but I haven't personally heard anything negative, again just going by ear. Sounds great and I get most of the positive aspects of a multiple sub setup. Just remember to play around with placement to get the best effect, use any EQ software you may have, etc. It took me awhile to properly dial them in so they sounded best.
post #54 of 68
Thanks. I'll get the Bic hooked up. Just need to pick up a Y-adapter. I have a Pioneer 1120-K though, so I won't get any sub EQ from the MCACC. I do have a Radio Shack meter though. Eventually I'll try to hook it up to the laptop and get some readings.
post #55 of 68
a good way to demonstrate the peaks and valleys in your room with a single sub, is to play a test tone (can be found on internet and downloaded to mp3 player) at some reasonable level, maybe 80-85 dbs (don't want to burn up your sub). Then slowly walk around the room. You can use your ears or better yet, have an spl meter in your hand. It's pretty startling how you can move a few feet and go from loud to almost silent. This is the effect of the waves bouncing off the walls and ceiling, and either reinforcing (making a peak) or cancelling out (valley/quiet). You will notice the lower the frequency, the further apart the spacing of loud/quiet areas due to longer wavelength.
post #56 of 68
TL;DR version: Two 8" subs or one 10"/12" sub given a $400-$600 budget and a ~2000sqft room.

Ok so I'm in the market due to a dead sub (won't turn on) and I've been reading the forums for the last few days and then I happened upon this thread. My price range is on the order of $400-$600. My room is ~2000sqt and in general I'm limited to a sub / subs that are no bigger than 22" x 18" (WxD) because of the likely placement locations. 99% of all my use will be HT.

So my question is: should I get two Outlaw M8's (or equivalent) or one LFM-1 Plus (or equivalent). WAF is not a big factor, but even I don't want some big honking box. The room is a bit cluttered already and the fact that I spent money on a Sunfire should be a clue that I'm not into huge subs. To be clear, I'm not really asking for specific sub recommendations. I know there are a ton of threads discussing that. My question is two 8" or one 10"/12" given what i have to spend, what i use it for, and the room space I'm in.


Thanks.
post #57 of 68
2 12". And that can easily be done with your necessary specs. including budget.
post #58 of 68
I knew someone would say that smile.gif But really for the price, it seems hard to get small 12" subs. If they are small they are $$$, if they are $ they are large. But if you have a brand you can PM me (to keep this threat on-topipc) I'd appreciate it.
post #59 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jumperalex View Post

I knew someone would say that smile.gif But really for the price, it seems hard to get small 12" subs. If they are small they are $$$, if they are $ they are large. But if you have a brand you can PM me (to keep this threat on-topipc) I'd appreciate it.
Bic F12 is 15W x 17.5D. 2 for $400 and will have plenty of output for a room your size. They are not super accurate but are fine for HT. It goes as low as the M8 and has 75 more watts. Many of the forum members have them so it is a proven performer.
Edited by Bond 007 - 1/8/13 at 3:08pm
post #60 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Bic F12 is 15W x 17.5D. 2 for $400 and will have plenty of output for a room your size. They are not super accurate but are fine for HT. It goes as low as the M8 and has 75 more watts. Many of the forum members have them so it is a proven performer.

Huh? According to Amazon the Bic F12 is 22"x22"x21"
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