TV technology preference for viewing old SD archives

For me, it came down to splitting hairs between a Panasonic LCD U22 series and Sony LCD EX500 series, nether of which have LED backlights but the older CFL. These seemed to my eye to have the smallest tendency to motion smearing (which drives me up a wall more than any other flat screen drawback vs CRT). I have the Panasonic in one room and the Sony in another. All image processing features like "tru motion" are disabled in both, all the settings are locked down in manual mode. Each television has different strengths with SD material, which is most of my collection.

If the SD recording is really superb, the IPS screen in the Panasonic can bring it to life with a vividness approaching CRT, an almost three-dimensional quality which is really something. The IPS screen has incredibly fast response time, which is particularly noticeable playing animated cartoons via analog input (the Sony is great with live action analog feed, but smears animated material like crazy unless using the HDMI inputs). Unfortunately, Panasonic color tracking, color consistency and color adjustments leave a lot to be desired and it gets really tiresome having to adjust the color settings for each and every recording. Getting the Panasonic to show accurate fleshtones, particularly darker shades, is much more difficult than it should be. At this point I reserve the Panasonic for HD programming or commercially-produced DVDs, I've lost patience with the constant futzing required for other sources.

The Sony can't quite reproduce the film-like, cinematic feel of the Panasonic, its viewing angles aren't nearly as good, and it performs far better with HDMI input than analog, but is very easy to dial into consistent, realistic color and accurate fleshtones. The Sony is a much more livable day-to-day at displaying a wide variety of SD sources, be they good, bad or indifferent quality. I haven't had to readjust my initial custom color settings in the 18 months I've owned it.

I don't think either brand sells higher-end sets like these with CFL backlight anymore: just about everything has moved to LED. I have not been able to test the newer LED iterations of my televisions with my own SD sources, so can't vouch an informed opinion on the current models.

My parents settled on a top Samsung 40" with LED backlight, it has a very punchy picture and fares surprisingly well with SD. But the color reproduction is variable, and the odd system Samsung uses to shut down portions of the backlight (actually edgelights) is disconcerting when viewing dark scenes like sides of the stage in concert videos. Implementation of LED backlighting seems to vary from set to set, even within the same lineup, so performance prediction is a real crapshoot unless you drag the thing home and test it with your own videos. The near-complete loss of analog inputs and limited number of HDMI inputs on this years models (all brands) is very frustrating.

Before opting for my CFL Panasonic and Sony, I did buy and return a couple of Samsung CFLs, a couple of LG CFLs, an LG with LED, and an LG plasma. All of them had issues with either inconsistent color reproduction or obviously distracting motion smear with SD sources. I was especially disappointed by the plasma, for which I had high hopes, thinking it would do much better than the LCDs. I was wrong.

My previous CRT points of reference were Proton monitors and high-end Sony Trinitrons. I've yet to find a flat screen that can hold a candle to CRT at playing SD: those big tubes let us get away with murder. I'm hopeful some future advance like affordable OLED will help bring SD performance of flat screens up a couple notches from where they are now.
Edited by CitiBear - 12/30/12 at 11:53pm

SUBJECT: Viewing Old Pre-SD Shows on Current Display Devices...
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Somewhere in a RECENT post, Kelson pointed out that the SHARPNESS of PLASMA will most certainly ACCENTUATE the inadequacies of SD (or LESS!) much more than LCD. I'm surprised that you missed it. (I believe "Upscaling 1080i" was in the title.)

Another factor will be SIZE (screen AND pixels) - your old 'Archives' might look GREAT on a 19" LCD HDTV - not so great on a 55" LCD HDTV. But, most certainly, they'll look their *BEST* on *ANY* CRT!
. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Edited by ClearToLand - 12/30/12 at 9:57pm

I post this with some trepidation because the type of display can be a religious issue with many.

High quality SD coming from a digital source (i.e. commercial DVD or from a digital cable box) and piped into a plasma via HDMI can look very good. DVD's played on my Oppo player over HDMI look quite incredible on my plasma.

Low quality analog SD -- such as what comes out of the composite/S-Video ports of a cable STB -- looks like crap on a plasma. It is meant for legacy 4:3 SD CRT displays which is why they letterbox the output. The same goes for digitizing VHS for transfer to DVD. The tack-sharp plasma display shows it for what it is.

LCD will never be as naturally sharp as a plasma because of the heavy signal processing used to compensate for the motion blur and lower contrast ratio due to shutter bleed. LCD's use heavy DSP to try and match the performance of an emissive display (i.e. plasma). This leads to that eye-popping, super-color saturated, super-realism look that makes people stop and stare in the store and go "ooooh" -- often called the "soap-opera effect". Many people love it and say it looks like they are watching real-life; others get a headache watching it after a few hours and end up turning off much of the DSP in the hopes of getting a more natural picture. Because of all the DSP and the naturally softer picture of LCD (due to lower contrast), analog SD does not look as bad on an LCD as it does on a plasma -- I'm not saying it looks good, just not as bad. If I wanted a flat panel to watch a lot of analog SD, I would pick an LCD with a soft picture -- one where you could stick your nose on the screen and not see the individual pixels -- a Vizio would be near the top of the list.

I totally agree with Citibear (not that I disagree with Kelson).
I also have a Panasonic(my first HDTV, a 32" 720p with very good contrast ratio for the time). The reason I picked the Panasonic(LCD with CFL) was mainly because of it's ability to play iffy SD and look quite good. It also looks good with HD but since a lot of my material is from DVD or even VHS source, SD was my biggest priority. At the time the reason the reviewers said the Panasonic was good for SD was because of it's high contrast ratio. Before the Panasonic I had a 26" Sony Trinatron CRT which I loved but being OTA only I wanted the digital tuner and of course HD for the programs broadcast in HD.
My second HDTV was a 46" Sony 1080p LCD(also with CFL). It also does a great job with SD(although being 46" it does blow up the imperfections more than a 32"). The Sony blows the Panasonic out of the water for HD, particularly 1080p or 1080i.
Another thing I like about both of those sets is the variety of SD inputs. Both have S-video as well as several composite along with multiple component, the Sony has 4 HDMI while the Panny I think only has one(that I used to use with a 4x1 switcher). Modern HDTVs have totally abandoned S-video and if your lucky they'll give you one composite, many times shared with component(meaning if you use one you can't use the other ).
I also have a couple Vizios(both LCD CFL) that both display HD quite well(the newer 37" 1080p better than the older 720p) but neither look as good with SD. I have a LG and Samsung(both 1080p LCD w/CFL) that look very good with HD and better with SD than the Vizio but not in same class as the Panny or Sony with SD. Lastly I have a Insignia and tried a Dynex(both lower end 720p CFL LCDs) that look OK with HD but really quite poor with SD.

Again to reiterate I think contrast ratio(real ratio, not 1 gazillion to 1 dynamic that mfgs. like to boast) makes SD look the best. Low end brands may look OK with SD but really poor with SD.

I tried a Plasma between my Panny and Sony but for several reasons returned it, one was the extreme heat it gave off and another was the glossy screen that didn't fit well in my sun porch where it was to be located. I like the looks of the newer LED LCDs, they look great with HD but the few I've seen(only in store) didn't look as good with SD. They were almost too tack sharp and tended to accentuate all the imperfections of SD. Another think I didn't care for the LEDs was being newer they lacked most of the SD inputs that I really desire.
I'd like to upsize my 46" Sony and I'm seriously considering the same model Sony(used, several years old) only in the larger 52" size, that or a newer(but still used) 55" CFL model. Again I like the sharpness of the newer LED models but inputs and also ability to display SD has me thinking I'm going to stick with CFL.
Edited by jjeff - 12/31/12 at 9:02am

Confession: A couple years ago, I found a Toshiba 32" LCD on sale at a really good price on Amazon. I bought it simply as a "spare" because it has a full complement of Composite, S-Video, and Component inputs, and the handwriting was already on the wall that the future is the HDMI Way or the highway.

The Tosh and my ca. 2008 32" Sharp Aquos LCD do very well with SD. My GF has a 32" Vizio LCD that's a year or so newer than my Sharp, and the SD performance is pretty disappointing. I would have returned it, but she's not a videophile so she's satisfied.

My recommendations are 4:3 Sony Trinitron CRT in 20 to 27", Panasonic 42 and 37" EDTV Plasmas like the 42PW7UY and 37PW6UY etc which require less scaling and thus produce less scaling artifacts. Pioneer 43" Plasmas from the mid 00s, which tended to produce a soft image which helps with the low res and VCR playback, these also have 1024x768 pixels instead of full blown 1080p which also helps with the scaling artifacts.

What you are looking for in a newer set is excellent video processing. Which isnt to hard to come by these days. Video processing and scaling tends to be good in everything, because slapping a cheap Mediatek processer in there is all it takes. The sets with the Silicon Opitx HQV Realtas and Reons like the Olevia 747i are good with low res playback. The Vizio XVT505SV (or some like that) 50" Plasma as well.

I think they still make 1024x768 42" Plasmas, which may be your best bet new.

Since you're excluding a CRT (which probably is the best for viewing SD material), I take it this will be your main or only TV for viewing everything?

I'm looking to upsize my 50" plasma, also. With the 70", 80" and 90" LCD displays released by Sharp, I'm hoping the 2013 Panasonic models will finally include a 70" plasma (or larger).

(Whoops! Conflated subjects from two different threads into one response. Well, c'mon, I was at work last night until 10:15 PM.)

The CRT Option works best if you have an old "legacy" TV sitting around or a friend or relative gives up a pretty decent one when he upgrades to flatscreen. I still have the 20" Sony Wega CRT I got in 2002. It's a "flat screen," meaning the glass on the front is flat, not convex like a traditional picture tube (paid a good 100 buck for that). Still great for SD playback and watching METV played through a Zenith DTT-901 or Channel Master CM-7000. (I also use an old Panasonic EZ-17 DVDR just as a tuner.)
Edited by doswonk1 - 1/1/13 at 4:26pm

Pioneer made some 40" 4:3 aspect ratio plasmas in the early 00s, that may be a top contender to add to my list. The PDP V402, for example.

LG 55" OLED HDTV to be released in Korea, with U.S. plans revealed in next few weeks. Only $10,000.

The conventional wisdom is that less scaling produces better image quality. However, I think 1080p will do you just fine. I wouldnt sweat that too much.

In my experience DVD (at least those mastered without excessive edge enhancement which was popular in the early days of DVD when most people had 19"-27" CRT televisions but isnt so good on 42" flat screen plasmas and LCD) looks pretty darn good even when blown up to Front Projector levels 70" to 92", though that is pushing it.

Most sets being produced today have quality scalers and video processing cores...and that used to be quite an issue back 7 years ago and previous, but isnt so much these days. So if you take this out of the equation, I favor Plasma for ultra low res VHS playback in general. Also it will be superior for concert playback with al lthe black backrounds. A 1090p set will also be good for sports in your cave, and plasma outperforms LCD with motion resolution for that.

All that being said, I would never buy a Plasma because I live in the Deep South and the idea of having a huge heat radiator blasting away, while my AC unit fights it and my electric meter spinning like a top as the dollars rack up, is just too much to bear.

It's LED LCD for me. For that reason and for the reason that I have a wall of windows I dont wish to cover in my viewing area.

The Panasonic and Samsung plasmas are not directly comparable to their LCD counterparts by the same mfrs. The appearance is moderately to dramatically different. Whether you would prefer one to the other is a matter of personal taste: I'd recommend striking up a friendship with a salesperson in a store that has both on display. You'd really want the store to let you thoroughly test a representative DVD on both, after making rough adjustments to brightness and color that reflect your preferences. Plasma is a distinctly different look that people either love or hate, those who love it would not use anything else, but plasma popularity is in decline with competition from newer larger LCDs. It is also unfortunate that both Samsung and Panasonic have inexplicably burdened their current plasmas with flaws not found in earlier versions.

The issue with LCD is that all the better models with better quality panels have moved to LED backlight, and LED backlight often drags high-gloss screen covers along for the ride. LED is prone to uneven brightness, it reduces the adjustment range of picture settings, and some sets use gimmicks like turning off the LEDs nearest large dark areas in the video (to enhance the apparent black level). This can backfire hilariously, as anyone who's tried to watch "Blade Runner" or "2001: A Space Odyssey" on a large LED can attest. This isn't to say really nice LCDs with LED backlight don't exist, or that you can't learn to live with some of the compromises: every time I visit my parents and see their two year old 40" Samsung LED, I'm floored by how good it is. The viewing angles rival IPS and plasma, the picture doesn't wash out even at high noon facing a window, performance with HD signals is stunning, and SD playback is good enough to almost suit me. But I'm put off by the goofy auto-dimming dark-scene LED feature, which cannot be disabled, and sample-to-sample variation of larger Samsungs is so bad it makes the horrendous LG panel lottery pale in comparison. I have hopes that Panasonic and Sony are handling LED a bit better, but haven't had occasion to test one out (I'm still happy with my Panny and Sony LCD/CFL screens).

With all flat screens I've tried with my Pioneer and Magnavox DVD/HDD recorders, HDMI is noticeably superior to analog composite or S-Video connection. I set the recorder HDMI output to 720 x 480p, and the TV does the rest. Using higher-res HDMI settings like 1280 x 720 or 1920 x 1080 isn't as effective as letting the TV scale internally from 720 x 480. Of course, DVD/HDD recorders are SD sources: my HD cable decoder box is set to 1080.

LED comes in several flavors.

Edge Lit which often has uniformity issues, especially on larger screen sizes.
Direct Lit which is usually nice and uniform.
Edge Lit with Zone Dimming, which is problematic.
Direct Lit (Full Array) with Local Dimming, which is prone to blooming around bright objects on a dark backround, but overall I much prefer for the Pioneer Kuro like black levels.

One thing to note about Samsung vs Panasonic Plasmas is that the Samsungs have much better OTA Program Guides, if you are going to use the internal ATSC tuner and that feature will come in real handy. If you are using off board tuners in your DVD Recorders, not so much an issue.

The newer Panasonics (and probably Samsungs) have mitigated the dim full field white issue quite a bit, but at the cost of increased heat output.

My favorite is Full Array Direct Lit LED with Local Dimming. Im looking to pick up a Vizio XVT473SV or XVT3D474SV from 2 and 3 years ago, maybe the 42" versions. These are on my buy list for 2013. Maybe a Samsung from that era with Full Array and Local Dimming instead. I really like the Sony NX720 from a couple of years ago too.

SuperEye, I recommend DLP technology. I have a lot of SVHS and LD recordings. For the most part, they look rather good on my 56" Samsung DLP. Of course Samsung no longer makes DLPs, but Mitsubishi does. SD sources in general look best on DLP sets, in my experience. The newer ones are pretty shallow, like about 11" or so deep. That means that they are as shallow as the stand many would use for a thin TV. They are light weight, use comparatively little electricity, have no grid - the entire surface is lit. They don't experience burn-in, and they don't dim with age. It's the same tech as used for the best digital theater projection.

I'm totally agree, for SD there's still nothing better that the reliable Trinitrons.

Ouch! I'm really sorry to hear that. I guess us DLP lovers will have to go to front projection. At least at one time, there were 42" DLP sets, and there were other brands, like Optima. Problem is, people really love those thin sets, even if they DON'T hang them on the wall, like a painting.

My second TV was a front projection, a 6 1/2' Kloss Novabeam. As large as it was it still displayed VHS pretty well and of course at the time no HD of any kind. It's one drawback(other than the occasional convergence issues that I became quite good at adjusting) was it required a darkened room, other than that I loved it. Oh my first purchased new TV was a '82 26" Sony Trinitron which I used up until I got my first HDTV(a 32" Panasonic 720p LCD). The Sony was great with SD in fact it was too good in that covered the flaws of many of my tapes, something that later HDTVs did not

Wow, that bites, though I understand why they're doing it. The market share on that is just too small to sustain.

Although maybe it means I can snag a 70" or so for cheap now. (Though I don't think I can get it into my apartment. )

Same here - have a 26 and 32 inch LCD, both 720p with good contrast, fantastic blacks -- the old SD recordings look much better on my old Pannys than on any of the newer, higher res. tvs I've tested output DVDs on. I wonder if it has anything to do with the the 60 / vs 120 Hz display? I haven't tried the LED models, but it's not making me anxious to upgrade. I'm sure the new recordings will look fine, but I want to be able to access my old content.

I'll stick with these tvs for awhile longer... (Dinosaurs are a tenacious breed...)