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AE TD12x SEOS12 Build!!!! - Page 8

post #211 of 335
1/29/13 at 12:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countryWV View Post

Beast your speaker build turned out awesome. What would you think about 4 of them as surrounds with the T12's as the front LCR? What about the CD upgrade BA-700 or whatever its called. Is there a crossover available for that? My idea is to do your SEOS build possibly with the CD upgrade from the 360 to the 700 with the TD12x if that will work. If and when it works out take the $$$$ saved and upgrade the T12's to the Noesis.
What do you think and how long did it take to get those AE TD12x?
Thanks
Chris

The BA750 wouldn't be needed IMO, and if you did opt for it, you would want to go with the SEOS15 at LEAST! That would completely change the XO config and one has not yet been modeled for something like that. FWIW, the 360 is already a very fine compression driver and will work just fine for your intentions. If you really went balls to the wall and did something with the BA750, a larger SEOS, then you would want to more than likely also move up to a 15 inch woofer, in which case, you would, if done right, have a speaker that would outperform the T12's and you could use THEM as your rear surrounds biggrin.gif I know that would be blasphemous to say in the JTR thread, but I digress, after hearing this design, it has completely opened my eyes to the benefit of having speakers that can run full range. The LS6's could do it, but not with the constant directivity of the Horn design. Tread lightly Chris, doing this design will do two things, open your eyes to what can be accomplished with a proper DIY design, and it will make you want to see nothing other than the Noesis. The more I listen to these, the more quickly I forget the T12's. Don't get me wrong, I still loved them when I had them, but man, these things are just on point.
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post #212 of 335
1/29/13 at 12:53pm
Glad you like the setup and it is working out for you... as I told you when you picked them up, of the SEOS builds I've done to date, my favorite so far *overall* has been with that AE woofer. There are a couple aspects of the JBL 2206H woofer that I like, but it won't go as deep and the top end needs more than LR2 above 1200Hz as i can hear the breakup compared to the AEs, which go much further up without issue. For a set of speakers that you can run full range for music, the AE gets it done better than other options I've heard.

I'm curious to hear what the big horns I've got on order (along with big JBL CDs with beryllium truextant diaphragms) will sound like with the TD15M and TD15H woofers...... provided the AE group buy woofers and phase plugs get done and I can get the horns out of Poland smile.gif hehehehe but the results with the TD12x were what kept me heading down the path of exploring more designs with the AE woofers...

have fun breaking them in and playing smile.gif
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post #213 of 335
1/29/13 at 12:56pm
I couldn't remember if the lowest setting was 30 or 40...and I have a 4311. I also can't remember how it handles stereo content and bass management. I think it will mix the subs in if you ask. Any way you cut it, your subwoofers will be lower distortion and act as a multisub at these lower frequencies which should give you the best frequency response.
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post #214 of 335
1/29/13 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post

They look awesome, I have been waiting for some pics with the drivers mounted.

Do you think the phase plugs will cause any reflection issues behind your screen?

That is why I painted mine black. Love the look of the solid aluminum phase plugs, but had to go black if going behind my screen.
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post #215 of 335
1/29/13 at 1:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheaterdoc View Post

Glad you like the setup and it is working out for you... as I told you when you picked them up, of the SEOS builds I've done to date, my favorite so far *overall* has been with that AE woofer. There are a couple aspects of the JBL 2206H woofer that I like, but it won't go as deep and the top end needs more than LR2 above 1200Hz as i can hear the breakup compared to the AEs, which go much further up without issue. For a set of speakers that you can run full range for music, the AE gets it done better than other options I've heard.

I'm curious to hear what the big horns I've got on order (along with big JBL CDs with beryllium truextant diaphragms) will sound like with the TD15M and TD15H woofers...... provided the AE group buy woofers and phase plugs get done and I can get the horns out of Poland smile.gif hehehehe but the results with the TD12x were what kept me heading down the path of exploring more designs with the AE woofers...

have fun breaking them in and playing smile.gif

Thanks!! I haven't experienced the 2206, but the quad 2225's ive got may get a build around them at some point in the near future, just for fun smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I couldn't remember if the lowest setting was 30 or 40...and I have a 4311. I also can't remember how it handles stereo content and bass management. I think it will mix the subs in if you ask. Any way you cut it, your subwoofers will be lower distortion and act as a multisub at these lower frequencies which should give you the best frequency response.

By multisub you mean have a good amount of overlap between the mains and the subs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

That is why I painted mine black. Love the look of the solid aluminum phase plugs, but had to go black if going behind my screen.

I haven't noticed any reflection off them yet, but they are also about 18 inches from the screen, not right up against it. I will remove and spray black if I have to smile.gif I love the look of them as well...
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post #216 of 335
1/29/13 at 1:45pm
I almost hate to ask, but have you listened to any 'girl and guitar' music, any small jazz combos, anything purely acoustic yet? If so, any thoughts?
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post #217 of 335
1/29/13 at 1:52pm
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post

I almost hate to ask, but have you listened to any 'girl and guitar' music, any small jazz combos, anything purely acoustic yet? If so, any thoughts?

Don't have any small jazz combo's in my library, but I can find something. The Dave Matthews BD is just him and Tim Reynolds, and Ive listened to the Alice in Chains unplugged and eagles Hell Freezes Over tracks. These are all my go-to's when I am really testing new designs. so far they have excelled at ALL. amazing clarity and dynamics. Tonight comes the taxing material..super-fast double bass kicks and shredding metal solos, bass drops in dubstep, and heavy bass tracks on not so popular anymore rappers biggrin.gif hehe. Subs are required for this stuff in some cases!!!
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post #218 of 335
1/29/13 at 2:05pm
Check it. biggrin.gifhttps://www.facebook.com/aespeakers
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post #219 of 335
1/29/13 at 2:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Don't have any small jazz combo's in my library, but I can find something. The Dave Matthews BD is just him and Tim Reynolds, and Ive listened to the Alice in Chains unplugged and eagles Hell Freezes Over tracks. These are all my go-to's when I am really testing new designs. so far they have excelled at ALL. amazing clarity and dynamics. Tonight comes the taxing material..super-fast double bass kicks and shredding metal solos, bass drops in dubstep, and heavy bass tracks on not so popular anymore rappers biggrin.gif hehe. Subs are required for this stuff in some cases!!!

Where's the Sarah McLachlan bro?
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post #220 of 335
1/29/13 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I wouldn't go so far as to say it will create "muddy' mids, but IMO it is a good tradeoff. Dedicated subs will do a far better job below 40-50hz than the TD12X's. Running the TD12Xs in a LFE+Mains is likely a good idea though.

Ultimately this is all very easy to test subjectively.

Problem is, you can't send LFE to the mains as Scott is wanting, if you select a crossover point. You can only do that if setting speakers to small. What intrigued me as a possibility is to run mains with a 40 or 50hz crossover. Split the mains signal and run it to the mains and to an active crossover. Low pass the crossover at 200hz and feed it to a pair of stereo subs near your mains. So you would have mains playing 40/50hz and up and a pair of matched subs playing 40/50hz up to 200hz. I used to do this with a lesser system and it did sound very good. Only thing I don't like is giving up anything below 40/50hz on a pair of 18's. For me to test this in my room, I need to run another speaker wire from my equipment room located below the HT to the HT room. May have to wait a while before I experiment with this.
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post #221 of 335
1/29/13 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Problem is, you can't send LFE to the mains as Scott is wanting, if you select a crossover point. You can only do that if setting speakers to small. What intrigued me as a possibility is to run mains with a 40 or 50hz crossover. Split the mains signal and run it to the mains and to an active crossover. Low pass the crossover at 200hz and feed it to a pair of stereo subs near your mains. So you would have mains playing 40/50hz and up and a pair of matched subs playing 40/50hz up to 200hz. I used to do this with a lesser system and it did sound very good. Only thing I don't like is giving up anything below 40/50hz on a pair of 18's. For me to test this in my room, I need to run another speaker wire from my equipment room located below the HT to the HT room. May have to wait a while before I experiment with this.

Yup. You could do this with a DCX and/or MiniDSP. Beast owns a DCX but only one, afaik. With a single DCX you can combine two inputs for one new output. So he could cross the mains at whatever frequency and then send the LFE to the mains but with a single DCX he could only do one channel. Soo...that's not gonna cut it.

That's why I bought three! tongue.gif
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post #222 of 335
1/29/13 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by robotbunny View Post

Check it. biggrin.gifhttps://www.facebook.com/aespeakers

THAT IS GREAT!!! Haha, I am famous smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post

Where's the Sarah McLachlan bro?

In the trash bin...I'm not old enough yet to be that lame...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Problem is, you can't send LFE to the mains as Scott is wanting, if you select a crossover point. You can only do that if setting speakers to small. What intrigued me as a possibility is to run mains with a 40 or 50hz crossover. Split the mains signal and run it to the mains and to an active crossover. Low pass the crossover at 200hz and feed it to a pair of stereo subs near your mains. So you would have mains playing 40/50hz and up and a pair of matched subs playing 40/50hz up to 200hz. I used to do this with a lesser system and it did sound very good. Only thing I don't like is giving up anything below 40/50hz on a pair of 18's. For me to test this in my room, I need to run another speaker wire from my equipment room located below the HT to the HT room. May have to wait a while before I experiment with this.

not a bad idea for the JBL's eh? still have all the SI's running sub 40hz content, seems like I with all that I could have just kept the dang RE's in, haha. No this is a lot more exciting.
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post #223 of 335
1/29/13 at 3:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Don't have any small jazz combo's in my library, but I can find something. The Dave Matthews BD is just him and Tim Reynolds, and Ive listened to the Alice in Chains unplugged and eagles Hell Freezes Over tracks. These are all my go-to's when I am really testing new designs. so far they have excelled at ALL. amazing clarity and dynamics. Tonight comes the taxing material..super-fast double bass kicks and shredding metal solos, bass drops in dubstep, and heavy bass tracks on not so popular anymore rappers biggrin.gif hehe. Subs are required for this stuff in some cases!!!
Awesome, thanks.

My bad on the Matthews/Reynolds, I actually own that one but didn't make the connection when you mentioned DMB Live.

Looking forward to your next report from the Impact Zone! biggrin.gif
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post #224 of 335
1/29/13 at 3:36pm
You have a ton of options, B. Exercise what you've got while you got it.
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post #225 of 335
1/29/13 at 3:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Yup. You could do this with a DCX and/or MiniDSP. Beast owns a DCX but only one, afaik. With a single DCX you can combine two inputs for one new output. So he could cross the mains at whatever frequency and then send the LFE to the mains but with a single DCX he could only do one channel. Soo...that's not gonna cut it.

That's why I bought three! tongue.gif

why not just do as mike said above, for LCR, and split the signal and double it up in the DCX to the subs/mains? or do you mean you would have to have Left in, sub in for each channel? That would then require a dual sub out, to get stereo (which I have but many don't).
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post #226 of 335
1/29/13 at 3:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

why not just do as mike said above, for LCR, and split the signal and double it up in the DCX to the subs/mains? or do you mean you would have to have Left in, sub in for each channel? That would then require a dual sub out, to get stereo (which I have but many don't).

Idk but between your and his post, my mind is melting. tongue.gif

I think my idea is actually more simple. eek.gif Either use the LFE+Main or don't. Cuz all the other external bass management is gonna be tricky unless you have the right device. I will be doing it using a MiniDSP 10x10hd for $600. : /
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post #227 of 335
1/29/13 at 6:35pm
I hope someone can explain this to me a little more... For the past few months I've been inching to do a TD15M build as I heard from John at AE and Mark Seaton say that's the best sounding driver crossed to ~80htz. Well what's the benefit of running a full range driver like the 12X or even 15X over so the 15M? I'm talking about the guys like you and Rilla that have MORE than Capable subs to cover the <80htz content. Would implementing a driver that can go down to 40-50 while having lets say 8 SI 18's subs be a benefit? Or would something more sensitive with a higher crossover be better? Sry in advance just very confused smile.gif
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post #228 of 335
1/29/13 at 6:53pm
Oh I can't wait for a DIY vs Noesis comparison. I've got my hands full upgrading to 8 18" drivers with CHT subs but are my 2008 JTR Triple 12LF for LCR next to go due to the upgrade bug??
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post #229 of 335
1/29/13 at 8:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

I hope someone can explain this to me a little more... For the past few months I've been inching to do a TD15M build as I heard from John at AE and Mark Seaton say that's the best sounding driver crossed to ~80htz. Well what's the benefit of running a full range driver like the 12X or even 15X over so the 15M? I'm talking about the guys like you and Rilla that have MORE than Capable subs to cover the <80htz content. Would implementing a driver that can go down to 40-50 while having lets say 8 SI 18's subs be a benefit? Or would something more sensitive with a higher crossover be better? Sry in advance just very confused smile.gif

With this build I have confirmed my theory (with a little push from some other forum members) that a set of mains that can play well past their intended crossover point flat is an excellent and beneficial endeavor. Not only does it make crossing them over easier, but you can play a full range speaker, well, full range! With my propensity to listen to a lot of music, in stereo, this is more important for me than say, the guy using his theater for pure movie viewing, but the point still remains if you have a speaker that starts falling off at or around the XO point you are using (say 80hz) it just blends better if the said speaker has the capability to extend further IMHO. YMMV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaNile View Post

Oh I can't wait for a DIY vs Noesis comparison. I've got my hands full upgrading to 8 18" drivers with CHT subs but are my 2008 JTR Triple 12LF for LCR next to go due to the upgrade bug??

With your adversity to building anything out, I say you are on an excellent path smile.gif for the $$ built out, the JTR's are still my fave. Should you choose to delve into the DIY world, with some modest skill and a light understanding of power tools and help, you can pretty much open up the book to anything you want to achieve!!!! I love this build, and if I were building it out for business, it would more than likely be similar in price to the T12's...Time value of money....Jeff at JTR makes a killer speaker, I was just going for a little more extension with this build, and I got it smile.gif The T12's can go harder, and louder, but I sacrificed a little of that to have said extension, and as well, listening at anything above ref makes me feel like my ears are about to bleed. These do reference in spades with ample power, and that is all I wanted smile.gif I can get past ref for a bit and the setup sounds just fine, but by then I already have earplugs in so who knows what the response graph would look like inside my brain at that point tongue.gif
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post #230 of 335
1/29/13 at 9:01pm
TD18h bass bins are in your future, young Padawan.
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post #231 of 335
1/29/13 at 9:22pm
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

TD18h bass bins are in your future, young Padawan.

Not if the uber hybrid noetalysts happen cool.gif
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post #232 of 335
1/29/13 at 9:23pm
Thread Starter 
You are already picturing what I am thinking and it makes me smile that you are already grinning ear to ear as well...
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post #233 of 335
1/29/13 at 9:49pm
You've had me laughing my ass off for the past half hour.

Noetalysts

Bwahahahaha! That has to be used for someone's mega speaker. Someday.....someday.
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post #234 of 335
1/30/13 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Problem is, you can't send LFE to the mains as Scott is wanting, if you select a crossover point. You can only do that if setting speakers to small. What intrigued me as a possibility is to run mains with a 40 or 50hz crossover. Split the mains signal and run it to the mains and to an active crossover. Low pass the crossover at 200hz and feed it to a pair of stereo subs near your mains. So you would have mains playing 40/50hz and up and a pair of matched subs playing 40/50hz up to 200hz. I used to do this with a lesser system and it did sound very good. Only thing I don't like is giving up anything below 40/50hz on a pair of 18's. For me to test this in my room, I need to run another speaker wire from my equipment room located below the HT to the HT room. May have to wait a while before I experiment with this.

I always forget about that catch in the LFE+Mains implementation. It is unfortunate it is implemented that way. Ideally you would highpass right around port tuning AND get the benefit of overlap between mains and subs sharing mixed 8 channels. I do this manually but only because I have active LCR's.

I am skeptical that the benefit Beast and Simonian are hearing is due to the bass being in stereo as much as it is the effect of what is basically a method of multisub offering better frequency response in the bass range.
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post #235 of 335
1/30/13 at 8:51am
^also might see benefit from the bass actually coming from the main location. I know bass is not technically localizable but i also know i can tell the difference when a kick drum eminates from behind vs front of me or right vs left. Harmonics extend all around the fundamental sound freq and some of those are localizable to me in especially in the kick drum range.

Thats one reason i keep mu subs behind me delayed and level matched below the main subs up front.

I think its time for a UTUBE VIDDEO!!!
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post #236 of 335
1/30/13 at 8:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post
I am skeptical that the benefit Beast and Simonian are hearing is due to the bass being in stereo as much as it is the effect of what is basically a method of multisub offering better frequency response in the bass range.

Yeah, and that's why I want to see FR / waterfall graphs of what's going on. It might even be different strokes for different folks, too.

  • Some might be simply getting more bass as if the tone control was used.
  • Some are getting double output at 80-110Hz and are loving the chest thump, but it might be way more than intended and might be ringing forever.
  • Some might be achieving the "multi-sub smoothing" you speak of. 
  • Some will have a combination of the above.

 

I'd also want to know what the distortion is. Ricci measure it for subs and sub drivers... Asking a driver whose F3 is 40Hz to play 25Hz content might be yielding 80% distortion for some?

If it's even-order, then it might sound better, fuller, and more of it...but it's because there's a bunch of bass at 50Hz and 100Hz too.

 

I want to learn what's in play here, and if and how I can best apply it to my system.

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post #237 of 335
1/30/13 at 9:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

TD18h bass bins are in your future, young Padawan.

Would love to see some implement these.... That way I can copy the design smile.gif
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post #238 of 335
1/30/13 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coctostan View Post

I always forget about that catch in the LFE+Mains implementation. It is unfortunate it is implemented that way. Ideally you would highpass right around port tuning AND get the benefit of overlap between mains and subs sharing mixed 8 channels. I do this manually but only because I have active LCR's.

I am skeptical that the benefit Beast and Simonian are hearing is due to the bass being in stereo as much as it is the effect of what is basically a method of multisub offering better frequency response in the bass range.

Well that's just it. I never said I prefered the method because of "stereo bass" but because I felt it better to "spread the bass" and it is essentially a multisub system up front. I explained this explicitly in the high output, multi-driver DIY mains thread. Who said anything about 'stereo bass' being the key? It wasn't me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ehoeft View Post

Would love to see some implement these.... That way I can copy the design smile.gif

Damn right! smile.gif
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post #239 of 335
1/30/13 at 9:31am
What would I lose going with a sealed design in a box for these? Debating sealed or front slot port because the speakers would be a few feet from an untreated wall.
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post #240 of 335
1/30/13 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhazard View Post

What would I lose going with a sealed design in a box for these? Debating sealed or front slot port because the speakers would be a few feet from an untreated wall.

For what? Building something like Beast's SEOS?

The answer would be losing output near where he has his tuned. Beside that if you went sealed with a controlled excursion profile, you'll be able to run full range (if that's what you want) with absolutely zero fear of mechanically damaging your woofer.

You could build it vented and seal it up after the fact but usually this requires a slightly larger box than if you just wanted sealed.
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