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Odd YPAO results with RW12 sub

post #1 of 12
12/31/12 at 12:15pm
Thread Starter 
I would like to get some input on the results I got when running YPAO with my Kipsch RW12 sub. The set up that I have is a Yamaha RX-A710 receiver, Pioneer FS52 Front and CS52 center with SB52s for the surround. I have a Klipsch Rw12d with this as well. When I run setup the results show the distances very close to the actual distances of the speakers (I realize this has to do with timing and not actual distance). The amount of adjustment to the speakers is minimal with the left front and rear at 0 in the rights adjusted be less than dB each. I followed the advice to get the sub-woofer to be within + / - 3 dB and to get that I had to turn the speaker on the sub down to -23 dB, not a big deal we are just setting the amp gain im not really concerned with the number. So I run YPAO and the results are the fronts are set to small, the rears are set to large and the Sub is set with a +2.5 dB level and a crossover point of 120Hz. If I adjusted the sub volume any higher or lower the level was outside if the + / - 3 dB range.

When listening to this configuration the bass is non existent for movies and even in bass heavy music electronic music. I made some changes and set the rear speakers to small and the fronts to large because I like the extra fullness that it adds to the sound. To get a reasonable amount of bass I ended up setting the volume on the sub at -10 as opposed to the -23 that gave me the initial reading and Ii and dropped the crossover to 60Hz. I would be interested to hear any input on the oddball settings that YPAO returned on speaker sizes and sub-woofer level?

I like the sound with the adjustments that I have made to it. I have had this set up for a month or so and have made several trials with YPAO and the various sound settings in my receiver and know that my current set up is the sound that I prefer. Is it normal for the auto set to set sub-woofer levels so low?
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post #2 of 12
12/31/12 at 1:46pm
I have had that happen to me before. I just set the crossover on the avr to 80hz and all the speakers to small. that is what the THX recommends. Also if you hav a spl meter you can maually adjust the levels. Let the avr get the distances and you adjust the levels to 75db.
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post #3 of 12
12/31/12 at 2:42pm
If you set your floorstanding speakers to "small" you might as well throw them on a bonfire, and setting the rear speakers to large is kind of ridiculous. Common sense should tell you that!

The FS52 speakers are designed to put out BASS...use their capability properly!

Set your subwoofer's internal rolloff filter so that it will only operate below 50 Hz, and set your front speakers to operate over their full frequency response range.

It sounds to me as if your "YPAQ" result is a useless muddle, so just defeat it completely and use good sense. Shut it off and forget it.
Edited by commsysman - 12/31/12 at 2:50pm
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post #4 of 12
12/31/12 at 3:16pm
This is were some people just don't get it. Setting speakers to "small" only means that you can play around with the crossover freq, usually 40,50,60,70,80,90,100,120,150,200hrz. Setting them to "large" means no high pass filter so the speaker runs unrestricted and will receiver freq under 20hrz. If you have a tower that can play down to 47hz for example you have to set it to small so you can cut it off at 50hrz or 60hrz.

Room correction isn't perfect all the time. Sometimes re running it can improve the results, you can always tweak your crossover setting after running the RC.

When I've run Audyssey XT32 it got my setup almost perfect. Only issue is it had my left surround 2 ft further back than it really was and had them set to 50hrz (which isn't a problem because they are capable large monitors).

chrisinmo re run it and double check it.
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post #5 of 12
12/31/12 at 4:23pm
Thread Starter 
I ran it again today. Same basic results. I ran it with the volume setting on the sub at -10 where it sounds good with the rest of the system instead of the -23 that I used yesterday. The YPAO this time set the sub level at -10 dB which is as low as it can go.

Regarding the small vs large for the fronts I have listened to the speakers set both ways and the fronts set to large give a much fuller sound with them set to small it does not sound as good. I know the common advice is set the fronts to small and send all bass to the sub but I much prefer the sound with the fronts set to large and the sub crossed over at 60 HZ. There is an option to send bass below the crossover set point to the fronts and sub or just the sub with my receiver.
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post #6 of 12
12/31/12 at 4:40pm
Quote:
This is were some people just don't get it. Setting speakers to "small" only means that you can play around with the crossover freq, usually 40,50,60,70,80,90,100,120,150,200hrz. Setting them to "large" means no high pass filter so the speaker runs unrestricted and will receiver freq under 20hrz. If you have a tower that can play down to 47hz for example you have to set it to small so you can cut it off at 50hrz or 60hrz.

Ok so what is wrong with what I said about setting your speakers to small since you are going to want to have a filter on them?
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post #7 of 12
12/31/12 at 5:50pm
[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post

Ok so what is wrong with what I said about setting your speakers to small since you are going to want to have a filter on them?

No its was for Commsysman. Not your Sorry if you though it was directed at you. He doesn't understand room correction there fore its all garbage to him. He takes it literal when we say set them to small or large, he sees floorstanding speakers and can't understand why someone sets them to small in the receiver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you set your floorstanding speakers to "small" you might as well throw them on a bonfire, and setting the rear speakers to large is kind of ridiculous. Common sense should tell you that!
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post #8 of 12
12/31/12 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisinmo View Post

I ran it again today. Same basic results. I ran it with the volume setting on the sub at -10 where it sounds good with the rest of the system instead of the -23 that I used yesterday. The YPAO this time set the sub level at -10 dB which is as low as it can go.
Regarding the small vs large for the fronts I have listened to the speakers set both ways and the fronts set to large give a much fuller sound with them set to small it does not sound as good. I know the common advice is set the fronts to small and send all bass to the sub but I much prefer the sound with the fronts set to large and the sub crossed over at 60 HZ. There is an option to send bass below the crossover set point to the fronts and sub or just the sub with my receiver.

Do you have the subwoofers crossover disabled on the back of the amp? If it can't be disabled/off, make sure its set to 80hrz. The subwoofer amp gain might be set too high which is why YPAO might be setting the subwoofer volume so low. An SPL meter is help to calibrate your gain on the subwoofer. Usually play a tone and ajust the gain until the SPL meter reads 75-80. Then use the sub volume in the receiver menu to adjust how loud you want your subwoofer. Gain is not a volume control.

The receiver setting your speakers to large or small doesn't matter as long as you can go back in and change it without messing with what YPAO has aready done. So just make sure you have the crossover set where you need them and small/large. After that make sure distance is set correctly, usually allow a few feet just for processing delay for the EQ. Anti Mode 8033 subwoofer EQ as an example recommends adding a extra 3ft for delay.
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post #9 of 12
12/31/12 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

No its was for Commsysman. Not your Sorry if you though it was directed at you. He doesn't understand room correction there fore its all garbage to him. He takes it literal when we say set them to small or large, he sees floorstanding speakers and can't understand why someone sets them to small in the receiver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you set your floorstanding speakers to "small" you might as well throw them on a bonfire, and setting the rear speakers to large is kind of ridiculous. Common sense should tell you that!

Oh ok I gotcha.
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post #10 of 12
1/1/13 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you set your floorstanding speakers to "small" you might as well throw them on a bonfire, and setting the rear speakers to large is kind of ridiculous. Common sense should tell you that!

The FS52 speakers are designed to put out BASS...use their capability properly!

Given their pair of miniature 5.25 woofers, the FS52 speakers are begging to be set to small and used with a subwoofer handling the bass.

Here is an estimate of the max undistorted SPL as a function of frequency based on the size of the woofers and a very optimistic estimate of their linear stroke:

Freq,Hz Max SPL, DB

10 68
20 80
30 87
40 92
50 96
60 100
70 102
80 105
90 107
100 108
130 113

As you can see these speakers can't even achieve a fairly minimal 100 dB SPL below 100 Hz without distorting the bass,
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post #11 of 12
1/1/13 at 7:26am
I would expect strange noises coming from the woofers if set to large with low xover during dynamic peaks in a movie soundtrack. OP you'll notice right away if you push your speakers passed there limit, very scary sound and will make you hit the mute button real quick.

Commsysman seems to recommend crossing over towers and bookshelfs as low as you can. This can cause distortion to rise, risk of bottom/over excursion of the woofers, and can limit the dynamic peaks. I like to have my speakers have some extra headroom as far as low crossover goes. The electronic xovers in receiver isn't a brick wall but a slope so relieving the speakers from too much bass is just a good idea.
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post #12 of 12
1/3/13 at 5:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

If you set your floorstanding speakers to "small" you might as well throw them on a bonfire, and setting the rear speakers to large is kind of ridiculous. Common sense should tell you that!
The FS52 speakers are designed to put out BASS...use their capability properly!
Set your subwoofer's internal rolloff filter so that it will only operate below 50 Hz, and set your front speakers to operate over their full frequency response range.
It sounds to me as if your "YPAQ" result is a useless muddle, so just defeat it completely and use good sense. Shut it off and forget it.

Commsysman seems to be on a crusade lately telling people to not use cross-overs, and buy cambridge products. Take what he/she says with a massive grain of salt.
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