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The power of a tower on a shelf?

post #1 of 18
1/1/13 at 1:54pm
Thread Starter 
I was just thinking ...
I always wanted towers but cant fit them.
To get around my space limitations -

What if ... I were to hook up my two Klipsch RB-61ii next to each other on one side of my front stage and wire them in parallel then add another pair to the other side the same way.
I would have 2 as a 4 ohm load on the left and 2 as a 4 ohm load on the right.
They would still timbre match my RC-62ii center (which I ordered prematurely and should arrive this week).

Then, as a separate question,

What if I had one speaker on each side oriented upside down so as to even out the dispersion. (???)
For example, one left could have the horn high, the other left could have the horn low.

What do you all think?
Would this work?
Would this give me the sound similar to a tower but in a bookshelf form factor?

(these are all front ported speakers and I crossover at 80hz to a big subwoofer anyway.)
I have a newer Pioneer Elite SC-67 and it lists 4 ohm load specs so I think i'm ok there.

Am I crazy or might this just work?
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post #2 of 18
1/1/13 at 2:00pm
The only difference between a tower and a book shelf is LF. Just add a sub or two and you are set.
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post #3 of 18
1/1/13 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

The only difference between a tower and a book shelf is LF. Just add a sub or two and you are set.

Also more output, lower distortion (more drivers doing the work instead of one), and can have better resolution (multiple drivers covering a much smaller freq range) 3 way towers vs 2 way bookshelf. IMO just too many variables to say towers only offer LF over bookshelfs. A towers like for example Aperion Grand will have more output, higher power handling, lower distortion than the Aperion Grand bookshelf.

IMO using the mindset of towers only off LF than we should also see no difference in bookshelfs and tiny cubes. After all the bookshelf is only going to offer more bass nothing more right? So a Bose cube does everything a bookshelf does just not as much bass right?

Just too many variables to say they only offer bass.
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post #4 of 18
1/1/13 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgaiduk View Post

I was just thinking ...
I always wanted towers but cant fit them.
To get around my space limitations -
What if ... I were to hook up my two Klipsch RB-61ii next to each other on one side of my front stage and wire them in parallel then add another pair to the other side the same way.
I would have 2 as a 4 ohm load on the left and 2 as a 4 ohm load on the right.
They would still timbre match my RC-62ii center (which I ordered prematurely and should arrive this week).
Then, as a separate question,
What if I had one speaker on each side oriented upside down so as to even out the dispersion. (???)
For example, one left could have the horn high, the other left could have the horn low.
What do you all think?
Would this work?
Would this give me the sound similar to a tower but in a bookshelf form factor?
(these are all front ported speakers and I crossover at 80hz to a big subwoofer anyway.)
I have a newer Pioneer Elite SC-67 and it lists 4 ohm load specs so I think i'm ok there.
Am I crazy or might this just work?

Yes. That will wreck all kinds of havoc, not a good idea.
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post #5 of 18
1/1/13 at 3:19pm
Thread Starter 
Hmmm.
So far one for, one against, one maybe.
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post #6 of 18
1/1/13 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgaiduk View Post

Hmmm.
So far one for, one against, one maybe.

Huh? Those guys arent even talking about your idea lol
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post #7 of 18
1/1/13 at 3:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgaiduk View Post

Hmmm.
So far one for, one against, one maybe.

Your idea of wiring dual bookshelfs together is a bad idea. Comb filtering from the tweeters will cause the off axis to sound horrible. You really only adding output by wiring them together, if you need more output for what ever reason go with a larger bookshelf like the RB81.
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post #8 of 18
1/1/13 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgaiduk View Post

I was just thinking ...
I always wanted towers but cant fit them.
To get around my space limitations -
What if ... I were to hook up my two Klipsch RB-61ii next to each other on one side of my front stage and wire them in parallel then add another pair to the other side the same way.
I would have 2 as a 4 ohm load on the left and 2 as a 4 ohm load on the right.
They would still timbre match my RC-62ii center (which I ordered prematurely and should arrive this week).
Then, as a separate question,
What if I had one speaker on each side oriented upside down so as to even out the dispersion. (???)
For example, one left could have the horn high, the other left could have the horn low.
What do you all think?
Would this work?
Would this give me the sound similar to a tower but in a bookshelf form factor?
(these are all front ported speakers and I crossover at 80hz to a big subwoofer anyway.)
I have a newer Pioneer Elite SC-67 and it lists 4 ohm load specs so I think i'm ok there.
Am I crazy or might this just work?

Are you looking for "a wall of sound", or a properly set up and tweaked system that images, has front to back depth, produces dynamic impact, does dialog well and pans from left to right with a convincing effect?
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post #9 of 18
1/1/13 at 4:16pm
Thread Starter 
I think it goes without saying that I'm looking for the best quality sound I can get within the size of the spaces I have.
Why do people put towers in bedrooms and small living rooms?
I'm trying to fill a 3300 cubic ft space with one wall open to the rest of the house which essentially triples that size.
I can only fit about a 16" high left and right and maybe a 9" center.
I guess I don't have a good feel for how much speaker it takes to fill my space. I know the RB-81s would help but they won't fit vertically.
That's why I'm trying to expand horizontally.
I would have some KL-650-THXs in there but I want to timbre match.
I'll ditch Klipsch altogether if that's what it would take.
I'm thinking Ascend Horizon which they bill as a tower equivalent in a built in form factor.
I just don't think they have a center that would fit for me in that line.
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post #10 of 18
1/1/13 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

Also more output,
Based on what assumption?
Quote:
lower distortion (more drivers doing the work instead of one),
1) You falsely assume that a tower will necessarily have more drivers.
2) This is redundant with "more output", your first assertion.
Quote:
and can have better resolution (multiple drivers covering a much smaller freq range) 3 way towers vs 2 way bookshelf.
Again assumes 3-way vs 2-way: which was not the question.

BTW: I have 2-way towers. I also have 3-way bookshelves.
Quote:
IMO just too many variables to say towers only offer LF over bookshelfs. A towers like for example Aperion Grand will have more output, higher power handling, lower distortion than the Aperion Grand bookshelf.

Apples to oranges. You can't compare two arbitrary units (a pelican is heavier than a mouse: so obviously birds outweigh mammals).

So let's take Paradigm Studio 40v3 bookshelf (I've got a pair), and compare it to a Paradigm Studio 60v3 Tower (used to have a pair).
Does a single one of the things you said above apply? No?
Quote:
IMO using the mindset of towers only off LF than we should also see no difference in bookshelfs and tiny cubes. After all the bookshelf is only going to offer more bass nothing more right? So a Bose cube does everything a bookshelf does just not as much bass right?
I didn't say anything of the kind now did I?

In my example: the LF is coverd by a sub (if you don't have a sub, get a tower). In the example of a micros-cube: where are the VHF and mid-range being covered? They aren't? Apples and oranges.
In my example: the Freq not being produced by the speaker any more was already not being produced because of the AVR crossover setting. Is that true in your Bose example? No.
In my example: the frequencies in question were non-localizeable in most rooms. Is that the case with the missing frequencies in your Bose example? No, it's not.
In my example: the speakers in question were comparable *except* for the stated "tower vs bookshelf" difference. All the same drivers if we look specifically at the 40 vs 60, and mostly in most other cases. Is that the case for comparing a non-Bose 2-way or 3-way to a Bose cube? No. none of the same drivers.

You are hacking a straw man.
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post #11 of 18
1/1/13 at 4:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgaiduk View Post

I think it goes without saying that I'm looking for the best quality sound I can get within the size of the spaces I have.
Why do people put towers in bedrooms and small living rooms?
1) Because it was the best speaker available to them at the time.
2) Because they needed a high frequency response
3) Because they didn't want to have to find, buy, and use stands which may actually increase their cost.
4) Because they wanted to use more drivers than fit in a bookshelf (I have a pair of 4-way, 5-driver speakers)
5) Some other reason.
Quote:
I'm trying to fill a 3300 cubic ft space with one wall open to the rest of the house which essentially triples that size.

Listening distance is more important than overall size.

And for volume you should be looking at SPL, not configuration.

sensitivity is volume at 1w @ 1m.

Every time you double the listening distance, you loose 3-6db (2m = -3 db, 4m = -6db, 8m = -9db)
Every time you double the power, you add 3db (2w = +3db, 4w = +6db, 8w = +9db).

If you literally doubled the speakers (put two identical ones side-by-side) you gain +6db (and double power consumption)

I've never heard them and think they may be bigger than you want: but interesting would be http://soundfieldaudio.net/Home.html
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post #12 of 18
1/1/13 at 4:49pm
I believe you don't understand the purpose of towers. The larger size gives them better response in the lows than bookshelves.
Quote:
I crossover at 80hz to a big subwoofer anyway.
Then you have nothing to gain by using towers.
Quote:
Why do people put towers in bedrooms and small living rooms?
So that they won't need subs, assuming they know what they're doing. But you know what happens when you assume...
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post #13 of 18
1/1/13 at 5:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

Based on what assumption?
1) You falsely assume that a tower will necessarily have more drivers.
2) This is redundant with "more output", your first assertion.
Again assumes 3-way vs 2-way: which was not the question.
BTW: I have 2-way towers. I also have 3-way bookshelves.
Apples to oranges. You can't compare two arbitrary units (a pelican is heavier than a mouse: so obviously birds outweigh mammals).
So let's take Paradigm Studio 40v3 bookshelf (I've got a pair), and compare it to a Paradigm Studio 60v3 Tower (used to have a pair).
Does a single one of the things you said above apply? No?
I didn't say anything of the kind now did I?
In my example: the LF is coverd by a sub (if you don't have a sub, get a tower). In the example of a micros-cube: where are the VHF and mid-range being covered? They aren't? Apples and oranges.
In my example: the Freq not being produced by the speaker any more was already not being produced because of the AVR crossover setting. Is that true in your Bose example? No.
In my example: the frequencies in question were non-localizeable in most rooms. Is that the case with the missing frequencies in your Bose example? No, it's not.
In my example: the speakers in question were comparable *except* for the stated "tower vs bookshelf" difference. All the same drivers if we look specifically at the 40 vs 60, and mostly in most other cases. Is that the case for comparing a non-Bose 2-way or 3-way to a Bose cube? No. none of the same drivers.
You are hacking a straw man.


I also said in my post which you clearly ignored that I said it CAN offer those things over a bookshelf. What you said was absolute statement not "it depends". I never falsely assumed anything I said CAN offer and CAN have advantages over bookshelfs. Totally true statement. Why do some get towers? Maybe they want more output than a bookshelf in their price range. 2 or 3 way does factor in to this because you made a blank statement that ALL towers offer is just bass. Nothing more.


Whats the OP to do then if his RB61's don't have enought output?? Guess he can't get towers since he need output not bass. rolleyes.gif
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post #14 of 18
1/1/13 at 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtpsuper24 View Post

I also said in my post which you clearly ignored that I said it CAN offer those things over a bookshelf.

And a bookshelf can offer that over towers.
Quote:
Whats the OP to do then if his RB61's don't have enought output?? Guess he can't get towers since he need output not bass. rolleyes.gif

If 115db isn't enough?

CHS Pro-10: 117db?

Single 8HT-lp : 122db?

Now my question to you: what tower were *you* suggesting for more output?
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post #15 of 18
1/1/13 at 6:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryLove View Post

And a bookshelf can offer that over towers.

Yes exactly my point. Theres too many variables to state an absolute either way(Towers only offer bass over bookshelfs PERIOD). My point until it seemed to boil down into somewhat of an arguement in a way, was that you can't just say towers only offer bass extension over bookshelfs, any more than I can say 12" subwoofers go deeper than 10" subwoofers. I'm sure theres bookshelfs that offer better, deeper bass than some towers. And theres some that offer more output over towers.

The OP can't fit towers, but that wasn't my issue. My issue was your first statement, which you came off as taking offense that I would dare question you.

All metal tweeters sound harsh, smaller woofers are faster than bigger woofers, large woofesr sound boomy, small woofers sound tight, towers only offer bass, ribbon tweeter are frail, wink.gif
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post #16 of 18
1/1/13 at 6:45pm
that seems to make the argument "different speakers sound different".

What *can* you do in a tower that you can't do in a bookshelf?

Can I put a pair of 10" drivers in a bookshelf? Maybe, but I've not seen that bookshelf.
Can I put a QWTL tuned to 50hz in a bookshelf? Perhaps if it is 5' deep.

If I go look at a B&W CM1 vs any CM tower, a 805 vs any 800 tower, a Paradigm S2 vs any Signature Tower, etc; what I see is a lower bottom frequency.
When I compared my S2's against S8's I found no difference once I included a sub. I believe that, generally, you get more for your dollar with a bookshelf unless you need full range.

Yes. If I compare my B&W N801's to a pair of Bose 501 bookshelves I will find more differences than extension; but I thought that was so painfully obvious that we all knew and agreed on it and we were discussing the inherent advantages of larger cabinets. (towers).

Honestly: I thought your most dependable point was regarding the advantages of 3-way vs 2-way and the tendency of tower-vs-bookshelf being the deciding point on that (see: Infinity Primus line for example). I think that has some real merit as an argument.

(yes: you could try to make the argument about arrays for tweeters and (more) midranges; but the towers that really do that are way outside the price-scope here)

And ribbon tweeters are frail wink.gif
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post #17 of 18
1/1/13 at 7:33pm
Get some Klipsch RB 81 and that should take care of things. Using 4 rb 61's- bad ideal.
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post #18 of 18
1/2/13 at 2:58pm
Thread Starter 
Ya I know it's just that the 81s won't fit.
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