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Velodyn VX-11, Dayton Sub-1200 or Bic f12 - Page 2

post #31 of 101
Thread Starter 
Cool, thanks both for the input...I think I'll just stick with the two vx-11's for now....I'm sure they will get even better as the break in too smile.gif

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #32 of 101
Thread Starter 
I don't know if I have some issues with my room and low bass or not...
I got to finally sit down and watch a full movie last night (other than Ratatouille the other day) with the new setup with the VX-11's and I think they sounded great. A huge improvement over my old sub....I could both hear and feel the bass much more than before...I watched Master and Commander on Bluray and enjoyed it quite a bit...I'm excited to see some more movies..still tweaking with the settings on the sub to try and get their levels right...it seems on some movies, the setting I have is great and doesn't need to be touched..but if I go to other movies (such as Inception) it just seems way too bassy sometimes, almost like it's out of place...and I am not sure if it is my settings or the movies themselves or the frequencies they happen to be hitting and my room...two noticeable scenes were in the beginning of Inception when they are all in the room after the beach scene and another was the train scene in Polar Express when the train arrives at the boys house. Both of these scenes seem to sound way too loud on the bass end....I have to turn the subs down quite a bit to get a sound that sounds right with those scenes....

I am not sure if it is me or not, but it seems sometimes, the lowest bass (I would guess 30-40Hz range) in my room is much louder than the higher bass...I can also tell this sometimes running a frequency sweep where all the bass but the lowest sounds great and then it gets a bit loud and overdone on the low end...any suggestions or opinions on this?
post #33 of 101
Changing placement may help smooth out the bass. The subs could easily sound different at the listening position when placed in different spots in the room.

Also, what kind of receiver are you running? If one with Audyssey MultEQ or MultEQ XT on your receiver, have you rerun Audyssey since you placed the subs? It does help to smooth out the bass (Audyssey 2EQ does not).
post #34 of 101
Thread Starter 
I have messed with a bunch of different sub configs and settle on the setup in one of my earlier posts...I have noticed this issue it seems no matter where I place my subs...which is strange...I don't remember if I have gone back and fully tested these scenes again with the new arrangement...

I have a Yamaha with YPAO, but unfortunately I do not have the mic for setting it up...I borrowed a friends audyssey mic (from what I have read, this is a probably a no-no and wont work right, but I'm working with what I have ) and tried using that and it worked the first time, then I rearranged my room and for some reason the mic wouldn't pick anything up anymore...so I gave it back and resorted to manual setup and measuring and checking SPL's with an SPL meter app on my Android phone (again, I know probably not the best method, but working with what I have)
post #35 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

I have messed with a bunch of different sub configs and settle on the setup in one of my earlier posts...I have noticed this issue it seems no matter where I place my subs...which is strange...I don't remember if I have gone back and fully tested these scenes again with the new arrangement...

I have a Yamaha with YPAO, but unfortunately I do not have the mic for setting it up...I borrowed a friends audyssey mic (from what I have read, this is a probably a no-no and wont work right, but I'm working with what I have ) and tried using that and it worked the first time, then I rearranged my room and for some reason the mic wouldn't pick anything up anymore...so I gave it back and resorted to manual setup and measuring and checking SPL's with an SPL meter app on my Android phone (again, I know probably not the best method, but working with what I have)


Some time ago I posted my Velodyne VRP setup procedure on this forum and received a lot of positive responses. I can't believe how many members PM me, so I dug this up from my archives. If you are running two subs do them separately. Once you are done you can compensate by lowering the gain from your AVR at the listening position using your spl meter. I hope it helps.

Quote:
First, I suggest you set up your system manually. All speakers set to small.
If you have purchased a new VRP sub you should be able to set it up like most subs. (The older versions amp suffer from low input sensitivity and require a bit more gain.) Next, I suggest you use an spl meter. (You can buy them on line or at Radio Shack.) Calibrate the sub in the stereo or direct mode, with the receiver's subwoofer line level output set at O and the crossover control on your receiver to 80HZ. The crossover on the sub should be set all the way up which defeats it. Once all your speakers and sub are balanced using your receiver's test tones, you can adjust the distance settings and them fine tune the AVR's line level output on your receiver to get the best results depending on the source.

1)The sub should always blend well with your mains and it shouldn't sound boomy or localized.

2)When running your receivers test tones, use your spl meter to set the main volume control close to reference which is about 70-75 db, (some receivers like my Pioneer do this automatically) and balance the system according to your receivers manual. (Set the subs gain so it produces the same levels as your mains from the listening position.) Then, set the phase switch to the point where the sub output is the loudest. (With pink noise you should even hear a difference at that level.)

3)Never set the subs gain much higher then 12:O Clock or the line level out to your sub higher then +4 (I have my gain at 9:30 and the receiver's line level at +2, and it's pounding. Now I'm running two subs at 0 or lower.

4)I also recommend using a Y connector to supply signal from your receiver to both inputs. This will help improve the sub's auto on function sensitivity especially on older models.




Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/16/13 at 12:19pm
post #36 of 101
Thread Starter 
Thanks Ian, I appreciate you digging this up.
I will have to try the suggestions. I have not tried setting each sub up individually, I have them both set between the 8 and 9 o'clock position and then ran a test tone using both subs. I do have both hooked up with a y-adapter/splitter as I remember reading in the manual it suggested this for the exact reasons you mentioned, better auto on functionality.

Do you think the SPL meter app on my android phone should be sufficient enough for this as it is all I have access to and budget for at the moment and don't know any other audio geeks that have one I could borrow around here.
post #37 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

Thanks Ian, I appreciate you digging this up.
I will have to try the suggestions. I have not tried setting each sub up individually, I have them both set between the 8 and 9 o'clock position and then ran a test tone using both subs. I do have both hooked up with a y-adapter/splitter as I remember reading in the manual it suggested this for the exact reasons you mentioned, better auto on functionality.

Do you think the SPL meter app on my android phone should be sufficient enough for this as it is all I have access to and budget for at the moment and don't know any other audio geeks that have one I could borrow around here.


You can order one on-line pretty cheap:


http://www.amazon.com/HDE-Digital-Sound-Level-Meter/dp/B005511F9Y/ref=sr_1_4?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1358373301&sr=1-4&keywords=spl+meter



Ian
post #38 of 101
Thread Starter 
Hmm...That's almost cheap enough to make me get it...I'll have to think on it...thanks again for the input, I'll let you know how it works out.
post #39 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

Hmm...That's almost cheap enough to make me get it...I'll have to think on it...thanks again for the input, I'll let you know how it works out.


Also, when making your initial adjustments, try raising the volume slightly higher on the subs. It will allow you lower the line level output to the recommended setting of 0 or less. This may reduce distortion which shows itself as boominess.



Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/16/13 at 3:20pm
post #40 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Also, when making your initial adjustments, try lowering the AVR's line level output and setting the volume slightly higher on the subs. This may reduce distortion which shows itself as boominess.



Ian

Pardon my ignorance, but what are you referring to as the line level output? Is the the DB setting or "speaker level" setting? I usually start with it set to 0 for my adjustments....are you saying it might be better to set it to a negative value and turn up the subs more? I haven't had to go into the positive values to get things loud enough for me yet...

Or are you referring to the LFE level, which is also currently at 0
post #41 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

Pardon my ignorance, but what are you referring to as the line level output? Is the the DB setting or "speaker level" setting? I usually start with it set to 0 for my adjustments....are you saying it might be better to set it to a negative value and turn up the subs more? I haven't had to go into the positive values to get things loud enough for me yet...

Or are you referring to the LFE level, which is also currently at 0


Yes. The AVR line level output is the LFE. If it's at 0 and your sub volume is under 9 o'clock, you may want to lower it to about -5 and raise the sub volume a bit.



Ian
post #42 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

I have a Yamaha with YPAO, but unfortunately I do not have the mic for setting it up...I borrowed a friends audyssey mic (from what I have read, this is a probably a no-no and wont work right, but I'm working with what I have )

Right. Not a good idea. The Audyssey mic is calibrated for Audyssey. It would be worth getting a new one because the mic will also help to EQ your other speakers beyond just setting the levels:

http://www.newremotecontrol.com/catalog/dyn_accy_data.php?catnum=WN649600
post #43 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Yes. The AVR line level output is the LFE. If it's at 0 and your sub volume is under 9 o'clock, you may want to lower it to about -5 and raise the sub volume a bit.



Ian
That is what I was thinking, I will have to do that then....I can't get the sub up past the 8-9 o'clock position...it gets way to loud to quick, great info! Thanks
post #44 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Right. Not a good idea. The Audyssey mic is calibrated for Audyssey. It would be worth getting a new one because the mic will also help to EQ your other speakers beyond just setting the levels:

http://www.newremotecontrol.com/catalog/dyn_accy_data.php?catnum=WN649600

Awesome, thanks cel4145...I was actually googleing around for a mic but was having trouble finding a decently priced one...a lot of the link I found went to the yamaha store which seems not to have it anymore, so that link was very helpful...

I actually email Yamaha support earlier and finally heard back from, they actually do sell it on their store also and the model is slightly different than the one you linked...on that site, it is this one:
http://www.newremotecontrol.com/catalog/dyn_accy_data.php?catnum=WB699600

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction again though
Edited by rnconync - 1/17/13 at 12:29pm
post #45 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Yes. The AVR line level output is the LFE. If it's at 0 and your sub volume is under 9 o'clock, you may want to lower it to about -5 and raise the sub volume a bit.



Ian

So I messed with this some last night and the LFE out would not make any noticeable difference, It says it only takes effect when receiving a Dolby Digital or DTS signal, therefore, it seems when I play the test tone it makes no difference in the volume, so I can't calibrate that way. The only thing I was able to do so that I could turn the dial up without bottoming out the settings on my receiver to the -10db setting for my sub level was to remove the y-splitter splitting the RCA into both the L and R inputs...when I just did a single hookup, the volume dropped to levels that I could then turn up the dial a little bit (say between 9-10 now) and get about the same settings on my receiver as I did with both RCA inputs hooked up and the dial at about 2-3.

So now I'm not sure which is better, one RCA input with higher volume, or two with lower volume since the double input increases the output.
post #46 of 101
Doesn't your receiver have a sub line level out? If you just have an LFE output on your AVR, it should still carry the signal for the sub input whether it's receiving a discrete multichannel source or not. If your sub line level out range is -10 to + 10, with your setting at -5, the input sensitivity of the VX 11 is low enough so that even with a Y connection you should be able to run the gain on the sub amp above 9 O:Clock with out bottoming it out, even by a long shot. Maybe you can post a picture of your receiver's back panel and or model number so I can check it out.


Ian
post #47 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Doesn't your receiver have a sub line level out? If you just have an LFE output on your AVR, it should still carry the signal for the sub input whether it's receiving a discrete multichannel source or not. If your sub line level out range is -10 to + 10, with your setting at -5, the input sensitivity of the VX 11 is low enough so that even with a Y connection you should be able to run the gain on the sub amp above 9 O:Clock with out bottoming it out, even by a long shot. Maybe you can post a picture of your receiver's back panel and or model number so I can check it out.


Ian

I have separate level setting from -10db to +10 db for each speaker including the subwoofer...but if I am at say 9 o'clock on the dial of the subwoofer, even with just one hooked up, I have to go all the way down to -10 to get it to match the level of my other speakers.....and it is still just a bit too much. If I ditch the y-adapter and run a single cable in, then I get lower output from the sub and can set it that way only going to around the -5 range for the subwoofer level...

Here is a link to my receiver and there should also be a manual downlaod link there too:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/htr/htr-5760_black__u/?mode=model

I'm hooked up to the subwoofer port under the pre-out section on the back of the receiver where the manual stats to hook it up (plus there is nowhere else to hook it to)
post #48 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

I have separate level setting from -10db to +10 db for each speaker including the subwoofer...but if I am at say 9 o'clock on the dial of the subwoofer, even with just one hooked up, I have to go all the way down to -10 to get it to match the level of my other speakers.....and it is still just a bit too much. If I ditch the y-adapter and run a single cable in, then I get lower output from the sub and can set it that way only going to around the -5 range for the subwoofer level...

Here is a link to my receiver and there should also be a manual downlaod link there too:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/htr/htr-5760_black__u/?mode=model

I'm hooked up to the subwoofer port under the pre-out section on the back of the receiver where the manual stats to hook it up (plus there is nowhere else to hook it to)


What speakers are you running for your mains? It sounds like their sensitivity is low. You may need to bring the mains level up higher and re-balance your system accordingly.


Ian
post #49 of 101
Thread Starter 
I have the energy take classic speakers...
http://www.energy-speakers.com/home-theater-systems/?sku=TK-CLASSIC-5-PACK
Currently most of the mains are already at a + 4 db setting or so...
If I set my receiver volume to 0db and calibrate to about a 75 db level...the mains end up almost maxing out at about +9-10db....last time I did this I did not have the new subs...should I try this again?
Edited by rnconync - 1/18/13 at 4:38pm
post #50 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

I have the energy take classic speakers...
http://www.energy-speakers.com/home-theater-systems/?sku=TK-CLASSIC-5-PACK
Currently most of the mains are already at a + 4 db setting or so...
If I set my receiver volume to 0db and calibrate to about a 75 db level...the mains end up almost maxing out at about +9-10db....last time I did this I did not have the new subs...should I try this again?


Your speakers sensitivity is 89db. You shouldn't be having these issues. Make sure your Dynamic Range Control (DRC), LFE channel attenuation and all Auto EQ controls etc.. are OFF. Set all speakers to small and their levels to flat (0). Set your AVR's Sub Out/LFE to -5 and then adjust the sub's gain controls to the same level as the speakers. You need to use an accurate spl meter to do this correctly.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/18/13 at 9:19pm
post #51 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

Awesome, thanks cel4145...I was actually googleing around for a mic but was having trouble finding a decently priced one...a lot of the link I found went to the yamaha store which seems not to have it anymore, so that link was very helpful...

Based on the struggles you are having with setup, I think you should wait on the mic for YPAO and then deal with it. While you are waiting for the mic, learn the difference between gain matching and level matching your subs. Choose one method and go from there with sub setup and YPAO smile.gif
post #52 of 101
I prefer level matching, and in my room it has worked out well with my dual Velos. If you insist on using auto calibration you still need to do a proper initial set up. This is from the HSU forum and although it's about setting up dual subs for Audyessey, it may help:
Quote:

Step 1: Subwoofer placement. Make sure that the distance from each sub to the primary listening spot is exactly the same. This is because Audyssey calculates distance for only one subwoofer, and if the distance to the two subwoofers is significantly different, the sub delay setting will not produce optimal results. (Unfortunately, this places a severe restriction on where the subs can be placed in most listening rooms. Many experts recommend moving the subs around to achieve the best bass response, but it two subs are used, Audyssey calibration will not be optimal unless the subs are exactly the same distance from the listener.)

Step 2: Setting the subwoofer levels. Since the acoustic characteristics of the room are likely to be somewhat different for each of the subwoofers because they are in different locations, it’s important to set the volume level for each subwoofer to achieve roughly the same volume at the primary listening spot. This is accomplished as follows:
1. Place a Radio Shack sound pressure meter at the primary listening spot.
2. In the AV receiver setup menu, select Speaker Config/Channel Level, and generate a tone for the subwoofer.
3. Adjust the audio output levels on each subwoofer to achieve the same level at the primary listening spot, as shown on the SPL.
Note: at this point we don’t know if the volume levels on the subs are the correct levels-we only know that the settings produce a balanced output. The next step will determine if the volume settings are too high, too low, or just right.

Step 3: Using Audyssey to determine the initial subwoofer volume setting. Do the following:
1. Run the Audyssey calibration with the microphone in the primary listening spot.
2. After one iteration of the test tones, go ahead and select “calculate”.
3. After the calculation completes, examine the resulting speaker levels.
4. Note the level setting for the subwoofer. If the setting reduces the subwoofer output over 5db (e.g. -8db or -9db), then the subwoofer volume setting is too high. If the setting boosts the subwoofer output by more than 5db (e.g. +8db or +9db), then the subwoofer volume is set too low. The ideal result is to have Audyssey set the subwoofer volume in the +/- 1db to 2db range. Why? Because this allows the greatest flexibility to tweak the subwoofer levels after the Audyssey calibration has completed.
5. If the level setting is too high or too low, cancel the Audyssey calibration, and repeat Steps 2 and 3 until the subwoofer level falls into the +/- 1db to 2db range.

Step 3: Complete the Audyssey calibration. Make sure to use all eight microphone positions!

Step 4: Inspect the resulting speaker configurations after the calibration has completed and make any changes according to your preferences.
1. It is recommended to set all speakers to “small”.
2. Adjust the crossover frequencies for each speaker according to your preferences (e.g. 80 Hz). This does not affect the Audyssey calibration.
3. Set the Audyssey Dynamic Volume for each input according to your preference (e.g. Dynamic Volume “on”, setting “Day”).

Step 5: Test the results! You should hear tight bass integrated seamlessly with your other speakers.


Ian
post #53 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Your speakers sensitivity is 89db. You shouldn't be having these issues. Make sure your Dynamic Range Control (DRC), LFE channel attenuation and all Auto EQ controls etc.. are OFF. Set all speakers to small and their levels to flat (0). Set your AVR's Sub Out/LFE to -5 and then adjust the sub's gain controls to the same level as the speakers. You need to use an accurate spl meter to do this correctly.


Ian
Thanks again, I am not sure why I am having these issues...I even reset my receiver to its factory defaults and started the setup again,but get mostly the same results...I am just using the test tones that my receiver generates to do this. Things seem a little better now that I have recalibrated at the 75 db level again...I am able to dial the subs up a hair more, but my speakers are still way in the positive levels and the sub in the negative levels (around +9 for speakers and -8 for the sub). Things sound tighter, but the settings seem to be at their extremes....and it sounds like this is not the norm. I will test again tonight or sometime soon with a regular spl meter rather than the one on my phone and see how the results vary.....
post #54 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

Thanks again, I am not sure why I am having these issues...I even reset my receiver to its factory defaults and started the setup again,but get mostly the same results...I am just using the test tones that my receiver generates to do this. Things seem a little better now that I have recalibrated at the 75 db level again...I am able to dial the subs up a hair more, but my speakers are still way in the positive levels and the sub in the negative levels (around +9 for speakers and -8 for the sub). Things sound tighter, but the settings seem to be at their extremes....and it sounds like this is not the norm. I will test again tonight or sometime soon with a regular spl meter rather than the one on my phone and see how the results vary.....

What are you using to measure your speakers? Hopefully not a phone SPL app.
post #55 of 101
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

What are you using to measure your speakers? Hopefully not a phone SPL app.
You got it.....a phone spl app...I akes a question earlier if it was worth using, but never got an answer...I'm guessing it works for the speakers, but when it comes to the sub, it will crap out and maybe that is where I am having the problem...but I don't know if I can justify buying one ( the same as the ypao mic) for just one setup...I don't know how much different my results would be over a manual configure...I'm sure they would be a little bit more accurate...but not sure....my system overall only cost me about $375 for everything including the reciever...which I only paid $20 for...so it's kind of hard to swallow $30 for the mic...even though in the grand scheme of things $30 isn't that bad...but add that to an spl meter and it adds up...I would love to have both, but its just a matter of cost, I'm on a limited budget....I'll probably pick up one or the other sooner than later though.
post #56 of 101
Many of the phone mics don't measure sub bass output very well, if it all. So it could easily be throwing off your setup efforts.

Most room correction software does more than simply measure output and set channel levels. It also adjust time delays and EQs the speakers--something you can't do at all with an SPL meter with the timing, and it would be a pain to set the EQ unless you like running frequency tones and trying to measure.

And you can level match your subs with YPAO. If both your subs were turned on and level matched such that YPAO determined a subwoofer channel level of 0 db, then if you turn one off, you ideally should end up roughly at -3db. That's what you get from having the extra sub.

So measure one sub turned on with YPAO and adjust the gain until it's at -3db. Turn it off, then measure the other sub with YPAO until it's at -3db. Then turn them both on and measure again. Now there might be some variation, but that should get you pretty close, much close than a phone SPL meter smile.gif
post #57 of 101
If you weren't using the phone app and just dialed it in by ear you would probably be happy with it by now. The phone app is just enough to frustrate you. Dial it in by ear and be satisfied with it or get the mic. Personally I used the ypao mic and wasn't happy with it so I dialed it in by ear and like it much better. It took some time and trial and error but you really don't need it to tell you what sounds good. Might look like hell on a graph but who cares. I've had lots of people tell me my system sounds great.
Edited by Bond 007 - 1/20/13 at 4:47pm
post #58 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Might look like hell on a graph but who cares. I've had lots of people tell me my system sounds great.

+1

If it sounds good to you, who cares what the software says!
post #59 of 101
Thread Starter 
Haha..Yeah...I guess I have not tried the "by ear" method yet...I'll give it a whirl too.....I don't know if I could calibrate the subs correctly by ear...they seem like they would be a bit harder...I don't think on the Yamaha you have a at of setting delay, is this correct? Is it all done with just the distance setting? My old JVC reciever had distance and delay for each speaker...
post #60 of 101
Seems kinda redundant except I guess it would be nice to have that option. Delay is distance. The distance is calculated by the length of time elapsed between when the signal is sent to the speaker and when it is received by the microphone. Time delay. In fact, the only thing that I kept from my ypao settings was distance. You can measure with a tape the distance from your seating position to each speaker and that will work. I know that is heresy and I will get comments. What do you think people did before computers and without spl meters? It is not perfect nor does it need to be. No offense but you don't have a $5000 system (neither do I but not too far from it) and you won't know the difference.

You can always spring for the right equipment and you will have it for next time. If you don't have any experience in setting up a system without a computer and a decent working knowledge of stereo electronics and what all the settings do then that would be your best bet.

Also you can't expect to just set it up by ear in an hr and say there you go I'm done. Set it up with known settings that are basic for any setup. Then just use it and as you listen to it. Over time you will notice things that don't quite sound right. Then you tweak it. Then you listen for a while and tweak it some more. You're not gonna do it in an hr like a computer. It might take a week until you get it where you think it sounds really good. Then you will probably end up tweaking it some more. I really don't mind it. I get some satisfaction out of noticing something and being able to diagnose it and make it sound better. But you have to know the ins and outs of how things work and why. Some of these people that just let the computer set it up and never look back I guarantee aren't getting the best out of their system. I ran ypao 3 times in a row and got 3 different results. How accurate can that be?

What model Yamaha do you have? I have the 671 and it has an excellent 7 band eq built in. Once you figure out how to use it to its full potential you can work wonders. Especially with a patched together system like yours. You can individually eq each speaker according to its potential and maximize its best sound characteristics or help compensate for its deficiencies. I mentioned that in the 671 thread and hardly anybody even knew that it had an eq because its all about YPAO this and Audyssey that. If I posted this in the Audyssey thread I would probably be banned from AVS. rolleyes.gif
Anyway, I've given my colleagues enough ammunition. Bring it on. I will not argue. I'm just a nut.
Edited by Bond 007 - 1/21/13 at 5:31am
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Velodyn VX-11, Dayton Sub-1200 or Bic f12