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Velodyn VX-11, Dayton Sub-1200 or Bic f12 - Page 3

post #61 of 101
1/21/13 at 8:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

Seems kinda redundant except I guess it would be nice to have that option. Delay is distance. The distance is calculated by the length of time elapsed between when the signal is sent to the speaker and when it is received by the microphone. Time delay. In fact, the only thing that I kept from my ypao settings was distance. You can measure with a tape the distance from your seating position to each speaker and that will work. I know that is heresy and I will get comments. What do you think people did before computers and without spl meters? It is not perfect nor does it need to be. No offense but you don't have a $5000 system (neither do I but not too far from it) and you won't know the difference.

You can always spring for the right equipment and you will have it for next time. If you don't have any experience in setting up a system without a computer and a decent working knowledge of stereo electronics and what all the settings do then that would be your best bet.

Also you can't expect to just set it up by ear in an hr and say there you go I'm done. Set it up with known settings that are basic for any setup. Then just use it and as you listen to it. Over time you will notice things that don't quite sound right. Then you tweak it. Then you listen for a while and tweak it some more. You're not gonna do it in an hr like a computer. It might take a week until you get it where you think it sounds really good. Then you will probably end up tweaking it some more. I really don't mind it. I get some satisfaction out of noticing something and being able to diagnose it and make it sound better. But you have to know the ins and outs of how things work and why. Some of these people that just let the computer set it up and never look back I guarantee aren't getting the best out of their system. I ran ypao 3 times in a row and got 3 different results. How accurate can that be?

What model Yamaha do you have? I have the 671 and it has an excellent 7 band eq built in. Once you figure out how to use it to its full potential you can work wonders. Especially with a patched together system like yours. You can individually eq each speaker according to its potential and maximize its best sound characteristics or help compensate for its deficiencies. I mentioned that in the 671 thread and hardly anybody even knew that it had an eq because its all about YPAO this and Audyssey that. If I posted this in the Audyssey thread I would probably be banned from AVS. rolleyes.gif
Anyway, I've given my colleagues enough ammunition. Bring it on. I will not argue. I'm just a nut.


Very sound advise! (No pun intended) biggrin.gif I've never been a big advocate of auto calibration. It's never worked to my satisfaction. I've spend many hours tweaking my system, and continue to check my adjustments now and then.. Although it's not a 'state of the art system' it sounds like one. One night I was in my garage which is adjacent to my den and I had forgotten that I left my system and DVR on. A movie started playing which had a chase scene, and there was a crash. It sent me running into the room thinking that maybe one of the trees behind my house had fallen. If you want to get the most out of your system, auto calibration or no auto calibration, it takes work. Reaching out to forum members for input will help get you started, but there's a lot of trial and error before you will get the results that you want.


Ian
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post #62 of 101
1/21/13 at 5:05pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the great info Bond...I went out to RadioShack today and picked up their spl meter to test with and see how it compared.....with no surprise, my phone mic and spl meter app where causing me to up the volumes by about 25% or more than what readings I got with the spl meter...especially on the bass end...it still seems that no matter what, especially using the dual rca inputs on the velodyne I still have to have the volume WAY down on the subs, like between the 6 and 9 position...I think they are even lower than before now since my phone was making me calibrate it way higher than the spl meter. The bass definately sounds more balances... I don't seem to notice any real boominess either and the front speakers and the surrounds seem to transition better and sound better now after matching with the spl meter.
But I still have the problem of not being able to bring the volumes up on the sub very much at all...is this really a "problem" anymore? Or something to worry about?

This is how I calibrated, I turned the volume up on my reciever to read 0db and then set each speaker to 75 db c-weighted, slow on the spl meter. Each speaker ended up being between +2 a +4db and the sub is all the way at -9db on the receiver level and about 75db on the spl meter reading. With the gain in about the 7 or 8 o'clock position with 6 being no output.

Again, it seems to sound much better, but should I be concerned anymore with not being able to get out of that 7-8 o'clock position? Is I go single rca in I can maybe get it between the 8-9 position, but that is still about it.

I really appreciate everyone's input and feedback so far, it has been very helpful andi am learning a lot.
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post #63 of 101
1/21/13 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

I still have to have the volume WAY down on the subs, like between the 6 and 9 position..

That's not a volume. It's a gain control. Don't think about it in terms of whether or not it's "way down." Where the gain is set is dependent upon a number of factors. Move the subs to another position in the room or move the listening position and it would be different. In a bigger room it probably be higher. So the only way to know where it should be set is with measurements (well, unless you go for the by ear test, but that is often inaccurate).

And truthfully, the fact that the channel level on the receiver ended up as -9db means the gain on the sub is higher than it needs to be. It would be better matched if the gain on the sub was such that a 75db test tone resulted in a 0db setting for the subwoofer channel. Right now, your receiver is having to turn the signal down to compensate for how high the gain is on the sub.
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post #64 of 101
1/21/13 at 7:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

That's not a volume. It's a gain control. Don't think about it in terms of whether or not it's "way down." Where the gain is set is dependent upon a number of factors. Move the subs to another position in the room or move the listening position and it would be different. In a bigger room it probably be higher. So the only way to know where it should be set is with measurements (well, unless you go for the by ear test, but that is often inaccurate).

And truthfully, the fact that the channel level on the receiver ended up as -9db means the gain on the sub is higher than it needs to be. It would be better matched if the gain on the sub was such that a 75db test tone resulted in a 0db setting for the subwoofer channel. Right now, your receiver is having to turn the signal down to compensate for how high the gain is on the sub.
I think you missed the part where I mention how low the volume/gain already is on the sub. it's almost in a position where it would be physically impossible to turn it down any more...I don't think I could probably set the sub to 75 db with the receivers level at 0 db, it would be the very slightest turn of the gain on the sub above the off position. Does that make sense? Or am I talking gibberish?
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post #65 of 101
1/21/13 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

I think you missed the part where I mention how low the volume/gain already is on the sub. it's almost in a position where it would be physically impossible to turn it down any more...I don't think I could probably set the sub to 75 db with the receivers level at 0 db, it would be the very slightest turn of the gain on the sub above the off position. Does that make sense? Or am I talking gibberish?

Why does it matter if you have to just turn it a tiny little bit versus a lot? It's probably that the gain on the VX-11 amp is very, very sensitive. If the gain on both your subs are that sensitive, then there is nothing wrong with the subs. Assuming that you have measured correctly with your SPL meter, the only problem is your perspective that you shouldn't have to make very slight turn adjustments smile.gif
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post #66 of 101
1/21/13 at 7:48pm
One more time to be sure. What is the sub gain setting and what is the receiver sub volume? What are the crossover settings for both also? What kind of receiver and sub? I don't feel like going back and forth between 10 different posts.

I am also confused about what you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to get better sound or better settings?
Edited by Bond 007 - 1/21/13 at 8:13pm
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post #67 of 101
1/21/13 at 8:16pm
Thread Starter 
Receiver is a Yamaha the-5760
Subs are velodyne vx-11
Xover on subs is all the way up
Xover on receiver is 120 with energy take satellites
Sub gain setting is about as close to being at the lowest setting as possible..maybe dot one of 9
Receiver sub level is -9db
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post #68 of 101
1/21/13 at 8:18pm
So if you want more output from the subs turn the receiver sub volume up from -9. Try -4.

I feel like I'm getting in the way here.
cel4145 is much more capable than I am for this scenario.
Good luck.
Edited by Bond 007 - 1/21/13 at 8:28pm
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post #69 of 101
1/21/13 at 8:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond 007 View Post

So if you want more output from the subs turn the receiver sub volume up from -9. Try -4.

I feel like I'm getting in the way here.
cel4145 is much more capable than I am for this scenario.
Good luck.

No. I'm not more capable than you.

Help me to help him. LOL
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post #70 of 101
1/21/13 at 8:48pm
Please, read my posts.The problem that he's having is, that even with the AVR's line level adjusted to it's minimum setting, he can only set the gain control on the sub up to around the 8:O'clock setting. The VX11's are not that sensitive. He should be able to set his initial line level out to -5 and the gain to at least 9:O'clock on each of those subs with out overwhelming his mains which have a fairly high sensitivity rating of 89db. At -9db with the sub set below 8:O'clock his mains are now running 2 to 4db hot. You need to raise the sub to the same level as the mains. Bring the line level up to -5. Take your readings near field ( 3 meters or less ) and post your readings for us. You may be having room gain issues. Also set your crossover closer to 80Hz, you can always tweak it later if you need to after you have balanced your system out.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/21/13 at 9:16pm
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post #71 of 101
1/21/13 at 8:50pm
Thread Starter 
Haha...no, I don't want more output...It's almost too much output...from earlier Ian was mentioning I should try and have the subs configured with the gain somewhere in e 9-12 position to get the sound a little tighter and better. I am having trouble configuring the level to the 75 db level even with the receiver at -9 and the gain almost to none...they just get very loud very quick..maybe it's just my room, I have had them in many positions with similar results.
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post #72 of 101
1/21/13 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

Receiver is a Yamaha the-5760
Subs are velodyne vx-11
Xover on subs is all the way up
Xover on receiver is 120 with energy take satellites
Sub gain setting is about as close to being at the lowest setting as possible..maybe dot one of 9
Receiver sub level is -9db

So your options are leave it where is or turn the gain down such that the subwoofer channel level is closer to 0.

Here's the reasoning behind the latter. If the sub gain is very high like it is now, then the receiver has to turn down the line output just so the sub can crank up the input signal. Why have it do that? If the gain on the sub is such that subwoofer channel level is at zero, then the receiver doesn't have to adjust it all. Will it make an audible difference? Some people say it does. Some not.

Now if you are going to boost the sub channel level beyond what calibration determine it should be, then offset that. So if you want 2 extra db of boost above what is measured, then shoot for a calibrated subwoofer channel level of -2db, and then turn the subwoofer channel level up 2 extra db to get to zero.

But forget about where the dial is positioned on the gain (how low in number it is). That's not important. Set it where it needs to be to achieve the proper calibration.
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post #73 of 101
1/21/13 at 9:10pm
I'm new to this stuff, so please forgive my ignorance....

If I am reading this correctly, it seems to me, if the receiver is at -9 and the sub gain is barely cracked from the 0 position and the subs are still overpowering perhaps a line attenuator is in order?
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post #74 of 101
1/21/13 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

I'm new to this stuff, so please forgive my ignorance....

If I am reading this correctly, it seems to me, if the receiver is at -9 and the sub gain is barely cracked from the 0 position and the subs are still overpowering perhaps a line attenuator is in order?


I edited my previous post for clarity, but you are on the right track. Attenuation is not an option, but placement maybe. I need him to take near field readings to see what's going on. Thanks.



Ian
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post #75 of 101
1/21/13 at 9:59pm
I'll just keep reading and learning....
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post #76 of 101
1/21/13 at 10:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

I'm new to this stuff, so please forgive my ignorance....

If I am reading this correctly, it seems to me, if the receiver is at -9 and the sub gain is barely cracked from the 0 position and the subs are still overpowering perhaps a line attenuator is in order?
This is exactly what I am saying...it would be hard for me to go much lower with the gain. If I did I would have no output from the sub because the gain would be at 0.

Cel4145....I don't have the option to turn the gain down on the sub as it already is almost at its minimum...at its minimum there would be no output from the sub

For all.. The way I placed my subs was to put one where I sit and do the sub crawl...the rear right and front right of my room is where I get the best bass, I have chosen to place one sub in the rear right and another at the front left to balance things out a bit, with both on the right side I didn't feel it sounded as good or balanced.
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post #77 of 101
1/21/13 at 10:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

I edited my previous post for clarity, but you are on the right track. Attenuation is not an option, but placement maybe. I need him to take near field readings to see what's going on. Thanks.



Ian
Ian, what exactly would you like me to do in order to better help you help me? Playing around earlier, I put the spl meter near one sub and the reading was about 90-95db ( if I'm remembering right) while at the listening position it was at about 75db
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post #78 of 101
1/21/13 at 10:13pm
Thread Starter 
So
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

Please, read my posts.The problem that he's having is, that even with the AVR's line level adjusted to it's minimum setting, he can only set the gain control on the sub up to around the 8:O'clock setting. The VX11's are not that sensitive. He should be able to set his initial line level out to -5 and the gain to at least 9:O'clock on each of those subs with out overwhelming his mains which have a fairly high sensitivity rating of 89db. At -9db with the sub set below 8:O'clock his mains are now running 2 to 4db hot. You need to raise the sub to the same level as the mains. Bring the line level up to -5. Take your readings near field ( 3 meters or less ) and post your readings for us. You may be having room gain issues. Also set your crossover closer to 80Hz, you can always tweak it later if you need to after you have balanced your system out.


Ian
Sorry, disregard my last post to you Ian, I just saw this...must have posted it while I was writing my earlier response and I didn't notice it until reading back just now. I'll try to do this in the next day or two and get back to you. Can you clarify what you mean about bringing the sub up to the same level as the mains? Are you talking about physically the same height?
Edited by rnconync - 1/21/13 at 10:19pm
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post #79 of 101
1/22/13 at 7:10am
Quote:
You may be having room gain issues.
Perhaps what would be considered optimal placement is working against you in your room due to "room gain"
If it were me, I would do the sub crawl again, except this time, I would place the subs where there is a "null" just to see if it helps...They can always be moved back...
I am new to this stuff, so my thoughts could be way off the mark....
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post #80 of 101
1/22/13 at 8:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Perhaps what would be considered optimal placement is working against you in your room due to "room gain"
If it were me, I would do the sub crawl again, except this time, I would place the subs where there is a "null" just to see if it helps...They can always be moved back...
I am new to this stuff, so my thoughts could be way off the mark....

One of the subs (the front left) is in one of the weaker spots in the room and I am having the same issues with it...as a refresher to everyone without going back a page or two, here is my room layout again.
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post #81 of 101
1/22/13 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

One of the subs (the front left) is in one of the weaker spots in the room and I am having the same issues with it...as a refresher to everyone without going back a page or two, here is my room layout again.

What is the issue? You stated earlier that the subs sound pretty good. Other than the fact that you don't feel you can turn the gain down a little more to better match the receiver sensitivity, there doesn't seem to be a problem. And if you can't do that, seems like you are done smile.gif
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post #82 of 101
1/22/13 at 9:09am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

What is the issue? You stated earlier that the subs sound pretty good. Other than the fact that you don't feel you can turn the gain down a little more to better match the receiver sensitivity, there doesn't seem to be a problem. And if you can't do that, seems like you are done smile.gif

I just working off what Ian and I were discussing about the fact that I should not have to have the subs gain and such a ridiculously low level in combination with the receiver being set at it's minimum level etc...
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post #83 of 101
1/22/13 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

So
Sorry, disregard my last post to you Ian, I just saw this...must have posted it while I was writing my earlier response and I didn't notice it until reading back just now. I'll try to do this in the next day or two and get back to you. Can you clarify what you mean about bringing the sub up to the same level as the mains? Are you talking about physically the same height?


You need to balance your system, which means all speakers including each sub should produce the same SPL. First, set each speaker level with your sub's off. Then turn on each sub at a time, with the line level output set to -5. Then adjust the sub's gain control so that it matches the level of your other speakers. Do this near field first as I posted before, and then record your results. Then check the settings at your seating position with both subs running to see how hot the subs may be be running when compared to your mains. Record those readings as well. Post all your results. Remember to adjust only one speaker and one sub at a time near field. We can tweak the settings at the seating position once we see what's going on. Thanks.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/22/13 at 9:46am
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post #84 of 101
1/22/13 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

I just working off what Ian and I were discussing about the fact that I should not have to have the subs gain and such a ridiculously low level in combination with the receiver being set at it's minimum level etc...

With sub calibration, your measurements determine where the gain should be set, not whether or not you think that it's too low on the dial. It is not "ridiculous" if your measurements are correct, if you didn't make an error.

So do what Ian just said, which is a variation of what I told you to do earlier using an SPL meter instead of YPAO. And do NOT worry about whether you have to turn the gain down on the back of the subs some more. It's irrelevant to worry about that. Forget that. Worry about what your measurements tell you, whether or no you are taking them correctly, and what the receiver settings are.
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post #85 of 101
1/22/13 at 9:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

You need to balance your system, which means all speakers including each sub should produce the same SPL. First, set all the speakers levels with your sub's off. Then turn on each sub at a time, with the line level output set to -5. Then adjust the sub's gain control so that it matches the level of your other speakers. Do this near field first as I posted before, and then record your results. Then check the settings at your seating position with both subs running to see how hot the subs may be be running when compared to your mains. Record those readings as well. Post all your results. Thanks.


Ian
This is what I currently have and did to set my speakers up. All of the subs and speakers matched to the 75db on the spl meter I bought using the tone generated by my receiver. I did each speaker individually, and then each sub individually and then check both subs together and have about a 3-5db increase when both subs are plugged in at the listening position. the only difference is that I had to have the receiver level for the sub at -9 instead of -5 to be able to get a little more movement out of the dial(which really doesn't give me much if anymore room to play with), it was too difficult to tune it in because of the sensitivity on the gain on the subs and I am already working with such a small area on the gain knob anyway.
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post #86 of 101
1/22/13 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

This is what I currently have and did to set my speakers up. All of the subs and speakers matched to the 75db on the spl meter I bought using the tone generated by my receiver. I did each speaker individually, and then each sub individually and then check both subs together and have about a 3-5db increase when both subs are plugged in at the listening position. the only difference is that I had to have the receiver level for the sub at -9 instead of -5 to be able to get a little more movement out of the dial(which really doesn't give me much if anymore room to play with), it was too difficult to tune it in because of the sensitivity on the gain on the subs and I am already working with such a small area on the gain knob anyway.

The problem with your set up is that if you listen to a hot soundtrack like Inception, you don't have much room to turn it down from the AVR's remote. As I posted before, you may be having placement issues, so I need you to take readings near field, so I can compare your results. Set the line level to -5 and drop the gain on the sub instead, regardless of how low it is set unless it cuts out.



Ian
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post #87 of 101
1/22/13 at 12:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post

The problem with your set up is that if you listen to a hot soundtrack like Inception, you don't have much room to turn it down from the AVR's remote. As I posted before, you may be having placement issues, so I need you to take readings near field, so I can compare your results. Set the line level to -5 and drop the gain on the sub instead, regardless of how low it is set unless it cuts out.



Ian

I'll try this tonight....see what kind of room I have to fiddle with...
thanks
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post #88 of 101
1/22/13 at 7:39pm
Thread Starter 
So here is the results.. I put a fresh battery in the spl meter ...the one I had yesterday fritzed out, must have been a crap battery.
I placed the sound meter at the listening position all levels on the receiver at 0 except for the sub at -5 and then played the test tones on my reciever for each speaker and calibrated for 75 db at the listening position.
FL 1.5db
FR .5db
C 1db
SL .5db
SR 1.5db
SBL -1
SBR 0db
Each sub between 73-77db...the meter fluctuates and won't hold at one db reading for the subs...maybe due to the nature of the white noise my reciever produces
Both subs together are about 80-81db at listening position.

Near Field Readings all taken at about 6 inches from the speakers
All where right at about 95db
The subs were at about 94db on one and 96db on the other

If I were to guess, all this looks pretty normal now?
The gain on the subs is still very close to the 8 o'clock position, but things seem to sound balanced now, even in the more bassy scenes and movies like Inception. I did however notice an issue with one of my subs tonight that seems intermiitent..this is e first time I experienced it when setting the gain dial, but it might have been there all along...sometimes when the gain knob is at the 0 position, I still get loud bass where I should have none ( like bass when the knob is at 1/4 of the way) then sometimes when I adjusted it, it would be back down to nothing at the 0 position, so I think I might have some issues with the gain knob on that sub...maybe I will have to contact velodyne now.
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post #89 of 101
1/22/13 at 7:51pm
Thread Starter 
Crap...after noticing the gain knob issue, I also notice now that the speaker on that same sub makes a popping noise a lot now where it didn't before..anyone know what this might be?
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post #90 of 101
1/22/13 at 8:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

If I were to guess, all this looks pretty normal now?

Yes. All speakers should be within about 1.5db of each other. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by rnconync View Post

Crap...after noticing the gain knob issue, I also notice now that the speaker on that same sub makes a popping noise a lot now where it didn't before..anyone know what this might be?



Maybe an issue with the amp. Since the sub is new have them exchange it. Also, there is no need to use the Y's since you have more then enough initial gain to begin with.


Ian
Edited by mailiang - 1/22/13 at 9:03pm
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