Still on the lookout for a low-input lag plasma TV... any help?

st50 has about 16ms

You have to remember that most tests are done with game mode on, meaning the graphics WILL suffer a lot. 16 ms is one frame, and games this gen and next will be at 30 frames per second. So, 16(30) or 480 ms per second of gameplay. (obviously). Now, where this get's interesting is when we factor in our reaction speeds. The fastest reaction we can have, from something like pricking your finger, or putting your hand on a burner and moving it before you feel you've even been burned, is .1 seconds. Or, 48 ms, using the math we did. So, that is 48 ms of lag from our own bodies, and that is a fight or flight response, which is far faster than any response that doesn't deal with life or death ( no matter how badly you want that upper level kill streak in call of duty). Most people looking for a good gaming tv realize you must sacrifice some graphical features for the best response time, but if you're playing a beautiful RPG do your self a favor and don't play in game mode, but DO turn on the extra pixel moving processes so as to stop Screen Burn. (also obvious). Since a good screen lag time is 16 ms, or 1 frame, and the fastest you can possibly respond, if you're a world class athlete with higher-than-average fast twitch fibers, is 48ms (3 frames). Also, really nice TVs aren't built for gaming, they're built for movies made with 4k screens. That being said, if you really need that low input lag, you're almost going to have to go with a monitor, or a $5000 alienware monitor, if you want that 50 inches.

Moral of the story, you'd be more likely to get better at a competitive multiplayer game doing a reaction tests to warm up your hands and brain; there are plenty of other unseen factors that go into screen lag as well. Namely, your internet connection, and gaming servers. You could say, "... well, information can be sent over servers in less than a second..", and you'd be right, but you have to remember that with TVs with 16 ms v. 32 ms lag times, that's only 1/30 of a what you see in 1 second as well.

For the value, the ST50 is your best bet, especially when it goes down another hundred dollars in the next couple weeks/months. But, if you're going to use it for more than trying to keep a beat in a video game, and actually want to use your $1200 tv for the reason it's $1200, I'd suggest the more expensive panosonic GT50 which has 45ms lag without game mode on, and something under 30 with it on, for a modest $1200. You can get it for less in a couple months though. Also, in a couple months, there'll probably be a solidified lag test, that most folks will start to use, which'll circumvent producers lying like they used to with dynamic contrast ratios..like that number means anything anyway..but I could say the same about arguing over anything less than 50ms lag, when the average person buying these tvs are overweight, drunk, and high middle-aged men who work 50 hours a week ( there input lag is far worse than the TVs).

I know you're just trying to help, but it seems like you're piecing together different bits of information without understanding what they mean.

You're calculating this backwards using incorrect information. 1ms (millisecond) is 1/1000 of a second. No matter the context, by definition 1 second will ALWAYS be equal to 1000ms.

And this "16 ms is one frame" is something that gets thrown around a lot, but you need to know that it's calculated assuming 60 frames-per-second. 1000ms / 60fps = 16.67ms per frame. If you calculate the duration of a frame for a 30fps game, it's 1000ms / 30fps = 33.33ms/frame.

And once you realize that one frame in most console games lasts 33.33ms, an input lag of even 50ms starts to not sound too bad. It really reinforces the idea that concerns about 30ms+ input lag are mainly for the 60fps twitch fighting game crowd.

Good call! Yes, games on the NES and SNES generally run at 60fps, as do most console music games.

Man I think i've repeated this at least 1 trillion times.
Somebody needs to dedicate a specific thread and have the 1ms capable sets at the top.
As far as Panasonic goes, they are the 2011 'S30' and 'St30' 1080p plasma's. They only do 1 frame/16ms through component
cables, once you have Color gamut set to HD ('SD' produces more lag for some odd ball reason, just like on the X5. SD is only optional for 480i/480p gaming content such as the Wii)
,turn off the color management and both Noise reductions.

The 2012 sets are incredibly dissapointing! I own the X5 and have played with the UT50, and they're both pushing 3 frames.
43-47ms is correct based on testing. The S30/ST30 also scored 16ms-32ms. the 32ms is via HDMI sadly...So if you want that 1 frame
you're limmited to component(480p & 720p) 1080'i' may yield more lag, but i'm not too sure.

Still, knowing that i'm getting 1 frame of lag, annoys me. It feels great and everything, but a lag free CRT still has the upper hand, especially
with motion controls where you need every precious MS you can get! XP So my advice, hunt down a S30 or ST30 and SKIP the 2012 panny's....
Who knows, maybe this years 2013 panasonic plasmas may be lower in lag, but i highly doubt it. The future is looking lousy for gamers, with 1 frame
sets being a complete rarity. I still miss the 'perfect' motion handeling + ZERO artifacts, ZERO LAG, and no auto dimming from my CRT....
But i'd be annoyed if i were missing out on the Wii' U's 720p and true widescreen, PLUS playing it on the big screen, in my case 60"s XP

So yup, the S30 doesn't have an anti glare picture so you'll get better brightness, color and a crisper picture.
Where as the ST30 has more picture controls, less glare and 3D. I ended up gettig a 60" S30 for $850 on craigs list last Novemeber and boy am i glad that
i did! The X5 and UT50 have NOTHING on this set in terms of input lag performance! Complete Night and day difference. Don't believe the kiddies
claiming that their NA U50, UT50 and ST50's are doing 1 frame because it's a load of sh**. they're around 3! PASS


I guess you could say i've been a bit of a guinea pig these last couple of years with HDTV testing. lol
I know what zero lag feels like(on my two SDTV CRTs), i know what 1 frame feels like(owned the highly praised LG LD450 & LK450 LCD's which both did 1 frame
via component cables) i know what 2 frames feels like(which i personally wont settle for. My S30 does 2 frames via HDMI) and i know what the dreadfull 3
frames feels like(X5 and UT50) and going beyond that? Welcome to the world of LG plasma's! LOL I've experienced the nastyness that they provide and it
aint pretty!

S30 and ST30 are a gamers wet dream, the wholy grail plasmas for gaming. And that is all!
Edited by WaveBoy - 2/17/13 at 11:59pm

Typo! XP. I ment 1 frame/'16'ms.
I've heard that when plunking these sammy's in PC mode it locks out quite a bit of picture controls and that's basically the deal breaker right there for me. XP
And sorry, another typo which i edited. I ment the Wii 'U'... it's capable of 720p AND 1080p. Component is limmited to 1080i at the most, but i think there might be additional lag due to the TV having to deinterlace the picture. I won't be bothering
with HDMI on my set since it bumps it up another frame! bummer! As far as the Wii U goes, it's 720p via component cables for me. Too bad, because i would of loved to have Dolby Digital or DTS HD Master(if it's
supported) sound quality via HDMI, but the Wii U won't let you use both cables for different things. double bummer.lol

Calling a TV with 30 ms of input lag way too high is seriously a bad joke.

Unless you're only concerned with LAN play, I would hope you have some amazing internet. Even then, you still are dependent on your connection to the server, etc. I'm also genuinely confused by how people perceive input lag. Thinking you could tell the difference between 16ms and 30ms is borderline ridiculous. Most people are under the impression that 50ms of lag is unplayable, that's simply not even close to being true. This article from AnandTech shows that even with the fastest equipment and a monitor with 16ms input lag, the total input lag combining all processes was still 32ms. This is before taking into account the input lag resulting from the gaming medium. They cite 100ms as the threshold for when input lag can become uncomfortable. This can vary slightly from person to person, but what it's saying is that anything under 100ms should not be discernible. A TV with 16ms or 32ms of input lag should only matter if it would cause your total input lag to be above the threshold. This article is about PC gaming, consoles, while less powerful, are not hindered as much by additional processes.

You must not be used to getting a lag free experience on a CRT then or you're just not as sensative to it as i am. I can't STAND 32ms which is what i get via HDMI on my S30 be it traditional or motion controls. It's not bad
by any means and games are still playable, but they're basically botched. I was actually just testing my CRT out vs my S30 with a few traditional and motion control based games and i can STILL notice a difference with 1 frame/16ms vs 0ms. It's a bit more noticable with motion controls since you're dealing with 1:1 movements and it irks me knowing that i'm giving up gameplay performance. 1 frame is still phenomenal, but the difference is there, and on my CRT Metroid Prime 3 for ex controls like a dream. I wonder if there will ever be some sort of device down the line that will rid HDTV's of their lag
or if Super OLED's will fix the issue al together. Yet I've been hearing HDTV's will always have at least 1 frame of lag, so i guess i better just get used to it. sigh* By the way I rarely do online and i don't play PC games. For the most part, I'm a retro gamer. I've got an extra CRT SDTV on the side soley for retro gaming, but i use my 60" plasma for my Wii, PS3 & Wii U.

Sorry, I'm just not buying it. You're brain might trick you into thinking 16ms is slower, but you should absolutely not be able to feel the difference. Sure you will see it if you compare them side by side and slow them way down, but that's a different story. As for not being able to stand 32ms, I just can't really comprehend that. Unless you have incredible reaction times, it just doesn't seem plausible. That's basically saying that you can "FEEL" motion at the depths of 1/30th of a second. The average human reaction time can range from 150-300ms, with an average of around 220ms, that's the equivalent of 6.88 frames at 30FPS. Sure, some people can be more sensitive to it, but feeling lag at 32-40ms offline is seriously a stretch. My PC monitor is 1-frame, 18ms of lag counting LCD response time. Compared to my PC monitor, in Black OPS 2 I don't see or feel any input lag on my GT50 in Custom mode. Controls felt smooth and responsive, I never once felt it wasn't matching up perfectly. If it's relevant, my reaction time is around 200ms on avg. This was a custom game, not online. Input lag in Custom mode is probably around 45-50ms. This doesn't apply to you, but I think people would enjoy games a lot more if they stopped worrying about input lag, and focused on improving their actual skill level.

No....really, there IS a difference. I don't need somebody online telling me that there isn't when i can
feel the bloody difference for myself.You're wrong buddy. Hell, this is the very reason why i keep going back to my CRT to game on because it's lightening quick thanks to zero input lag. But I'm going to accept the 1 frame delay because it's not going to get any better, at least anytime soon.
Also, I was trying to trick myself into thinking there 'wasn't a difference, but sad to say there is with 1 frame, it was much more obvious with motion controls. It's not an 'omg' night and day difference, but it's there. Less obvious with traditional controls to the point of being very small. Most gamers would be absolutely fine and extatic getting only 16ms, but i'm extremely anal and picky. I want my character to
jump & move on the DIME.

Once you start dipping into micro seconds then that's a different story, but i can feel the 1 frame difference, just as i did on my previous LD450. 2's 'easily' noticable when you're doing side by side comparisons, while 3 is just uneccaptable imo. It's why i gave up on my Panasonic X5. anyways, I'm sure there are gamers out there that can get by with 2 frames, but not me man. Timing is everything, and it hinders the intuitiveness and fun factor for many types of games, especially motion control based. I've done tons of testing, and i know what i'm talking about. I should just be grateful I've got an S30, because no other panny can top it in terms of lag performance.


Zero lag vs 1 frame is still 'slightly' more responsive in terms of traditional controls. But as i mentioned before when you're messing with the wii remote for exampele, you're dealing with realistic 1:1 movements depending on the title, like Skyward sword or metroid prime 3 for example. Today for kicks, i was toying around with prime 3 for kicks, First on my Plasma(with 1 frame) for about 15 minutes, and then fired it up on my CRT, and as soon as it started The controls felt even more responsive and on the dime. This was obvious the moment i was moving the curser around on the
Wii's main menu haha. The difference is there, believe it or not. Doesn't matter to me if you do because i can feel it formyself. 1st world problems
people! lol But yup, i'm done. I've honestly got nothing to add here. Just letting people know that the S30 and ST30 are the best panny's
you can get to game on if you're interested.
Edited by WaveBoy - 2/18/13 at 6:31am

Fair enough, all that still seems completely ridiculous to me though.

Also, I'm pretty sure the ST50 is 1-frame, not sure why the GT50 is 30ms+ in comparison.
Edited by JSpectre88 - 2/18/13 at 9:36am

Oops

Like I said on another thread, Panasonics plasma monitors are fastest plasma you can buy

I play twitch shooters with a mouse on mine and that's as good as it gets for big screen gaming, way back I played competitive cs on crts and could easily feel the difference between 100/120hz where others were not sensitive to 60/120hz so I know where you are coming from

Has no one split the output to a CRT and this TV yet? I would assume that the ST50 is at least 16ms slower than CRTs - so a total of 30 something ms from input to display. I should really find a old CRT and a cheap splitter from monoprice or something

Theres this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBwn-0CTQ-8 that kind of shows what it looks like between ST50/Samsung E6500 series/CRT

I believe a lot of the numbers being quoted here are inaccurate.

Ever since that new lag testing device appeared, it's been returning very different numbers than the ones people were getting with the (potentially very flawed) old testing methods. From what I've read:
-Every 2012 Panasonic measures about 48ms in Game mode, even the ST50.
-Every 2012 Samsung measures about 38ms in Game mode or PC (even the E6500; I don't believe that 16ms in PC mode was ever confirmed using a proper lag testing device).
-As far as I've seen, the 2011 plasmas haven't been tested with the device by anyone who's published the results. Am I wrong, has anyone done this? I did find reviews that claimed 16ms results on the ST30 but they're all fairly old and don't describe the testing methods. I also got the impression that these results were only with component input, which rules out this level of performance from a PC (not everyone who wants motion clarity is a console gamers).

If anyone has other numbers that come from legit tests I'd be glad to be proven wrong, but these are the numbers I've seen from everyone who's used the lag testing gadget.
Edited by headlesschickens - 2/19/13 at 4:04pm

That's the first I'm hearing of this, but it seems to check out. I wonder why the results would have been so far off though, it's not like we haven't been able to accurately measure input lag before. I'm at least getting a good laugh at some of the people who have been playing with 50ms of lag while swearing it would be "unplayable" with that much lag. That's not anyone from this thread though, the people here are much worse.

Lets forget these silly numbers for a second.
Based on my experience with the 2012 X5 and UT50 they are lagging quite worse than the S30 & my previous
LD450. Still playable, but the performance is 'heavier' and nowhere near as intuitive, and this breaks the fun
factor for 'me' by a land slide.I couldn't adjust whatsoever....I mean I've been gaming since the 80's, and have been using CRT's for years.
We never had to put up withany of this crap...Games performed as they were intended to, no delay or hitch in
sight.

It's a letdown having to make a sacrifice in the most important thing here(button response) to get a few
extra bells and whistiles, while even having to put up with other annoyances such as Auto Dimming and inferior motion handeling + Artifacts.lol
I hate having to gain something by losing a few other things that were perfected years long before. Black levels
on the S30 are great, but the UT50's are perfect in my eyes.

But anyways, I'm just saying the UT50 and X5 peform a lot worse than the S30. Don't believe the 1 frame rubbish,
unless it's a UK model haha. XP BTW, apperantly there's a new input lag device which you stick on your TV
and it properly measures the exact delay. Cost about $70 and it's from the UK, something to possibly look
into if you're tired of all of these bogus test results online.


But yeah... If by some miracle these 2013 panasonic plasma's(primaraly the S60) can bust out 1 frame via component cables
i'll sell my 60" S30 in a heart beat and go for the 55". I wouldn't mind having the wider color gamut, brighter image
and deeper blacks!


Why can't somebody invent a device that can rid ANY HDTV of input Lag?
Edited by WaveBoy - 2/19/13 at 4:41pm

WaveBoy try this out. I'm curious if you have superhuman reactions.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/
Edited by JSpectre88 - 2/19/13 at 5:12pm

I have to cosign Waveboy. I play competitive Street Fighter, when you go from a laggy home setup to a tournament using a sub 1 frame lag monitor, the difference is noticeable. Street Fighter 4 has link combos that are 1 frame apart. Your muscle memory has to be otherworldly to compensate in any small amount of time, which put you out of the tournament. Niche, sure, but relevant.

True, but 1 frame links are kind of an extreme example. Of course the difference is noticeable, but your not noticing input lag, your noticing that your timing is off when it it has to be precise to a single frame. Your going to need to be quicker than what you would be used to in order to hit 1-frame links when there is less input lag. I don't find this to be the same thing as feeling noticeable delay in your inputs when regarding different levels of input lag.

Hello all. I'm an old gamer from the 80's as well so I'm in good company! I miss crt as well but for different reaons. I'm totally sensitive to rainbows and flicker and motion blur or ghosting or whatever it is. Overall they are minor annoyances but the point is that I can see them. My teen nephews both think I'm crazy and tell me its all in my head as they routinely get perfect scores on one of the prettiest, lag infested sharp lcd ever lol. But I get it. They never grew up with a crt for 30 yrs so how could they develop a sensitivity to deviations from it. For me though the artifacting I see on lcds is absolutely unacceptable for me. I must be numb to input lag though as I happily game on an lg plasma...?.... Anyway to make a long story longer I just kept what I could live with and I'm holding my breath for the 50in hdcrt capable of 1080p at multple refresh rates haha. Oh yeah nobody can invalidate your experience....facts and logic be dammed

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

I don't know if I'm supposed to double post but you should check out blurblaster or sump like that. He has a modded lcd that gets like 480fps with zero input lag....?....

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

I didn't say anything about reaction times and feeling input lag, nor did I say anything about refresh rates. You can play SF on any TV, it only has to be 1 frame if you play professionally. I can't comment on retro platformers, but rhythm games have lag settings so that you can make your inputs match perfectly, regardless of lag. I also highly question that list on Shoryuken.

The Costco (and Sams?) 50" U54 is/was one the fastest large screen PDP's you can buy new today (not sure if it's still available). It does NOT have a Game Mode (and it doesn't need one), which suggest it has fundamental differences from similar models like the U50 and the higher end models (e.g. UT50, ST50, GT50, ect...). Curiously, I believe the 60" U54 did have a Game Mode, which leads me to believe it's possibly the same as the slower ST50, GT50's, ect... The 50" U54 absolute lag is probably ~32ms (or lower) in Cinema mode. The ST50, GT50, and VT50 probably have ~40ms of absolute lag in Game Mode (which looks awful as it has a lot of image processing turned on with no user toggles). Cinema and Custom Modes are likely around 60ms (or higher) on the higher end XX50's.