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Cult - New on CW - Page 3

post #61 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

My semi-frequent rant is... Don't buy a show that you don't intend to make all the season's episodes that you bought... and don't buy a show that you will pull from airing before completing it..
Well, that's difficult when the guy who makes the decision to buy the show is surrounded by "yes men" who simply agree with everything the boss says.
God forbid one of them says "um... wait a second- this show sucks- don't buy it", so we constantly get crap shows that bomb after two episodes air and get pulled quickly after that.
post #62 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

Well, that's difficult when the guy who makes the decision to buy the show is surrounded by "yes men" who simply agree with everything the boss says.
God forbid one of them says "um... wait a second- this show sucks- don't buy it", so we constantly get crap shows that bomb after two episodes air and get pulled quickly after that.

My first impulse is to say, nobody says that about a show that's actually green-lit. There are a million pilots that don't make it to air for which that would probably be an accurate description. But I'm pretty sure that no network executive thinks a show that they've approved for development and airing actually "sucks". That would be professional suicide, no?

But then, to play devil's advocate, I look at Saturday Night Live - as bulletproof a show as there is, going on 40 years now. And some of those sketches are so bad, so patently awful and painfully un-funny, that I think... how can somebody - anybody - think this crap is even remotely humorous? Yet, somebody (*cough* Loren Michaels *cough*) must think it is because pure crap makes it on the air, week after week, year after year. Fortunately, the cast is usually so immensely talented they can almost turn vinegar into wine at times.

So, in the final analysis, you might be right. tongue.gif
post #63 of 99
SNL is bulletproof primarily because long long ago (in this very galaxy, though) nobody wanted to program for the late night Saturday timeslot... SNL took that on and built an audience... IF anyone really tried to put quality programming in that timeslot, we might see SNL fade or be forced to improve... but basically they are living on reputation and the knowledge that they pretty much own the timeslot without much effort. I don't think any single show has so owned any one timeslot for so long. Even the Tonight Show in its heyday did face competition from time to time... but SNL really hasn't faced any real competition.

Meanwhile... Cult...

There are so many shows that never get bought... or get a pilot and the pilot isn't good enough for a series to get bought... so my thoughts have always been that IF you buy 13 or 20 or whatever episodes... then you made your decision. Unless the show sneaks something illegal or offensive in there that causes you legal problems, then you should air what you bought and learn from your lessons next time.

We get into a cycle of buying shows, dropping them mid-way, then jumping to the next soon-to-be-failed show... I like Cult, but arguably if could have been a better show IF before it was bought the network said "we like the idea but aren't sure if it will find an audience"... the show might have improved before it hit the air.

I still like, for that reason, the BBC way of doing series sometimes. Make 6 or 13 episodes and don't air any until all are made. Your story is set, and it has a beginning and an end... It runs, and if it is good you might get to make more... if it isn't, then you don't... but at least you got to tell a story and the fans that did find it got to see the whole story.
post #64 of 99
They're probably thinking they can license off the un-aired episodes (along with the aired of course) to the Netflix bargain bin. I don't think this has happened yet but it might be a plan.
post #65 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

They're probably thinking they can license off the un-aired episodes (along with the aired of course) to the Netflix bargain bin. I don't think this has happened yet but it might be a plan.
Not likely.

When a show is tanking, they replace it with anything that will score higher merely for the ad dollars. The goal is only to stop the bleeding when a show is pulled this quickly. I'd be surprised if anyone wants to buy Cult for any reason at this point.

It would be different if it were further along and there was a whole complete season, like, say, Pushing Daisies, where an ending had been created and there were only a few episodes left that didn't air. The same goes for Firefly.

Those shows were far enough into the season for production to be completed on it, despite a couple episodes not making air.

Last Resort would be an example of them lasting long enough to not only complete the season, but re-jigger the last episode to conclude the series.
post #66 of 99
As someone pointed out in the Zero Hour thread (I think), sometimes the financial agreements depend on the number of episodes aired, not the number of episodes produced, so the network can save money by refusing to air completed episodes.
post #67 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

As someone pointed out in the Zero Hour thread (I think), sometimes the financial agreements depend on the number of episodes aired, not the number of episodes produced, so the network can save money by refusing to air completed episodes.

I can't believe that is true, because the networks still hold rights to shows that they never air. IF they truly don't pay for unaired episodes, then the producers should be free to do with them whatever they want, including giving them away for free to fans OR selling themselves... and yet we never see this happen. I have to think any contract that says "make us 13 episodes" includes financial obligations for the network to pay for those episodes whether they choose to air them or not. Otherwise, that's a pretty dangerously one-sides contract for a production company to sign.
post #68 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

I can't believe that is true, because the networks still hold rights to shows that they never air. IF they truly don't pay for unaired episodes, then the producers should be free to do with them whatever they want, including giving them away for free to fans OR selling themselves... and yet we never see this happen. I have to think any contract that says "make us 13 episodes" includes financial obligations for the network to pay for those episodes whether they choose to air them or not. Otherwise, that's a pretty dangerously one-sides contract for a production company to sign.
Not quite.

Once the show is cancelled (assuming they didn't sign some sort of long term agreement), the producers are free to show their show around anywhere they please. The only shows networks hold the rights to are the ones they create themselves.

That's why productions have investors and completion insurance instead of producers using their own money.
post #69 of 99
That begs the question, then... why don't we see unaired episodes sooner rather than later?

IF the production company owns the unaired shows and can do whatever they want... why wouldn't they try to sell them? Like right now, people who are fans of Cult might pay to see them on iTunes or Netflix or something... but it doesn't happen unless and until a complete set of the whole series comes out on home video.
post #70 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post


IF the production company owns the unaired shows and can do whatever they want... why wouldn't they try to sell them? Like right now, people who are fans of Cult might pay to see them on iTunes or Netflix or something... but it doesn't happen unless and until a complete set of the whole series comes out on home video.

At times, it just makes no sense at all. One of the funniest TV shows I've ever seen was 'The Chris Isaak Show' on Showtime a few years ago. It was one of their first HD produced and broadcast series. And it completed 3 seasons on air. Yet they've never released a DVD/BD set, even though they have all the episodes in the can, already mastered in HD, just sitting there in their vault. There's no way they couldn't make money if they produced and sold a boxset. I saw Chris in concert a few months ago and asked him about it backstage. He said he's tried for years, but the Network just won't budge. He told me I'd have to "pirate" them. tongue.gif
post #71 of 99
I'm still waiting for Ringer to come out on dvd/blu. Bottom line for me: I've only watched 3 shows on CW and all 3 got cancelled. One made it 3 years, granted,, but still...
post #72 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

That begs the question, then... why don't we see unaired episodes sooner rather than later?

IF the production company owns the unaired shows and can do whatever they want... why wouldn't they try to sell them? Like right now, people who are fans of Cult might pay to see them on iTunes or Netflix or something... but it doesn't happen unless and until a complete set of the whole series comes out on home video.
The problem is, what you want is to view them, not buy them. That means the real problem is there's no money in showing them somewhere. The few viewers that care aren't going to pay the costs at a couple bucks and episode. Putting out a DVD or BD set of an incomplete season of a show is unlikely to sell, either.

In other words, it's cheaper just to write the whole thing off and move on.
post #73 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

The problem is, what you want is to view them, not buy them. That means the real problem is there's no money in showing them somewhere. The few viewers that care aren't going to pay the costs at a couple bucks and episode. Putting out a DVD or BD set of an incomplete season of a show is unlikely to sell, either.

In other words, it's cheaper just to write the whole thing off and move on.

But times have changed. Streaming wasn't even a consideration until recently. They might well make enough nowadays to justify putting episodes on Netflix. Supposedly the Showcase series "Continuum" which was a summer hit last year in Canada and Syfy just ran will be available on Netflix WI this week or next. People don't want to "buy" a series they'll only watch once and $25 for a season is a bit much especially when you know that the cable company paid about $1 for one month of you watching a network.

I think the real problem is just bad executives running production companies. There was a Canadian comedy series which ran on IFC several years ago called "The Business" which was about a small independent film studio. I thought they really nailed how goofy the industry is.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0825695/
post #74 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

But times have changed. Streaming wasn't even a consideration until recently. They might well make enough nowadays to justify putting episodes on Netflix. Supposedly the Showcase series "Continuum" which was a summer hit last year in Canada and Syfy just ran will be available on Netflix WI this week or next. People don't want to "buy" a series they'll only watch once and $25 for a season is a bit much especially when you know that the cable company paid about $1 for one month of you watching a network.

I think the real problem is just bad executives running production companies. There was a Canadian comedy series which ran on IFC several years ago called "The Business" which was about a small independent film studio. I thought they really nailed how goofy the industry is.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0825695/
Except Netflix doesn't pay the bills for an unaired series from someone other than Netflix. They simply won't pay enough for it. Netflix can user subscriptions to pay for shows like House of Cards. For everyone else that lets them show their content, it has to be paid for by broadcasting it with revenue from commercials first.

What Netflix pays for the show is merely additional revenue, not primary revenue.
post #75 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

The problem is, what you want is to view them, not buy them. That means the real problem is there's no money in showing them somewhere. The few viewers that care aren't going to pay the costs at a couple bucks and episode. Putting out a DVD or BD set of an incomplete season of a show is unlikely to sell, either.

In other words, it's cheaper just to write the whole thing off and move on.

You're not wrong about most people... but that's not exactly what I was saying.

Until the plug was pulled, new episodes were showing up on iTunes to buy for $2.99 each in HD. Also, iTunes sold a complete season of the Cult for $32.99 in advance... so as of right now, that complete season is suddenly only 7 episodes instead of 13... Did the network sell those through iTunes or did the production company? IF the network did, then that means they sold shows that they did not yet pay for, right? IF the production company sold them, then they owe customers those episodes.

Also... IF the production company owns these, and not CW... then why wouldn't the production company keep offering episodes on iTunes for sale? They earn no money sitting on them... but they might sell some right now while the iron is hot on iTunes.

Obviously you're right that some don't want to pay... but what about people who already paid OR who would be willing to pay?
post #76 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

You're not wrong about most people... but that's not exactly what I was saying.

Until the plug was pulled, new episodes were showing up on iTunes to buy for $2.99 each in HD. Also, iTunes sold a complete season of the Cult for $32.99 in advance... so as of right now, that complete season is suddenly only 7 episodes instead of 13... Did the network sell those through iTunes or did the production company? IF the network did, then that means they sold shows that they did not yet pay for, right? IF the production company sold them, then they owe customers those episodes.

Also... IF the production company owns these, and not CW... then why wouldn't the production company keep offering episodes on iTunes for sale? They earn no money sitting on them... but they might sell some right now while the iron is hot on iTunes.

Obviously you're right that some don't want to pay... but what about people who already paid OR who would be willing to pay?
Because $2.99 an episode won't pay the expenses for them, especially since it's likely there are some that were shot, but not completed and others that never were started. That's what broadcasting them is supposed to do.

Those involved with the show were likely immediately released to avoid paying them any more than they had to, so anything incomplete is likely to stay that way. I-Tunes money alone isn't enough to pay those expenses.

My guess, anyone who bought the whole season will likely see some sort of partial refund for what they won't actually get.

This is actually the major issue with the idea that streaming services are the future of TV. The problem is, unless that stuff gets far more expensive for the consumer, the money the networks and production companies get is pocket change compared to that received from advertising and carriage fees for the stations.
post #77 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Because $2.99 an episode won't pay the expenses for them, especially since it's likely there are some that were shot, but not completed and others that never were started. That's what broadcasting them is supposed to do.

Those involved with the show were likely immediately released to avoid paying them any more than they had to, so anything incomplete is likely to stay that way. I-Tunes money alone isn't enough to pay those expenses.

Still missing my point. IF they don't sell those episodes, then they make ZERO money if the network doesn't pay for unaired episodes.

Some money > No money

That's a pretty horrible contract IF the network doesn't pay for unaired episodes AND the production company doesn't do anything else with them either. That's a lot of wasted money.

Also, those episodes have to be mostly finished by now. There were only 6 left... one of which was to air this past Friday before it got pulled... so IF there is any unfinished work at this point surely it would only be for 1 or 2 episodes of those 6 left-to-be-aired... I wouldn't be surprised if they were all completed though.

In any event... the point is... they worked and spent money... IF the network didn't pay for them, they aren't smart to just sit on all of that without trying to sell them. Yeah, $2.99 per episode might not make them lots of money... but it makes them more than zero per episode does.
post #78 of 99
Cult Cancelled. Oh well.
Matt Davis is coming back to The Vampire Diaries.

He said on twitter
"Cult is cancelled because I'm sired to Julie Plec"

That at least is good news.
post #79 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

Still missing my point. IF they don't sell those episodes, then they make ZERO money if the network doesn't pay for unaired episodes.

Some money > No money

That's a pretty horrible contract IF the network doesn't pay for unaired episodes AND the production company doesn't do anything else with them either. That's a lot of wasted money.

Also, those episodes have to be mostly finished by now. There were only 6 left... one of which was to air this past Friday before it got pulled... so IF there is any unfinished work at this point surely it would only be for 1 or 2 episodes of those 6 left-to-be-aired... I wouldn't be surprised if they were all completed though.

In any event... the point is... they worked and spent money... IF the network didn't pay for them, they aren't smart to just sit on all of that without trying to sell them. Yeah, $2.99 per episode might not make them lots of money... but it makes them more than zero per episode does.
Actaully, you're missing the reality of the situation.

It costs money to prepare those episodes for streaming. It costs money to make the deal. It costs money to pay the rights for any music in the show. If even the littlest bit of post production needs to be done on even one episode, that costs money. If there are any incomplete FX (like putting the show within a show in on set TV monitors, which is done in post these days).

Just in salaries alone, that could generate more costs than they'll get from the handful of people that will pay for the episodes.

They're choosing to cut and run and not spend any more on the show than they already did rather than risk spending more that they might not get back.

Don't forget, the show got less than a million viewers for the latest episode on TV. It's unlikely even half that number were streaming the show before it got cancelled. Once a show is cancelled, that drops the number even further. They'd be lucky to generate $250K an episode in revenue - and only a portion goes back to the show after Apple takes its cut.
post #80 of 99
That being the case, then I'm back to the initial premise... that's a horrible contract to sign.... one that requires you to work and make episodes for a network that may or may not air them and will not pay for them if they decide not to air them.

How does any TV get produced at all with contracts that horrible?
post #81 of 99
Given the complaints over on the streaming video section they can't be paying very much to prepare an episode for streaming. Even Microsoft's free version of Expression will provide several streams at different bitrates and resolution on a desktop computer with a default setting. And most "pro" companies would probably write their won turnkey application around an SDK like that to automate and keep a good workflow going.
post #82 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDMe2 View Post

That being the case, then I'm back to the initial premise... that's a horrible contract to sign.... one that requires you to work and make episodes for a network that may or may not air them and will not pay for them if they decide not to air them.

How does any TV get produced at all with contracts that horrible?
You sign what you have to sign to get the chance to sell your show to someone who can expose it to the largest audience. Those agreements are very often sucker's agreements because content makers do essentially get suckered.

It's not until you get to be JJ Abrams or some other high powered producer that you can dictate better terms.

It's the same for writers and musicians, too.

The fact is, you give up control for the distribution arm that the media companies can offer.
post #83 of 99
Well, in another thread for another show that was abruptly cancelled with unaired episodes:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/apartment-23-episodes-online-441770
post #84 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinema13 View Post

Well, in another thread for another show that was abruptly cancelled with unaired episodes:
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/apartment-23-episodes-online-441770
Without looking it up- "The B in apt 23"'s numbers were probably much better than Cult's so they figure they may recoup some loss. Cult's ratings were so low there's probably almost no demand for the un-aired episodes, so making them available for online purchase could possibly cost more than what could be collected.
What was the old phrase? Good money into bad....
Edited by replayrob - 4/18/13 at 1:25pm
post #85 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

Without looking it up- "The B in atp 23"'s numbers were probably much better than Cult's so they figure they may recoup some loss. Cult's ratings were so low there's probably almost no demand for the un-aired episodes, so making them available for online purchase could possibly cost more than what could be collected.
What was the old phrase? Good money into bad....
Yeah, I have a hard time believing "Cult", at just over 900,000 viewers at the end was anywhere close to "Apartment 23". Just the fact that it was cancelled on the CW, which is always lower compared to other networks, says it had to be low compared to ABC, which let "23" roll for more episodes.

The CW has been know to let shows with less than 2 million viewers stick around. The other broadcast networks normally cancel with more than that.
post #86 of 99
Good news for those of us who were hoping...From Deadline.com:

"Cancelled midseaosn CW drama Cult will return on the air June 28, with the six unaired episodes slated to run in two-hour blocks from 8-10 PM over three consecutive Fridays. The show’s creator Rockne S. O’Bannon shared the news on Twitter last night. With Cult’s scheduling, all serialized freshman dramas which had been pulled this past season are getting a chance to air all produced episodes. ABC recently slated burn-off runs for 666 Park Ave. and Zero Hour."

Link
post #87 of 99
I was hoping the one new post in over a month would be for this news. Of course, we will probably be left hanging again after the final episode, but at least we'll have seen all there is to see.
post #88 of 99
Yeah... I'm sure it will not be a series-resolving final 6 episodes... but at least we get to see them.
post #89 of 99
Who's ready to don their tin foil hats once more for the Cult double feature tonight? biggrin.gif CW is burning the remaining episodes for the next few Fridays.
post #90 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Who's ready to don their tin foil hats once more for the Cult double feature tonight? biggrin.gif CW is burning the remaining episodes for the next few Fridays.
me...me!
Setup the TiVo on Monday.
Funny- I moved the Cult folder on the NAS server back from the "Non Current Shows" directory to the "Current Shows" directory. I think that's the first time I've ever done that to a canceled show- like it's back from the dead.

Let the silliness begin....
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