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Question about OLED: Scanning Backlight and Motion

post #1 of 21
1/4/13 at 7:01pm
Thread Starter 
Hi,

I was wondering if OLED tvs will use Scanning Backlight and Motion Enhancers, like Judder and Blur Reduction controls.

Thanks,

Morning5.
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post #2 of 21
1/4/13 at 7:18pm
What is a scanning backlight?
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post #3 of 21
1/4/13 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What is a scanning backlight?

It's a method of turning the backlight off, either by turning the backlight off between frames or turning sections of the backlight of between frames. Basically it's like a black frame or black portion insertion. It happens so fast, you can't see it, though the picture appears a little dimmer. From that dimmed picture, though, you'll get better motion due to the way a scanning backlight combats retina smearing.
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post #4 of 21
1/4/13 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

What is a scanning backlight?

It's a method of turning the backlight off, either by turning the backlight off between frames or turning sections of the backlight of between frames. Basically it's like a black frame or black portion insertion. It happens so fast, you can't see it, though the picture appears a little dimmer. From that dimmed picture, though, you'll get better motion due to the way a scanning backlight combats retina smearing.

Thanks, so is that a real backlight or and edge light with magic channeling? Who knows what the OLED will have since it really doesn't exist yet....
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post #5 of 21
1/4/13 at 7:44pm
It is just a method of turning off a regular backlight at certain intervals. Either the whole backlight or a part of it.. That's it. smile.gif
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post #6 of 21
1/4/13 at 8:01pm
Sorry, but a "regular" backlight? Meaning edge? Or an array of backlights? Big difference.
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post #7 of 21
1/4/13 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Sorry, but a "regular" backlight? Meaning edge? Or an array of backlights? Big difference.

It turns off whatever type of backlight you have. For example, I have the Sony 60EX645 which is Edge Lit, so when I enable the LED Motion Plus (which is the scanning backlight), it just cuts off the Edge LEDs repeatedly. If you've got a backlit LCD, then it'll turn those off.

It's just WHATEVER backlight your system uses to illuminate the screen, that's what it plays with.
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post #8 of 21
1/4/13 at 8:11pm
Wouldn't it just be easier to get a plasma with the better picture smile.gif ?
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post #9 of 21
1/4/13 at 9:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Wouldn't it just be easier to get a plasma with the better picture smile.gif ?
"Better" is a matter of opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure and all that.

I like both Plasma and LCD TVs. I'd have had a Plasma if not for ABL and IR. (I am constantly using my TV as an HTPC and to just do web browsing... Big screens of white backgrounds, like Internet Explorer and web pages, don't look so hot on a Plasma.)
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post #10 of 21
1/4/13 at 11:04pm
OLEDs don't have a backlight. They can use frame rate interpolation, just as many LCDs do. And theoretically, they could insert black frames, if you don't mind losing brightness.
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post #11 of 21
1/4/13 at 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Wouldn't it just be easier to get a plasma with the better picture smile.gif ?
"Better" is a matter of opinion. One man's trash is another man's treasure and all that.

I like both Plasma and LCD TVs. I'd have had a Plasma if not for ABL and IR. (I am constantly using my TV as an HTPC and to just do web browsing... Big screens of white backgrounds, like Internet Explorer and web pages, don't look so hot on a Plasma.)

What kind of person would want to see a large image of IE? Crazy. IE never sees my computer and will never see my panel. I use a laptop while I watch Letterman like right now. My panel is mostly for movies. No ABL or IR issues. Had an LCD, understand the difference in whites, but my old LCD in the bedroom has uneven backlighting (and more of a buzz than my plasma) and the big expensive LCD I had a year and a half ago was far worse with flashlighting/clouding issues, so traded it in for a plasma and couldn't be happier. Since absolute white is a fantasy in real life for the most part, could care less about that. We have a customer in the middle of the OLED tech thing, so hopefully their tech contribution makes these things happen sooner than later. smile.gif Wouldn't mind trying one once they get it down. Until then plasma spanks LCD IMHO. And I'd take both LCD and plasma over CRT due to size issues (and the rear projection crt I had before had serious IR issues). One man's treasure is another's trash for sure, but YMMV smile.gif
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post #12 of 21
1/5/13 at 7:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M 
And theoretically, they could insert black frames, if you don't mind losing brightness.
right. I do not get why folks like the look of black frame insertion.
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post #13 of 21
1/5/13 at 7:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

right. I do not get why folks like the look of black frame insertion.
I don't think it's so much the look, but the fact that it DOES increase motion resolution a bit without any sort of Soap Opera Effect.

I sometimes use the BFI when playing non-twitch video games like turn based RPGs. (Final Fantasy series excluding XII and XIV.)

There is a definite improvement in how clear the action looks. An easy way to also tell the difference is to play a fighting game like SFIV and just go to training mode. Walk back and forth with a character or do a front or back flip. Without Motion Interpolation or BFI, it's a bit blurry on LCDs due to their native motion resolution of about 350. Using BFI, you can make out the face and how clear the fighters look in motion easier. Motion Interpolation also helps out, but adds too much input lag.

This is why the people are getting so excited by those new 3D Lightboost 2 monitors. You can force the monitors to scan the backlight which increases motion resolution in even 2D games.. Supposedly even matching or beating CRT motion without adding any input lag. Thread about it in the FP tech section of this forum.
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post #14 of 21
1/5/13 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Until then plasma spanks LCD IMHO

Oh boy, do we really need this in a thread about OLED's?

Not everyone wants a heavier, hotter, brightness-challenged buzzing TV which has to be watched in a cave in exchange for a flash lighting, clouding, motion-challenged TV with unnatural rendition of faces. Some are looking forward to the next tech which might reduce the compromises one must make today in order to get a bigger screen.
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post #15 of 21
1/5/13 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 
I don't think it's so much the look, but the fact that it DOES increase motion resolution a bit without any sort of Soap Opera Effect.

I sometimes use the BFI when playing non-twitch video games like turn based RPGs. (Final Fantasy series excluding XII and XIV.)

There is a definite improvement in how clear the action looks. An easy way to also tell the difference is to play a fighting game like SFIV and just go to training mode. Walk back and forth with a character or do a front or back flip. Without Motion Interpolation or BFI, it's a bit blurry on LCDs due to their native motion resolution of about 350. Using BFI, you can make out the face and how clear the fighters look in motion easier. Motion Interpolation also helps out, but adds too much input lag.

This is why the people are getting so excited by those new 3D Lightboost 2 monitors. You can force the monitors to scan the backlight which increases motion resolution in even 2D games.. Supposedly even matching or beating CRT motion without adding any input lag. Thread about it in the FP tech section of this forum.
Let me put it this way: bfi ugly ups the picture ( what else do you expect when you put black frames inbetween real frames rolleyes.gif ), that is intolerable imo
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post #16 of 21
1/5/13 at 8:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Let me put it this way: bfi ugly ups the picture ( what else do you expect when you put black frames inbetween real frames rolleyes.gif ), that is intolerable imo
I honestly can't tell any difference minus a dimmer picture and occasional flicker.

Some people are more sensitive to things like this, though, so it's understandable.

Same thing goes for what I said to the guy's statement that Plasma is superior to LCD. One man's trash is another man's treasure. I like BFI/Scanning Backlight in certain situations. I don't use it most of the time, though. Prefer the Motionflow Standard/CineMotion Auto 2 settings on my TV when I want a deblurred/high motion resolution picture while NOT introducing a Soap Opera Effect. smile.gif
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post #17 of 21
1/5/13 at 8:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

OLEDs don't have a backlight. They can use frame rate interpolation, just as many LCDs do. And theoretically, they could insert black frames, if you don't mind losing brightness.

From what I have read OLED tvs don't suffer from motion lag or motion blur, so Scanning Backlight and Motion Controls may not be needed?
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post #18 of 21
1/5/13 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post

From what I have read OLED tvs don't suffer from motion lag or motion blur, so Scanning Backlight and Motion Controls may not be needed?

Unfortunately any non-flickering display, no matter how perfect, would have motion blur due to the eye tracking effect.

This is why it would be desirable to have very high frame rate video sources.
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post #19 of 21
1/5/13 at 1:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post

From what I have read OLED tvs don't suffer from motion lag or motion blur, so Scanning Backlight and Motion Controls may not be needed?

Sorry, since OLED tvs dont have backlight I should have used the words "Black Frame Insertion" instead of "Scanning Backlight".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke M View Post

Unfortunately any non-flickering display, no matter how perfect, would have motion blur due to the eye tracking effect.
This is why it would be desirable to have very high frame rate video sources.

Thanks Luke, interesting.

CRT dont suffer from motion lag or motion blur, so, can OLED tvs be able to achieve that performance?
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post #20 of 21
1/5/13 at 1:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Morning5 View Post

Sorry, since OLED tvs dont have backlight I should have used the words "Black Frame Insertion" instead of "Scanning Backlight".
Thanks Luke, interesting.
CRT dont suffer from motion lag or motion blur, so, can OLED tvs be able to achieve that performance?

You can still scan on the OLED. Just turn off and on the pixels really fast. Line by line.

And, also, CRT had something called phosphor decay. If you watch a video of a CRT shot from a high speed camera such as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PrGu2cI1oE

The effect is similar to a scanning backlight. It's constantly fading out and then quickly full color again. That's why motion is so clear on a CRT.
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post #21 of 21
1/5/13 at 6:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

You can still scan on the OLED. Just turn off and on the pixels really fast. Line by line.
And, also, CRT had something called phosphor decay. If you watch a video of a CRT shot from a high speed camera such as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PrGu2cI1oE
The effect is similar to a scanning backlight. It's constantly fading out and then quickly full color again. That's why motion is so clear on a CRT.

Thanks sodaboy.

“LG OLED TVs are scheduled for launch in the UK during Q1 2013”, since LG is releasing the world's first 55" OLED tv in a few months, I'm wondering what type of technology it will be using for Motion.
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