AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Digital Projectors - Under $3,000 USD MSRP › Comparison of 4 Projectors (Viewsonic Pro8200 vs. Benq w7000 vs. JVC RS-45 vs. Mits hc4000)
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Comparison of 4 Projectors (Viewsonic Pro8200 vs. Benq w7000 vs. JVC RS-45 vs. Mits hc4000) - Page 3

post #61 of 92
1/8/13 at 10:11am
Personally if I could find a typical sharp DLP that excels at 3D and has Epson black levels for sub $3,500 I'd be filling out an order form and not posting wink.gif From what I gathered from my research and for a first time pj purchaser, it's pretty much a pick of the poison with the Sony being the best 2d/3d compromise (not a bad compromise really) BenQ for 3D and JVC for 2D although there seems a lot of posts with quality issues with the BenQ.... is that the general consensus? They don't have a long warranty period is comparison with the Mits, JVC, and Sony...
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post #62 of 92
1/8/13 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Matney View Post

Personally if I could find a typical sharp DLP that excels at 3D and has Epson black levels for sub $3,500 I'd be filling out an order form and not posting wink.gif From what I gathered from my research and for a first time pj purchaser, it's pretty much a pick of the poison with the Sony being the best 2d/3d compromise (not a bad compromise really) BenQ for 3D and JVC for 2D although there seems a lot of posts with quality issues with the BenQ.... is that the general consensus? They don't have a long warranty period is comparison with the Mits, JVC, and Sony...

I'm in the same boat as you regarding DLP and, while I can't speak directly to any of the current offerings, I've taken the same away from recent threads/reviews... that the HW50es is very near the entry JVCs in terms of black and very good with 3D movie content, and that the greatest 3D 'weakness' of the HW50es is not ghosting, but rather flicker with 3D video. If only Runco would add triple flash 3D to the LS-5 and cut the price in half wink.gif Maybe I should sell my car and replace it with a Civic and the Runco x200i wink.gif Seriously though, there will always be tradeoffs between different technologies and a better product will always be just around the corner for less money... at some point you just have to buy what best fits your current needs and not look back.
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post #63 of 92
1/8/13 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri View Post

I'm in the same boat as you regarding DLP and, while I can't speak directly to any of the current offerings, I've taken the same away from recent threads/reviews... that the HW50es is very near the entry JVCs in terms of black and very good with 3D movie content, and that the greatest 3D 'weakness' of the HW50es is not ghosting, but rather flicker with 3D video. If only Runco would add triple flash 3D to the LS-5 and cut the price in half wink.gif Maybe I should sell my car and replace it with a Civic and the Runco x200i wink.gif Seriously though, there will always be tradeoffs between different technologies and a better product will always be just around the corner for less money... at some point you just have to buy what best fits your current needs and not look back.

Couldn't agree more... I am very cautious though with this being my first time projector... it's all new water to me and I would want to make sure the function fits the form.... not to highjack the thread but would a relatively low ceiling (7'2") and a 92" screen with not ambient light limit the discussed projectors in the running?

BTW, @ 30 mpg I could save the money in gas alone by switching to the Civic and putting it towards a new Runco in a quarter's time... ahhh... responsibilities.... rolleyes.gif
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post #64 of 92
1/8/13 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Matney View Post

Couldn't agree more... I am very cautious though with this being my first time projector... it's all new water to me and I would want to make sure the function fits the form.... not to highjack the thread but would a relatively low ceiling (7'2") and a 92" screen with not ambient light limit the discussed projectors in the running?
BTW, @ 30 mpg I could save the money in gas alone by switching to the Civic and putting it towards a new Runco in a quarter's time... ahhh... responsibilities.... rolleyes.gif

The 7'2" ceiling shouldn't be much of a concern from a PJ placement perspective unless you have a second row of seating, then you are trading off moving the screen lower for DLP offset (if you go DLP with limited lens shift) and the (raised) 2nd row being able to see the bottom of the screen over the first row heads. Depending on mount location, your biggest issue might be really tall visitors knocking their heads on the PJ. The W7000 would be blinding on a 92" screen in a dark room though... would probably want an ND filter for 2D viewing.
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post #65 of 92
1/8/13 at 11:19am
Thanks for the info dougri.... i do plan on going with a DLP... i want the native crisp sharpness with the above average black details with iris, not the reverse (native blacks with software inflicting sharpness)... with 3D for when the misses has a hankering... I'm 6' and luckily I don't have many friends taller... but I may just put caution tape around it with a perimeter monitor to warn off anyone that comes close to it...
now its just a waiting game to see if the Mitsu receives good reviews for black levels and 3D stability... then it's pulling the trigger time... do people usually purchase through AVS? there's deals to be had all over the internet but when it comes to warranty claims I'm a bull in a China shop and do not want to even think about spending 2 weeks with a durp in a booth somewhere pleading my case... are there other respectable places? AVS treat their customers good?

thanks again.
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post #66 of 92
1/8/13 at 2:24pm
Thread Starter 
The Mits hc8000 (much like the hc4000) isn't as sharp as the Benq for HTPC text so I heard, just FYI.
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post #67 of 92
1/8/13 at 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The Mits hc8000 (much like the hc4000) isn't as sharp as the Benq for HTPC text so I heard, just FYI.
Have not heard this... did z10k conclude this? Reviews I've read (for both xv-z30000 and HC8000D) have been pretty positive regarding sharpness... or is it that it is just not quite as sharp as the W7000, but still very sharp? Sheesh! when is someone going to make the perfect $2k projector? tongue.gif
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post #68 of 92
1/8/13 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
From Z10's comments to me, it is fine from seating distance, but it lacks any advanced sharpening controls if compared to the Sony hw50 or RS48 or higher have.
So my guess is that in video the Sony hw50 or RS48 or higher will look sharper than the Mits hc8000 (cause sharpening filters generally greater than purely natural sharpness in most movies).

He also noted a slight focus uniformity issue, so I'm assuming the hc8000 has similar TEXT sharpness to the hc4000 (I rated it at 8.0 for text, and 8.5 for video), whereas JVC get 9/9 and Benq got 9.2/8.8.
Now some might like the Benq text even better than the JVC, but it does look more edgy and less natural (depends what the background color is to if JVC or Benq look better than one another on text).
Perhaps I should raise Benq back to 9.0 for text considering it's more a personal preference (ok doing that now).

That said, due to focus uniformity I expect the hc8000 to be a step below the JVC and the Benq for HTPC text.

DLP's no longer rule the earth in sharpness, for text sure the higher-end ones like a .95" Marantz, Planar, or a higher-end Runco will probably look a tad sharper than the Benq or JVC, but otherwise I think most other DLP's will at best look slightly worse or the same. The main issue with some sub-$3k DLP's is they have a focus uniformity issue towards the edges even though they focus perfectly at the most focused point, and neither the JVC or Benq have the issue.
Edited by coderguy - 1/8/13 at 4:14pm
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post #69 of 92
1/10/13 at 1:19pm
Got the Viewsonic pro8200 yesterday, and it was in fact brand spanking new in a unopen box.
still had tape and all.
set it up on the wall that is painted 2 tone. just wanted to make sure everything worked.
made sure there was no lines or weird noise going on. no shut offs or problems other people may have had.

Hooked it up hdmi from my sony vaio and the picture was fantastic.
with no screen and the all the lights on the picture was still watchable. very watchable. even on a goldish color painted wall
we watch half of avengers, and was blown away.

now I just need to build the screen.

This forum helped out. Glad I saved money. for 575 brand new was truly a steal. and I can honestly say it is worth the full price..
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post #70 of 92
1/11/13 at 8:10am
When you close the iris as close as possible on W7000, is black level and contrast improved?

I remember ND2 filter improved contrast and sharpness on W7000 dramatically as I remember.
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post #71 of 92
1/11/13 at 3:37pm
Thread Starter 
It doesn't increase contrast, but it does increase perceived contrast.
Neither an ND filter or the Benq's IRIS can increase contrast, some manual apertures do increase contrast, but those are on a different location to the lens, this is just a standard aperture for darkening.
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post #72 of 92
1/28/13 at 2:20pm
Thread Starter 
After more experimenting with the Benq's service menu and doing a more intense calibration after 200 hours, I have to say I am a bit more impressed with the Benq than at first.

1) The Benq now has the best color of any projector I've ever owned after doing a more thorough calibration with the IRIS clamped, even surpassing the Viewsonic's color.
2) The Benq's adjustments in the service menu allow you to make the blacks a little darker, but it's not simple. It also appears with some adjustments you can get the native on/off higher even before the IRIS. Although I need to do a few more tests. With some careful tweaking, I would say the Benq (w/ DI enabled) is now very much the equivalent to the hc4000 in dark scenes, and absolute near-black scenes it can even beat the Mits. It just took some tweaking of IRIS settings in the service menu as well as other calibration adjustments and what not.
Edited by coderguy - 1/28/13 at 2:29pm
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post #73 of 92
1/28/13 at 9:56pm
Can you measure and post native on/off now with the tweaks vs. your measurements before?
Edited by Elix - 1/28/13 at 10:04pm
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post #74 of 92
1/30/13 at 11:41am
This is interesting, I've seen similar Iris setiings in HD8300 system menu, I should try them.
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post #75 of 92
1/30/13 at 6:57pm
Reduced iris settings in HD8300 service menu, didn't like the effect. Blacks are improved, but bright colors now look muddy all the time, in both bright and dark scenes. Dark scenes also look worse than with just auto-iris because of lack of gamma-compensation. Restored original value, back to the brightest setting, iris max opened.
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post #76 of 92
1/31/13 at 7:44pm
Thinking about pulling the trigger on the w7000, but the comments about its black level has concerned me. I've talked to a couple online projector dealers,and they've been pointing me to go towards the Epson 5010 that is similar priced these days but I'm really curious about DLP. I'm not by any means a projector expert, but I want a projector that performs 3d very well, and the same time, have better blacks than my old sanyo plv-z4. Unfortunately, I don't have any dealers around to demo these projectors.
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post #77 of 92
1/31/13 at 8:03pm
Thread Starter 
The Epson will easily have the better blacks, the Benq is probably about the same black level as the Z4, though the Benq will beat these other projectors in every other category.
It's hard to say which one you'd like more (Epson vs. Benq), it's really impossible to say.

For my personal tastes, I prefer the Benq overall when weighing all the Pro's and Con's over the Epson, but for darker movies the Epson takes the cake for sure.
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post #78 of 92
2/3/13 at 8:08pm
coderguy, did you have the chance to measure W7000's native on/off before and after the tweaks with the iris?
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post #79 of 92
2/3/13 at 8:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

coderguy, did you have the chance to measure W7000's native on/off before and after the tweaks with the iris?
Check the w7000 thread... He posted results there... ~1700:1 peak with off colors, and about 1000:1 with reasonable colors. Certainly worth tweaking if it is doing double duty for 2d.

edit: check results here(http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381679/official-benq-w7000-owners-thread/2910#post_22903930)... best case with good colors ~1000:1
Edited by dougri - 2/3/13 at 10:42pm
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post #80 of 92
2/3/13 at 11:25pm
Thanks. Boy, am I glad I didn't jump on this projector when I wanted to. This projector will look good only for bright content and 3D.
Edited by Elix - 2/3/13 at 11:35pm
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post #81 of 92
2/4/13 at 3:33am
Thread Starter 
It looks great down to about evening time brightness, and decent in darker scenes that have a lot of light. Only in the really rough dark scenes (which still occur in many movies, say 10% of the time) will it really struggle. It actually isn't even that bad on starfields as long as there are enough stars on the screen, where it really struggles is like a pitch black scene showing just a moon and clouds, or a dark cave where there is no lights to add shadow detail.
The DI on the Benq definitely helps once you get it tweaked, and so does the manual IRIS mode if you need it.
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post #82 of 92
2/4/13 at 4:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

The DI on the Benq definitely helps once you get it tweaked, and so does the manual IRIS mode if you need it.
So you say the DI on W7000 can be tweaked? Here's the graph depicting change of brightness in a black-to-white transition:
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post #83 of 92
2/4/13 at 6:38am
Thread Starter 
What are you saying with that graph, are you asking a question or making a statement?
Sorry, don't mean to sound smart, I just don't understand what you are saying with your black to white transition.
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post #84 of 92
2/4/13 at 6:49am
Okay, I understand I wasn't clear, probably. My question is, does this graph correlate to what you see when switching from full screen black frames to white? And is there a difference in DI's timing before making any adjustments in the service menu and after?
Because the reviewer when measured this graph probably didn't enter service menu to do some tweaks. And you mentioned these tweaks affects how DI works.
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post #85 of 92
2/4/13 at 8:10am
Thread Starter 
Well it's tricky because our eyes do not see the linear effect of brightness or IRIS changes linearly at all. Then the second problem is, how sensitive are users to the IRIS moving, this will vary, some will like a bouncier IRIS than others simply because they find it an ok trade-off for the better blacks. All I can say is, this IRIS is not as good as the Panny/Epson IRIS's, but it is better than some of the other IRIS designs. The fact you can customize it really does mean you can make it nearly invisible for a small increase in black level compensation, or make it really aggressive, or even just change it depending on what you are watching.

Hard to give a hard-opinion on how much you'd dislike the black-levels. The IRIS does appear to act on a different CURVE depending on its range setup, but it's impossible to test that since the EYE does not see the curve linearly (so there will be sudden changes seen sometimes).

I'd also have to watch stuff for a good full week or two with the DI engaged, and right now I'm using FIXED Mode, because only way to engage DI is to move my projector to a less bright spot (retro-reflective screen) or add an ND filter, which I haven't done yet. Hence, Itested the DI for a few hours, and that's what I've found so far.
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post #86 of 92
2/4/13 at 6:24pm
Can I assume the RS1 is inferior to the RS45 in all these criteria you've scored above ? I have the RS1 and am curious where it would fall in this list of projectors. In other words, when I eventually go to replace my RS1, would the W7000 or even W1070 be a viable replacement ?

I find myself watching all my TV on my projector and 122" screen now vs. mostly movies when I bought the RS1. The RS1 is really only bright enough to suit me when the lamp is brand new, so the extra brightness of a W1070 seems appealing. I don't care for 3D at all, so that isn't a factor.
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post #87 of 92
2/4/13 at 7:24pm
I have owned both the RS45 and the W7000.

The added brightness and sharpness of the RS45 make it a worthwhile upgrade to the RS1. No question. The build quality of the W7000 leaves a lot be desired.
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post #88 of 92
2/5/13 at 5:38am
Thread Starter 
The JVC is the better projector over the Benq for most movies, but they both have trade-offs. I am able to forget about the lesser black levels of the Benq when watching movies most of the time (at least in half of movies). There will be some when you just crave those JVC blacks again of course. Build quality is of course higher on the JVC, but DLP is more reliable in the long-run on average for heavy hours (not saying Benq is more reliable than JVC in this case though, saying if equal build quality DLP is more reliable).
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post #89 of 92
2/8/13 at 3:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post

From Z10's comments to me, it is fine from seating distance, but it lacks any advanced sharpening controls if compared to the Sony hw50 or RS48 or higher have.
So my guess is that in video the Sony hw50 or RS48 or higher will look sharper than the Mits hc8000 (cause sharpening filters generally greater than purely natural sharpness in most movies).

He also noted a slight focus uniformity issue, so I'm assuming the hc8000 has similar TEXT sharpness to the hc4000 (I rated it at 8.0 for text, and 8.5 for video), whereas JVC get 9/9 and Benq got 9.2/8.8.
Now some might like the Benq text even better than the JVC, but it does look more edgy and less natural (depends what the background color is to if JVC or Benq look better than one another on text).
Perhaps I should raise Benq back to 9.0 for text considering it's more a personal preference (ok doing that now).

That said, due to focus uniformity I expect the hc8000 to be a step below the JVC and the Benq for HTPC text.

DLP's no longer rule the earth in sharpness, for text sure the higher-end ones like a .95" Marantz, Planar, or a higher-end Runco will probably look a tad sharper than the Benq or JVC, but otherwise I think most other DLP's will at best look slightly worse or the same. The main issue with some sub-$3k DLP's is they have a focus uniformity issue towards the edges even though they focus perfectly at the most focused point, and neither the JVC or Benq have the issue.

You reckon the HC8000 has the same lens as the HC4000?
The HC8000D is equipped with an extra-low dispersion (ED) lens system comprised of 13 lenses in 4 groups. Compared to commonly used glass lenses, this system keeps chromatic abberation to a minimum with improved image sharpness right to the edges of the screen
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post #90 of 92
2/8/13 at 4:18am
gbickle, you will be the first to counter/confirm Zombie's findings on HC8000's sharpness because he's the only one in the forums right now who saw and commented on it.
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