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Need New L/R - SEOS Kit or Yorkville U15P

post #1 of 17
1/5/13 at 10:08pm
Thread Starter 
I have a pair of Sho-10s and a Submersive that I am using in a 2.1 setup for exclusively HT use in a large family room (14' W x 24' L) that is open to the entire first floor.

The Sho-10s were my entry into HE and horn based speakers and I am pretty happy with the result I got, but decided to sell impulsively because ... well not sure why, probably just the itch the upgrade.

So now I don't have L/R's and need to decide what to replace them with and hoping to get some thoughts to make a fairly quick decision on whether to go the DIY route (this will be my first attempt).

The options I am thinking about are:

1) SEOS 12 Kit (most likely the Bagby Definimax design)
2) QSC KW122
3) Yorkville U15P

Ignoring price, what are peoples thoughts on those offerings (or any other options you think I should consider)?

Assuming I am willing to pay the cost for the U15P, is this a no brainer given its Unity design? Or does the QSC or SEOS 12/Bagby design have strengths that I should take into account (like better drivers, or crossover, or something else)?

My main concern with the SEOS is that the 90 degree horizontal dispersion may be a bit too wide for my room because the speakers will flank a fireplace and be recessed behind the fireplace, and, as a result may cause some reflections that could be avoided if I go with the QSC or Yorkville which have narrower horizontal dispersion.

Thanks!
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post #2 of 17
1/6/13 at 5:01am
Bump, I am curious to see what people think of the Yorkvilles. I read somewhere that only crossover mod is needed to bring them up to Danley standards. So with that being said, I have no idea what or how the crossover would need to be modified in order to make this thing sound better. Good luck with what ever you end up going with!
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post #3 of 17
1/6/13 at 7:24am
You may be able to rent the Yorkvilles. I know Midwest pro sound guys carry the brand though I am not sure about the unity line specifically. There are other yorkville dealers in Chicago area.
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post #4 of 17
1/6/13 at 7:28am
I recently moved from JTR Quintuple speakers to Yorkville U215's, so far i like the upgrade.
If i still have my JTR speakers around later on, i have a new processor coming, Marantz AV8801, and will definitely do some a/b testing again to see if the new processor changes the sound a bit.
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post #5 of 17
1/6/13 at 8:52am
I can't make a qualified opinion on Erich's SEOS or the QSC speakers as I haven't heard them, but can say a few words about the Yorkvilles as I own U15's. I've always been curious about Yorkville's take on Unity and had an opportunity to get a pair a few months ago. For me, they will be about the perfect HT speaker. Superb midrange for vocal intelligibility and great dynamics. Their 60 degree pattern is great for a long/narrow room (my room is 12' wide) and they load the room perfectly when pressed against the wall. There may be a few very minor 'warts' for home use, but these things do almost everything right with very little downside (except maybe size of course to some, but that's actually a good thing in a small room...it takes a good size waveguide/cabinet to get Controlled Directivity and big speakers in a small room are the way to go). I too have read they respond well to a few tweaks...I'll found out later.

I like them so much I went looking for a single for a center -- ended up buying 3 more as they were a package deal. Sometimes you have to buy a few more than you were originally looking for...ufokillerz knows how that works. wink.gif

Now with them all here, I find myself thinking I should just go ahead and run a pair as the primary row's surround speakers. eek.gif I am more than a little concerned about that though with the 12' wide room; perhaps a bit too close to the people seated on the sides. smile.gif

I wanted to support the SEOS project (and will when I get a few SEOS-12 for a non-HT project), but the overwhelming curiosity about the Unitys and the fact that they are a straight up steal when purchased used led me to try them. For the price you can get these things for, I couldn't justify building my own stuff. The price of the CD and woofer alone -- BMS 4550 and Eighteensound 15ND930 -- sell for more than I have into each cabinet ($440 apiece). Just simply a phenomenal deal for the money.

There are a few Aussies that own Yorkville Unity stuff (in addition to Nick's original Unity and even some home-brew Synergy as well) and have some opinions here: www.stereo.net.au/forums -- search for 'Yorkville'

Curious at to why you are looking at the powered versions of the Yorkville's and QSC's if you are also considering the SEOS?
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post #6 of 17
1/6/13 at 9:00am
If they are still available, there is what appears to be a great deal on a pair of U215's listed on the Dayton, Ohio Craigslist for $1200/pr -- http://dayton.craigslist.org/msg/3442543881.html -- somebody needs to snatch those up! I sure the heck would if I was anywhere close. He did originally list them on 11-3 it looks like, but updated the ad 12-18.
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post #7 of 17
1/6/13 at 9:36am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

I can't make a qualified opinion on Erich's SEOS or the QSC speakers as I haven't heard them, but can say a few words about the Yorkvilles as I own U15's. I've always been curious about Yorkville's take on Unity and had an opportunity to get a pair a few months ago. For me, they will be about the perfect HT speaker. Superb midrange for vocal intelligibility and great dynamics. Their 60 degree pattern is great for a long/narrow room (my room is 12' wide) and they load the room perfectly when pressed against the wall. There may be a few very minor 'warts' for home use, but these things do almost everything right with very little downside (except maybe size of course to some, but that's actually a good thing in a small room...it takes a good size waveguide/cabinet to get Controlled Directivity and big speakers in a small room are the way to go). I too have read they respond well to a few tweaks...I'll found out later.
I like them so much I went looking for a single for a center -- ended up buying 3 more as they were a package deal. Sometimes you have to buy a few more than you were originally looking for...ufokillerz knows how that works. wink.gif
Now with them all here, I find myself thinking I should just go ahead and run a pair as the primary row's surround speakers. eek.gif I am more than a little concerned about that though with the 12' wide room; perhaps a bit too close to the people seated on the sides. smile.gif
I wanted to support the SEOS project (and will when I get a few SEOS-12 for a non-HT project), but the overwhelming curiosity about the Unitys and the fact that they are a straight up steal when purchased used led me to try them. For the price you can get these things for, I couldn't justify building my own stuff. The price of the CD and woofer alone -- BMS 4550 and Eighteensound 15ND930 -- sell for more than I have into each cabinet ($440 apiece). Just simply a phenomenal deal for the money.
There are a few Aussies that own Yorkville Unity stuff (in addition to Nick's original Unity and even some home-brew Synergy as well) and have some opinions here: www.stereo.net.au/forums -- search for 'Yorkville'
Curious at to why you are looking at the powered versions of the Yorkville's and QSC's if you are also considering the SEOS?

I'll check out that link, thanks. They Unity's do seem like a fantastic deal, especially since it doesn't feel difficult at all to find them used. How is their appearance in your room?

I was thinking about going the powered route because I was planning on getting a pro amp to begin with to power the L/Rs anyways. I am currently powering them from my receiver and even though the Sho-10s are HE speakers, I am fairly certain there is compression going on. My listening position is roughly 23' feet from the speakers. Also, I remember a post by Tom Danley on some forum where he said using a more powerful amp on his Sh50s in his home helped improve the sound on the speakers, even though that speaker should require a minimal around of amplification. So I think headroom is paramount, even where you have HE speakers.

Also, I was thinking that it is possible that the active versions' DSP crossover may be better than the crossover in the passive versions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

I recently moved from JTR Quintuple speakers to Yorkville U215's, so far i like the upgrade.
If i still have my JTR speakers around later on, i have a new processor coming, Marantz AV8801, and will definitely do some a/b testing again to see if the new processor changes the sound a bit.
p

If you end up a/b'ing, that would be great info. Seems that these higher end pro speakers are a great bang for the buck since that space is so competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zheka View Post

You may be able to rent the Yorkvilles. I know Midwest pro sound guys carry the brand though I am not sure about the unity line specifically. There are other yorkville dealers in Chicago area.

Excellent to know, that place isn't too far from me.
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post #8 of 17
1/6/13 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by economyte View Post

I'll check out that link, thanks. They Unity's do seem like a fantastic deal, especially since it doesn't feel difficult at all to find them used. How is their appearance in your room?
I was thinking about going the powered route because I was planning on getting a pro amp to begin with to power the L/Rs anyways. I am currently powering them from my receiver and even though the Sho-10s are HE speakers, I am fairly certain there is compression going on. My listening position is roughly 23' feet from the speakers. Also, I remember a post by Tom Danley on some forum where he said using a more powerful amp on his Sh50s in his home helped improve the sound on the speakers, even though that speaker should require a minimal around of amplification. So I think headroom is paramount, even where you have HE speakers. Also, I was thinking that it is possible that the active versions' DSP crossover may be better than the crossover in the passive versions.

Appearance in my room currently is very questionable. They are in a temporary setup in my family room placed on a couple of old oak TV stands and sitting smack dab in front of a pair of LS-6 line arrays that normally anchor the system. When installed in the HT room, they will be in either a baffle wall or false wall -- still deliberating -- behind an AT screen so they will be totally hidden from view. The room is a bonus room with attic space behind the knee walls on either side so I could flush mount a pair there as well for surrounds. Pretty sure that would be overkill...but.... smile.gif

It would make sense that the powered versions would have DSP exactly dialed in from the factory to extract all the goods that they have to offer...I'm not familiar with any direct comparisons of powered/non-powered. I've read that the factory amps have had some failures though; not sure if this was an older problem that has been corrected or not, but food for thought. Much easier to swap in another amp than deal with the powered unit's failure.
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post #9 of 17
1/6/13 at 3:30pm
I remember reading about the active DSP being good simply for time alignment purposes of the drivers in the unity horn.
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post #10 of 17
1/6/13 at 4:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by economyte View Post

My listening position is roughly 23' feet from the speakers.

Wow, ... 23 feet!

Quote:
Originally Posted by economyte View Post

Seems that these higher end pro speakers are a great bang for the buck since that space is so competitive.

With the exception of the top end/most expensive offerings, most all pro audio gear is very competitively priced, and outstanding bargains for HT use.


I'd like to hear the Yorkvilles sometime. The SEOS clearly seems to offer so much, and the effort behind them is extraordinary. I've not listened to either the SEOS or the Unity.

I'm a big fan of the QSC offerings,... which top out with the high performance, high value KW-122. Even way down with the modest K-8, of which I own four- for surrounds and rears, are quite strong performers for such reasonable investment. I auditioned them temporarily as LCRs, enjoyed them so much I left them in position for an long time. Compared and in context of what I own in my room (JBL, Klipsch, Seaton Cats), the powered QSC line is truly amazing. These modest, plastic, lightweight, yet high powered and DSP contoured boxes offer up solid performance that's ideally suited for the demands associated with HT. I've heard a lot of pro two-ways, the QSCs are big time, over achievers. The wood cab KW-122s, address the shortcomings of the lesser, plastic, K-8.


Best of luck
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post #11 of 17
1/6/13 at 7:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

Wow, ... 23 feet!
With the exception of the top end/most expensive offerings, most all pro audio gear is very competitively priced, and outstanding bargains for HT use.
I'd like to hear the Yorkvilles sometime. The SEOS clearly seems to offer so much, and the effort behind them is extraordinary. I've not listened to either the SEOS or the Unity.
I'm a big fan of the QSC offerings,... which top out with the high performance, high value KW-122. Even way down with the modest K-8, of which I own four- for surrounds and rears, are quite strong performers for such reasonable investment. I auditioned them temporarily as LCRs, enjoyed them so much I left them in position for an long time. Compared and in context of what I own in my room (JBL, Klipsch, Seaton Cats), the powered QSC line is truly amazing. These modest, plastic, lightweight, yet high powered and DSP contoured boxes offer up solid performance that's ideally suited for the demands associated with HT. I've heard a lot of pro two-ways, the QSCs are big time, over achievers. The wood cab KW-122s, address the shortcomings of the lesser, plastic, K-8.

Best of luck

I am leaning towards the KW-122s. The big factor is size. I made a paper template to see the size of the U15s versus the KW-122s, and the size difference is pretty substantial. Given that these speakers will be going in my family room, KW-122s won't stand out as much. Also, the fact that the QSC's have a 6 year warranty and also appear to have pretty good resale value helps. I also have been reading that the Unity implementation done on the U15 has some shortcomings, some of which can be fixed ... though I don't think that is a project I want to take on as my first DIY type project.

FOH - Do you find the fans on the amps for your QSC's audible? Also, if you wouldn't mind, compared to your Cats, what do you think the QSC's biggest shortcomings are?
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post #12 of 17
1/6/13 at 8:12pm
I'm pretty sure most of the perceived 'shortcomings' of the Yorkville Unity implementation are in the context of comparing them to Danley's newer Synergy line...it's not that they are inherently flawed speakers with a long list of major upgrades needed to make them listenable. :-)

There are some that think the Synergy stuff is the best there is. I'm betting the Yorkville Unitys are closer to that descriptor than they are a flawed design. ;-)
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post #13 of 17
1/7/13 at 4:28am
So what are some of the mods that people are doing to their Yorkvilles to make them sound better? What does Tom Danley recommend for the mods/upgrades to the U15? How do they actually compare to the Danley and Seaton offerings, with the upgrades and/or mods done to them?
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post #14 of 17
1/7/13 at 6:47am
wished i knew what mods could be done to make the yorkvilles sound better, i don't think tom danley normally replies, i sent him a pm inquiring. i had read that a crossover upgrade would vastly improve the sound, but how to get that crossover upgrade is another story.
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post #15 of 17
1/7/13 at 7:48am
The onboard fans are a non-issue. Believe me, in a residential setting, these things are merely coasting along .... which is exactly what one wants wrt dynamic capability and signal tracking.

You make a great point regarding resale value. I highly recommend you audition them first, but at any point down the road, you could easily sell these to the portable sound community.

The biggest shortcomings ... tough one really, maybe the waveguide/horn plastic could be thicker and ring less. That's splitting hairs. Another is potential diffraction associated with the cabinet edges. Both those potential issues are easily addressed. The horn issue with some rope caulk/duct seal, .. and some duct tape (a common tweak w/horns), and some felt, foam etc, on the rough or abrupt edges of the front.

They need care taken in optimizing toe angle for optimal imaging and FR. Once that's achieved, these are giant killers,.. mjaudio, in the thread I'll link to compared them favorably to his Von Schweikerts hifi loudspeakers, that's quite impressive.

Myself, my K-8s destroyed my Klipsch 8" two ways, and compared to my Cats, the higher build quality Cats simply have a level of refinement and much more robust ability through the midbass, somewhat better coherenceoherance top to bottom help in part to the coaxial approach. But that's a pair of the finest 12's available, in an entirely inert, sealed enclosure, ... as opposed to an pro 8", in a plastic box optimized for portability.

I'm convinced the KW122s, with a nice effort of optimization with toe angles, Audyssey, etc, would easily make someone very happy for a long time. It's a simple, well vetted recipe, ie; a pro two-way, compression HF, in a conical waveguide, both sections matched coverage at the crossover, DSP contoured and high power/high sensitivity.

Here is a discussion you may or may not be familiar with.

Best of luck, audition as much as you can, and give strong consideration to a SEOS based platform, if you have any DIY inclinations.
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post #16 of 17
1/7/13 at 7:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Smith View Post

I'm pretty sure most of the perceived 'shortcomings' of the Yorkville Unity implementation are in the context of comparing them to Danley's newer Synergy line...it's not that they are inherently flawed speakers with a long list of major upgrades needed to make them listenable. :-)
There are some that think the Synergy stuff is the best there is. I'm betting the Yorkville Unitys are closer to that descriptor than they are a flawed design. ;-)

Agreed completely. Based on listening impressions I have read on the Yorkville's, this is definitely the case. I also came across a thread on an a/b of the Yorkville against a Geddes Summa (or perhaps it was an Abbey) and the Yorkville fared quite well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ufokillerz View Post

wished i knew what mods could be done to make the yorkvilles sound better, i don't think tom danley normally replies, i sent him a pm inquiring. i had read that a crossover upgrade would vastly improve the sound, but how to get that crossover upgrade is another story.

The only mods that I have read about people actually discussing in some detail are in the links below. Also below are some links on what has been suggested on tweaking its performance.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/153153-modding-yorkville-unity-5.html
http://forum.audiopsychosis.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75&start=20
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1436739/jbl-4675c-with-tad-4002-compression-driver/30
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post #17 of 17
1/7/13 at 8:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH View Post

The onboard fans are a non-issue. Believe me, in a residential setting, these things are merely coasting along .... which is exactly what one wants wrt dynamic capability and signal tracking.
You make a great point regarding resale value. I highly recommend you audition them first, but at any point down the road, you could easily sell these to the portable sound community.
The biggest shortcomings ... tough one really, maybe the waveguide/horn plastic could be thicker and ring less. That's splitting hairs. Another is potential diffraction associated with the cabinet edges. Both those potential issues are easily addressed. The horn issue with some rope caulk/duct seal, .. and some duct tape (a common tweak w/horns), and some felt, foam etc, on the rough or abrupt edges of the front.
They need care taken in optimizing toe angle for optimal imaging and FR. Once that's achieved, these are giant killers,.. mjaudio, in the thread I'll link to compared them favorably to his Von Schweikerts hifi loudspeakers, that's quite impressive.
Myself, my K-8s destroyed my Klipsch 8" two ways, and compared to my Cats, the higher build quality Cats simply have a level of refinement and much more robust ability through the midbass, somewhat better coherenceoherance top to bottom help in part to the coaxial approach. But that's a pair of the finest 12's available, in an entirely inert, sealed enclosure, ... as opposed to an pro 8", in a plastic box optimized for portability.
I'm convinced the KW122s, with a nice effort of optimization with toe angles, Audyssey, etc, would easily make someone very happy for a long time. It's a simple, well vetted recipe, ie; a pro two-way, compression HF, in a conical waveguide, both sections matched coverage at the crossover, DSP contoured and high power/high sensitivity.
Here is a discussion you may or may not be familiar with.
Best of luck, audition as much as you can, and give strong consideration to a SEOS based platform, if you have any DIY inclinations.

Thanks, that is really helpful. I am really surprised that these haven't caught on a bit more for HT. I think I remember reading that the replacement cost by QSC for the plate amps alone was like $400 a piece.

I definitely do have DIY inclinations, but the amount of free time I have shrinks by the day (2 young kids and a 3rd on the way), so I think I will need to put DIY on the backburner for now. Though it seems like I could probably do a SEOS based kit over a weekend, so I keep getting pulled back in. Erich has made it such a cost effective and simple option for those with even limited free time for DIY.
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