Is your subwoofer / LFE HOT?

+2 for me. Mild

I don't run the LFE channel hot. FWIW, after Audyssey is done with the settings, I pull out the sound meter and adjust to 75dB. Does this change the Audyssey setting? Yes, but I don't see adjusting the Audyssey setting a few dB to match overall speaker output standards to be running hot.

The point, when is hot, hot and when is it simply adjusting to match a given standard?

Lfe should be at 85db fwiw

.....

Says who?

The sub is calibrated to 75dB using AVR provided pink noise and internal AVR gain settings but when the movie sound track plays, the AVR volume control is set to -15dB or -10dB and the overall volume, not counting headroom dynamics, is ~85dB - 95dB with, according to THX reference standard, the LFE channel having +10dB more dynamics then all the other channels.

(this is because that's how humans perceive low frequencies; the need for more energy in the sub <40Hz for perceived levels to be perceived the same)

Aside from the expected missing nuts, bolts, screws, deck cards and bricks from the cart of bricks we all haul around, what else am I missing in my above?

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/6/13 at 4:37am

I run music at the expected level but if it's a five-star Master List movie, I'll run it about 3dB quieter than Audyssey's recommendation. I live in an apartment.

Hot is an analogous term as opposed to a literal term.

I run mine hot for movies and even a bit hot for music. Love it!

Could you put that in dB's please?
Edited by coolcat4843 - 1/6/13 at 6:48am

+7 for me for most movies. Music based movies I'll turn it down to +3db.

I run mine at reference.

+2 for me also.

In this context, hot is a literal term meaning running above reference. I know you have a separate Beeman library of audio definitions but for once, lets stay with the standard and accepted use of the word here. It avoids confusion.

I run my subs at reference but will run 3db hot during more spirited listening sessions.

What you described meets the definition of analogous.

I'll let you do what you suggest. I'm quite happy dancing to my own tune which makes a lot more sense then your tune.

Jerry Reed: "When you hot, you hot and when you're not you're not."

Look up physical hot which associates with temperature and not volume increase and you'll see by definition, how the term is used and that it's clearly analogous and not literal. And as you explore the word's usage, you'll see the analogies added into the primary usage, hot wire, hot car, hot temperament, hot wife, et cetera. Like it or not, agree with it or not, no matter how much one wished to torture their metaphors, language does have valid, primary meanings and then enters analogies.

On it's face, when English is not an individual's primary language and even to many where English is the language of their birth, in it's many dualities, analogies, colloquialisms and metaphors, the meaning is not always obvious or apparent.

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/6/13 at 7:37am

The owners manual of my Onkyo TX-NR3009 receiver is suggesting that if I have THX certified speakers,
that I should select 80Hz, for my low-pass filter for the LFE channel.

What are the pros and cons of doing that?
I use the THX Cinema listening mode to watch movies and have my speakers crossover set at 80Hz.

I set up my 5.2 system first with MCACC for reverb and distance, then set the 5 to 80db at the listening position, and gain match my subs at 85db.

Reference is a specific level
Running "hot" is a term to describe, literally, running above that level. That's why it can be measured in db - because it's a specific and literal reference.

An analogy would be comparing a subwoofer running hot to a Ferrari or a Brazilian Supermodel.

3-6 dBs hot and another 3 dBs below 20hz. Running your subs hot and running your subs at reference are two different things. Many run their subs hot but listen at below reference. I listen at reference and run my subs hot. So I hit over 126 dBs at times.

YES! I run mine 4db hot, and love it!

Even steven with my mains. I prefer a more seemless blend at whatever volume I listen to.

I used to run the subs approx 3db hot but since adding Audyssey XT32 about a year ago, I have been running level matched subs and I see no good reason to increase the sub levels. Hot bass is fun but I like to think I am getting what was intended by the sound engineers who produced the movie/music and my system can deliver that (well down to 15hz or so ).

Me too with leveled subs. Integra DHC manual says to set all speakers at 75 DB with spl meter then run XT32. I did that and some of the speaker DB settings were down from my settings as well as the sub bass. Went and reset all DB with the meter to 75 DB and bumped the dual sub setup by +8 db (Home menu for Audio) to get my 75 DB in the sub channel. Stayed with the XT32 crossover settings, Mains at 70, Center at 55, and all surrounds at 60. Had run REW on the subs before calibration and the best was flat at 50 hz down past 12 hz so XT32 did a good job of finding the subs crossover. I listen at reference (0) and all is well and the mid range hits hard. This is with a fully treated room.
Edited by bsoko2 - 1/6/13 at 3:45pm

I have my system setup with Audyssey Mult EQ then I use a SPL meter from there. Front L&R 75db, Center 77db, Surround L&R 73db, Surround Back L&R 73db, 2 subs each one by itself 75db (so both on gets me up to 78db as a 0db AVR sub trim) then +2db on the AVR.

Run the subs at the level set by the AS-EQ1. Never listen pass (-15 dB Master Volume)...afraid something might blow up (i.e. Gas Boiler in adjacent room).

I run my sub at reference, but I have a lot of room gain from 25Hz to 40Hz so those frequencies get a good 6 to 8db bump. My next goal is to try to flatten things out a bit as just MultEQ alone isn't quite cutting it.

Mine is calibrated by mcacc to +0.5 db  and gain about 10 O clock poisiton so the niddle is readin 75 on spl meter.  

Hmmm... Dolby, DTS, THX and virtually anyone else you ask. The way this works is that you calibrate the "subwoofer output", (which is NOT equivalent to the LFE channel.) The LFE channel is only PART of the subwoofer output. The bass that is re-directed to the subwoofer output from the main channels is the other PART of the subwoofer output. So, when you calibrate the subwoofer output, you are calibrating it so the whole signal is equal to the speakers at 75 dB.

The LFE channel is recorded and encoded at the same level as the rest of the channels. This done to conserve headroom. However, on playback the LFE Channel gets a 10 dB boost in the Dolby or DTS decoder. Therefore, the LFE Channel, and JUST the LFE channel, will be at 85 dB when the subwoofer output is calibrated to 75 dB.

Here's what you're missing:

The receiver's internal test tones are a noise signal with content from 40 to 80 Hz. Therefore, when you set the subwoofer trim based on the noise signal from the AVR, you are setting it on this limited bandwidth, which may not be fully representative of the entire subwoofer bandwidth.

When Audyssey sets the levels, it uses sweeps. It looks at individual frequency levels across the entire subwoofer bandwidth, at up to 8 different points in the room, and sets the levels based on the spatial average of the levels it measures at all the frequencies, at all those different points. It is a far more sophisticated level setting procedure than setting the levels based on one octave of the subwoofer bandwidth, measured at one point in space.

More importantly, when you play the AVR's test tones, Audyssey's EQ is BYPASSED; it's not in the signal path, and the effects of Audyssey's EQ are not available to be measured! If you engage Audyssey after you set the levels with the test tones and the SPL meter, the levels will be WRONG. The fact that you need to change the subwoofer trim when using the test tones and SPL meter means that, by definition, you have set them wrong.

This is the 3rd time I've explained this to you on this forum. Feel free to do whatever you want with your own system, and please enjoy it to your heart's content. However, for others reading along, it is not advised that you use a simple SPL meter and the AVR's test tones to reset the levels after running Audyssey. One of the things Audyssey does correctly is set the levels. If you want to perform a manual calibration of your speakers, then don't use Audyssey. If you do use Audyssey, don't reset the levels afterwards, (unless you want to run your subwoofer "hot", which is the subject of this thread.


Back on topic...

To answer the OP's question for myself, I use the Audyssey calibrated trim levels, and then I engage Audyssey DEQ, which increases the subwoofer levels at lower frequencies when the volume is set below Reference Level to compensate for our natural decreased hearing sensitivity at low frequencies. I use a 5 dB Ref. Level Offset, because I prefer that to the full effect of DEQ. I also engage the DSP Prgm2 on my subwoofers, Seaton Submersive HP's. That adds a slight boost at lower frequencies, starting at 40 Hz and resulting in a 3 dB boost at 19 Hz:



These two together, (DEQ + Prgm2), result in the bass being "hot" in my system, even when I listen at full Reference Level.

Craig

Why that's mighty sporting. Here's what I've gotten gotten so far with the aid of that sound meter.

(The subwoofers are a pair of eighteen year old (2.1^3) ported boxes, similarly aged amplifiers with recently replaced 12" drivers and radiators installed)



I'm playing some more with the subwoofer system today to see what havoc I can create with that little ole sound meter.

The rules are:

1. The main listening position must stay the same.

2. No room treatments allowed.

3. Any subwoofer placement must meet WAF.

(Today I'm currently looking at upgrading to a better class of calibrated sound meter as at +/- 2dB, basic sound meters are woefully inadequate for my OCD needs)

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Edited by BeeMan458 - 1/26/13 at 9:12am

So we can keep Skylinestar's thread on the topic of running the subwoofer(s) hot,, why don't you start a new thread with your results, (which look pretty good, BTW.) Provide your process and the mod's you made to the subs. You'll get more responses and better feedback in your own thread.

Craig

Thanks but I'm not looking for feedback, suggestions or support and I've learned never to start my own thread unless absolutely necessary. I'm simply showing what one can do when playing with a sound meter as it's okay to ignore Audyssey settings in the case of obtaining the 75dB, main listening position standard.

Audyssey isn't the end but instead is the beginning. Yes, a bit of human intervention with the addition of an Anti-Mode and a sound meter can and will improve a subwoofer's sonic chain.

I'm betting many have to run their subs hot because of nulls sucking the life our of their mid-bass. Ya can't have that zing if a null is sucking the life out of your mid-bass slam.