New speakerpower rack mounted subwoofer amps

I think the 4000 watt plate amp is the one used in the JTR cap s2 (tweaked of course). So they're probably good for the claims. Still, for the larger offerings 2 clones for less just would seem to hard to ignore. Now vs a real Lab, like you said probably a good value.

Yep, Seaton, JTR, and Danley are three companies well known to us that use Speakerpower amps. I believe they've been selling to the general public for nearly 2 years now...the ones offered to the general public are the 'stripper' models without DSP. The owner of the company spent 11 years at QSC as director of engineering and 7 years at Renkus-Heinz doing the same thing; nice pedigree. Great amps, but as gpmbc said, not exactly the kind of deal that we are used to.

I do believe these are made here in the good 'ol USA (seen it mentioned in a few prosound news news blurbs). The ones I've looked at didn't have a 'made in China' sticker anywhere on them.

Of course they take the most useful feature out of them (the DSP) when they sell them directly to consumers.

Although, I have it on good authority directly from an OEM user of them that the DSP is the SpeakerPower amps would not be feasible for DIY'ers to use. I did not get an explanation as to what aspect of programming or controlling the DSP made it effectively unusable for a DIY'er though.

Funk Audio is selling the same kinda of amp WITH the dsp for around 2200

It's the 2.4KW version x 2 in a rack mountable chassis. I wasn't saying it's better or worst, just that it's also and option with the DSP and good power. It's the same power as the ones that power JTR's subs, not sure if they are speakerpower though. 2.4KW and 4KW burst with DSP.

Hi All. I am the owner of SpeakerPower. I just found this thread and thought I would answer a few questions.

Made in USA. Yes all assembly and test is in Santa Ana California. Some of my smaller amps use oem amp modules but in these high power sub amps every circuit board is assembled locally.

Low noise fans are available for noise sensitive applications. Also high noise, high output fans for pro sound users who want to wring every bit out of their subs doing electronic music shows.

DSP is not available in the amps for retail sale now. They have a analog sub bandpass filter which can be switched to flat if signal processing is done upstream. I don't think DSP is the "most useful feature" when for HT at least, most preamp processors have this built in. This amp is most useful when you need solid power to very low frequencies at high duty cycles.

Comparisons to other amps on the market must be done carefully since many amps have specs that are uhhh optimistic at best. Especially at low frequencies, some amps just don't hold up. I have benchmarked my amps against the real Lab Gruppen FP14000 and the Pascal Xpro "2400W" amps used by FW. Here is what I measured.

Pascal Xpro3 CH1 only 120VAC mains
1400W/4 1KHz 1% for 2 seconds, dropping to 223W after that
730W/4 40Hz 1% for 10 seconds dropping to 223W after that. Lower frequencies are even worse.

Lab Gruppen FP14000 120VAC mains
3000W/4 for 200 milliseconds dropping to 1500W/4.
4800W/2 for 80 milliseconds dropping to 1500W/2
Yes that's right. Milliseconds. Thousandths of a second.

SpeakerPower SP1-4000 120VAC mains
2400W/4 40Hz 1% indefinitely
4000W/2 40Hz for 4 seconds, dropping to 2000W/2

As you can see, almost all amps these days have a short term power which finds its way onto the spec sheet, and a long term power that you can't find anywhere. This is a valid design strategy, but any burst power spec shorter than 50ms at 40 Hz (2 cycles, sounds like a kick drum thump) is useless IMHO.

Thank you for your interest. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Brian Oppegaard
President
SpeakerPower Inc.
www.speakerpower.net

A couple SP2-8000 would be something I'd love to get my hands on if my clones ever fail me.
So Brian, Funk audio uses the Pascal Xpro3?
The DSP is a nice but like you say, is really not needed in most situations. What is the warranty on the amps??

Great find Rilla!

Last I visited the SpeakerPower site (few months back) I didn't see these...

Hi guys,

As you can see, the SpeakerPower 2400 & 4kW amps are serious amplifiers. Jeff & I have both tested these amps against similarly powered amplifiers and the comparison is more appropriate to amplifiers like I-Tech's, the big QSC amp, and other such competitors when you are interested in useful low frequency delivery. As an example, while my own upgrade from the original 1000W ICEpower based SubMersive to the HP model is ~2.4x maximum power, but 5-7x the higher duration power. Of course that's harder to explain vs. "2400W!"

They do cost more, but if you have a problem, at worst you ship it back to southern CA and Brian's team takes care of you. For DIY use, my suggestion to Brian was to look at adding a MiniDSP to the front end with appropriate gain and clipping points.

Brian, I didn't see it mentioned above, but am I correct that the fan only kicks on beyond a temperature threshold, so at idle or low level, it is silent?

The minidsp is a good idea. Those knuckle heads just need to make a proper XLR version. I've seen a 500 watt SP but those big ones look pretty sweet. I've love to see how one performs vs the fp14 clones (in real time, not on paper of course)

Sorry, but I don't exactly see how you can make that statement. The most unique features the OEM SpeakerPower amps have over pretty much any other amp in the DIY space is the tightly integrated DSP. The integrated limiting, EQ, Filters, etc. We can get high power pro amps with big output from companies like QSC. But they lack any sort of customizable current and voltage limiting to protect a driver from the careless guest or relative with their hands on the volume knob (unless the amp, driver, and enclosure are very carefully matched). Sure you can slap a MiniDSP in the system and use it for EQ, HPF, LT, etc (assuming you can set it up to not clip the signal chain which is a whole other problem), but it can't protect the a driver like your OEM products do.

While you see the power output as the selling feature, I don't see it. The DIY crowd chases cheap power. Look at how popular the Behriger and the Sanway Lab Gruppen clones are. Your plate amps don't deliver there except perhaps the biggest 4kW model which is more rare air. You amps could market themselves in how polished and idiot proof they can make a DIY creation which is why I don't see why you felt the need to remove perhaps the most compelling and market differentiating feature of your amps from your non OEM customers.

The Berries are one thing, but most people don't have the appetite for needless risk that using the counterfeit Lab Gruppens requires. (And they have more honor than to knowingly purchase counterfeit product.)

The power, efficiency, and general "doing things right-ness" (NRTL safety certification, etc.) are all big selling points for this amp. I wish SpeakerPower the best with it. (Though I won't be buying one, simply because my ElectroVoice CPS-8.5 meets the needs of my multisub system, and has the same virtues as the SpeakerPower amps but with more channels and less power per channel.)

Would there be a noticeable advantage from using the SP1-4000 to drive a single LMS 5400 (sealed in 3 cu ft) for home theater use as compared to the Pascal amps you mentioned above. On paper I see the substantial difference you point out, but what would the real life differences look like?

Well that depends on the recovery profile / characteristics of the amplifier and how you're using it. Unfortunately Brian didn't list and recovery information for any of the amps.

this is an edit, as the previous post got away unintended


"I don't think DSP is the "most useful feature" when for HT at least, most preamp processors have this built in. This amp is most useful when you need solid power to very low frequencies at high duty cycles."


I believe you're both likely right. Brian doesn't think the most useful aspect is the DSP. Stereodude, I agree that the DSP is the most unique feature.

Ever since I stumbled across these amps a few years ago, I thought the entire on-board DSP concept was ideally suited for the DIY crowd. Not as much for subs, as I thought they'd be ideal for mains. For a sub system, I believe outboad DSP is best. A more global approach, akin to a 2x4, or a 4x8 processor.

I've been an audio enthusiast, and a hifi loud-speaker fanatic ever since the 70's. A few years ago I found myself in a search for new LCR mains. In addition to being a longtime enthusiast, I'm also coming from a FOH pro-audio background, with a bit of studio exposure too. Stereodude's right, availing a high quality, multi-way, programable DSP, high power plate or "torpedo" amp for the DIY crowd would be fantastic. Like everyone, I know that an active design can have inherent advantages over other approaches, and that's the direction I wanted to pursue for my new LCRs, .... and I was considering a DIY project.

Subs, I could do. A simple, yet robust IB system was designed and eventually pulled off. Now I fully regognize that a DIY mains effort is one thing, but properly measuring, designing, and executing a multi-way active X-over isn't a trivial exercise. So after much experimentation and istening, everything pointed to Seaton's Catalyst, which is the avenue I ultiately took. The big Catalysts are many things, but the essence of what you get is Mark's outstanding design choices, and optimization skill-set and prowess. This, is the ideal execution of the high power/on-board DSP plate amplifier.

Conversely, for subwoofers, I think that the DSP component is optimal as a centralized hub, in a multi-element sub system (ie, multiple discrete processing channels, multiple amplifier channels, multiple subwoofer locations, and lastly multiple locations). Sure, perhaps a single powered sub is best executed with onboard LT'ing, general EQ'ing, limiting, etc. But if I was designing a DIY multi-sub system, the power and contouring would be performed outboard.


Stereodude makes some solid points. The DIY crowd chases cheap power, ... and these days it is plentiful. But back to the specs, and spec'manship stuff and exagerated numbers, real-world power, etc. Nothing seems to be as good as actual empirical, in use measurments. Due to the incredible transient demands that's associated with a great deal of the material we encounter, I think everbody would agree that an ideal amp is one with phenomenal peak capability, in addition to the normal, long term power that is needed for a given platback level.

Good amplifier testing, is such a hard thing to come across these days.


Thanks
Edited by FOH - 1/23/13 at 11:08am

Really, your preamp processor has programmable voltage and current limiters for your subwoofer? I must have missed that "most preamp processors have this built in". Perhaps you can point me to one such product. Thanks!

As you can see by the package design, the target was pro customers or anyone who wanted an amplifier with its capabilities. It was not targeted at DIYers any more than the Behringers are, but it could be of interest to some. I expect most will stack up a few cheap, heavy amplifiers instead. Interestingly the 2400W & 4000W amplifiers are designed with a clip limiter of sorts which is more useful than you find on most amplifiers. Many users are fine with this as the primary clip limiter and then use some additional limiting to get some extra headroom per design limits. That of course requires specific understanding and knowledge of the design and choices of design trade offs.

You are also attributing much more intelligence to the DSP hardware vs the person programming it. I expect you have never downloaded the software posted. If you did you would see that it is 2 separate software packages to manipulate 3-4 different aspects of behavior with no real-time interface. There is an assumption the user understands various filter types and functions and for the user to test the result to insure that the correct values and behavior was loaded and executed, as it doesn't tell you details like when you are out of filters. For a tool a designer uses on multiple products, but only has to get right once and then copy, it offers great flexibility without paying for someone like BSS or Lake to develop an interface. Almost no other users go through some of the acrobatics I do in limiter definitions and the like. There is no field that says "cap output at 1800W". There are 3 numeric settings and a curve definition just for the limiter. Once you have the curves and filters ported to the correct format, you then have to sort through a node based flow diagram with points to load filter sets created in the other program. When most first look at the screen they respond with a verbal or implied "WTF do you do with that?" I haven't even gotten to the horribly clunky and quirky hardware connection which must use a real parallel port (adapters won't work) and an external interface box. Long story short, it is a programming tool with some significant capabilities which was never designed for general consumer us.

The reality is that external DSP such as a DCX-2496 in front of these or other amplifiers offers most of these flexibilities, including a few limiting functions. There are other devices which offer higher Q and deeper cut filters, more limiting adjustments, but most DIYers haven't investigated those evil "limiters," and would have no interest in even more options. So long as you max out or lock the input gain on the amplifier, any limiter in front of the amp can serve to limit output at specific Voltages.

I mentioned MiniDSP as they have shown some limiting functions in their plate amps based on the Pascal units. Adjusting for a different amplifier is always possible. The big difference is that MiniDSP has a software interface with integration of REW and a user base to help support it. It is likely that when SpeakerPower gets to a next generation of DSP it will be more user friendly, but at this point there aren't many amplifiers with ~95% efficiency and 2x 4000W @ 2 Ohm of power available for $2495.

I was referring more to the plate amps than the new rack mount amps with my DIY comment.
I have to admit that sounds like an unmitigated disaster to let loose to the public. I've never downloaded and taken a look at the software. I can't say that I've ever seen a link for it, but I haven't looked read hard either.
Yes, those evil limiters. They're right up there with high pass filters on ported boxes. Something that's just unnecessary

Mark makes valid points. This dsp is a development tool for a finished product that can then be loaded to each unit once finished. Mistakes with the settings can mean you end up with a toasted amp, driver or both. Even with dsp having a snazzy easier to comprehend GUI one wrong setting can cause damage or just bad system performance. There is a learning curve to dialing this stuff in and most diyers would be starting at the bottom. SP is saving themselves a bunch of support hours this way. You can accomplish most of the functionality with a dcx or similar.

+1

With the DSP I'm familiar with, defeating the driver toasting settings (high pass filters, etc.), you will promted,... kinda Windows OS style, .. "are you sure, this could fry your expensive, Serbian ribbons".

Yep. Now imagine everything is in a convoluted not easily understood program which you are attempting to learn and there are no prompts... and you have 6000w worth of amp primed.

Where was this dual 6000w American made beast at when I bought my K10's?

I'm back but it looks like you guys already answered the questions the way I would have! My first piece of advice to anyone is to buy a complete system from an experienced designer like Mark. The secret sauce he puts in to matching the speaker to the cabinet to the amp to the signal processing is worth every penny. But if you have the time and inclination, DIY is a lot of fun. I started that way.

Regarding limiters, the guys like FOH and Stereodude who have the knowledge to set them correctly are probably the guys who need them the least as long as their experienced hands are on the volume control. The DSPs I have now in the OEM amps were intended to be set and forget, optimizing the speaker but not the room. A lot of powerful functions inside but no need to make the control software particularly easy to use. The retail amps are just straight amps to reduce the support required but still make the unique power characteristics available more widely. The Warranty is 2 years parts and labor.

As an amp manufacturer, I admit to being amused at the LG clone thread where they are trying to fix and rebuild the cheap amps. That is not a good amp to clone IMHO. In addition to what I wrote above, the protection circuits flip on and off once per second when overloaded and the efficiency is only 60%.

The LMS 5400 does look like a woofer that can use all the power the SP1-4000 can deliver. The 2+2 impedance needs investigation. If the system impedance in the passband of the sealed cabinet is high enough, the voice coils could be paralleled. Have to see an graph to tell.

Brian

No kidding.

I missed this thread entirely. I'm gonna watch these amps like a hawk.

or i could http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/NU12000DSP.aspx

To be fair, the reports of failures are pretty small to the actual number of units that work fine with the clones. Everyone knows the gamble of buying one but it's hard to pass up when they put out the power they do. They are what they are and for most people, including myself (I have 4) that abuse the living crap out of them, they've worked without a hitch. The world of pro amps is big and SpeakerPower has a good name in the field, though new in the DIY world. I'd suggest you give a unit to someone to test, IMO thats the only way you are going to get customers like us at your price point. There is a TON of amps that will do a great job at 1/3 the cost, you have to do something much better than another to warrant the extra cost. If the Speaker Power amps really do put out what they say and you have 3rd party results to prove it, you could have a huge hit on your hands with the DIY crowd. I know I'm almost at the point to grab a sp2-8000 but 3K for me in Canada (by the time shipping and taxes) is a bit hard to swallow for a test without some tested results. I'm sure others feel the same as there are lots of amps that are tried and tested. Not saying that the SP amps won't blow the doors off of most of them but at the price point, it would be great to see 3rd party results. The clones have one big advantage in this case, the information in the clone thread.