Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How... - Page 6

I'm not picking on the poster but to suggest that one can be measuring in 5 minutes is a bit over exuberant!

 

Well I could have if I had a mic. It did only take me a few minutes to get it working (so far) thanks to the help in this thread and Feri's posts in particular. It's a bummer that you are having so many problems - I think Feri's advice is good - take a couple of days off and try again. That often works for me.

 

I bet Jason regrets ever hearing the words plug and play, let alone using them ;)

Not be negative, but if the sound card settings in the Control Panel need to be tweaked along with settings in REW to get signals processed properly, and there's the added complication (at least for me) that I'm not the only one using my laptop at our house, and that I'll have to reset the control panel when I use my laptop for purposes other than REW, like as an actual laptop....this isn't exactly going to be user-friendly.

Not to mention that I have a single HDMI output on the laptop, and I would otherwise use that output to connect my external monitor to the laptop, but I may be able to work around that by using the Dell's Display Port and Display Port to HDMI converter, or possibly a splitter (which may create lowest common demoninator HDMI complications that screw up the HDMI multichannel output, but I'm not trying that until I at least get a single HDMI output to the 4311 nailed down). And so it goes.....

As it happens, I have an older desktop PC that can run Windows 7 (32-bit, at least), and I could add a HDMI-audio capable sound/graphics card to it if I wanted to. But we'll have to see how the lappy works first, or if there are benefits to REW for me above and beyond what the OmniMic can do (I mean, I can adapt the new measure of measurement purity and do single speaker+sub or pairs of speskers for measuring FR on OmniMic easily enough). I'll be avidly reading where Keith, AJ, Feri, etc. - and Jason, the "thought leader" - are going regardless.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/9/13 at 1:40pm

Well, I just wish things were better.  I wasted another couple of hours this afternoon trying to understand why the REW beta+ASIO4ALL combo isn't working properly for me .  Following up on what I thought was a reasonable suggestion from Amir to temporarily use an Audyssey mic just to get some experience with configuring REW while waiting for the USB mic delivery, I had nothing but frustration.  Sometimes my laptop would recognize the mic, other times it wouldn't.  When it did recognize the mic, I couldn't get the input levels right.  I finally gave up, which I don't do very often.

 

So, being a long-time user of REW with an external soundcard, a calibrated EMM-6 mic, and a Xenyx mixer to provide the phantom power for the mic, I can now say that setting up REW the "old" way is clearly easier for me.  And if I need to buy a new laptop to get REW configured the "new" way, that will be more money than I am willing to pay.  And add to the expense the cost of a 25' HDMI cable ($35 from Bluejeans, including shipping), the cost of the "new" way is adding up.

 

I will likely cancel my USB mic order tomorrow.  I still look forward to participating in future discussions with regards to how to set up and interpret the measurements, as long as you guys don't throw me out because I'm not using a USB mic...

Well with more persistence I was able to get the HDMI to hook up to my AV7005 and see MULTI CH IN and then I was able to select Marantz in the Control Panel under my speakers and then I was able to select 5.1 and send test tones to all my channels.

So being a total newbie user to REW was not sure what to do next. I checked my Levels and all are in the 75db +/- 2 or so. So that looked good and should have been since I SPL metered them in the past.

Then while sitting in my couch with the mic in hand and pointing at my TV I ran the 1.1 thru 1.4 as a first pass and got some graphs. Not sure what they mean yet but will figure that out.

So I think I have everything setup and working, now to better understand the administrative pieces to REW and how to do the other L + sub and other combinations and look at these pretty charts to see what they mean.

Good progress.  Now we need to give the others a bit of time to catch up.  In the meantime, you should read the Help file in the REW forum.  It's like a tutorial, and very good.

I feel your pain, even the words plug-n-play solution was mention I didn't felt one bit it was going to be easy ... just look at HDMI HDCP handshank issue.

No, its an adventure!

Hi Jerry and all,

Having the same thought I also plugged the Audyssey mic into the laptop's mic input and while also waiting for my UMIK-1 usb mic I did a trial & error play described as below.

First, pix of my living room setup:

From couch:



From TV:



As can be seen, this is a normal living room, no pro acoustical treatments of any kind installed, just rugs, curtains, bookshelves, coffee table with table cloth and textile seating (no leather).

Gear:

Denon AVR-2310 (MultEQ)

Speakers:

Front L&R: Dali Concept 2
Center: Dali Concept center
Surrounds and front heights: Dali Concept 1
Sub: Dali Concept sub

Laptop: Toshiba A660-1EU

Laptop to AVR: single HDMI cable

REW + ASIO4ALL on board setup for 8 channel output.

So, the graphs:

Center + sub pinged in REW. Made a 6 point measurement, just like when setting up Audyssey and then averaged them in REW. A lousy average, coz REW is not Audyssey, so the fuzzy logic part is naturally missing, treat is just as an estimation of what Audyssey is doing in a room. And, of course, all done with a mic without a known calibration file.

Audyssey off:

6 point measurement:



Averaged:



Audyssey target curve on:

6 point measurement:



Averaged:



Audyssey off and Audyssey target overlayed:



So far, so good!
Edited by mogorf - 1/9/13 at 5:14pm

Not bad, Feri. The fact that you were able to get the Audyssey mic working with your PC leads me to believe that my laptop has some compatibility issue.

It's another plug-n-play mic! LOL

There's only so much one person can take so I understand your frustration.
You probably already done so but is the RealTek ATI firmware up to date? And how old is your laptop?

I feel my old way is easier as well just to graph sub result:
RS Digital SPL meter -> single RCA cable -> UCA202 (red input) -> USB cable -> Laptop
UCA202 (red output) -> single RCA cable to RCA Y-cable -> Receiver "AUX INPUT" (red/white).
Receiver "Subwoofer PreOut" -> Outlaw EX "Sub IN"

Your advice is always helpful and welcome here. Hopefully you'll give it another go around when the smoke clears.

Nice Feri.

I have posted my issue on the REW forum on The Home Theater Shack but have, so far, zero responses.

regarding post #10, If the usb mic already comes calibrated then why calibrate it (again) with a spl meter?

if someone doesn't have a usb mic and spl meter isn't better to get dayton audio emm-6 and a usb dual art pre?

I'd think that the intent is to be sure that you've go the mic set for the correct sensitivity which varies depending on your computer hardware settings.

Should only take a few seconds to perform.

Correct. Your input gain settings and the sensitivity will affect the results, so the first step to getting accurate results is to verify that the readings from the Mic correspond to the readings from a known device (an SPL meter). The calibrated mic is merely calibrated to generae a correction file for the deviation from a flat response, compared to a known accurate device. If a particular mic reads 90db at 200Hz where the Reference mic reads the same, but only 75db at 20Hz where the Reference Mic reads 85db, then the correction file reintroduces that 10db difference to the output measured at that frequency with the calibrated mic so the results are in line with what you'd see if you were using a Reference spec mic. To sync everything up though, you need to first verify that a tone with a 90db SPL is being measured by the system in total (with Input Gain settings, avr output volume settings etc.) AS 90db.

Although this next bit is stepping a little ahead of the current position in using REW, when and if you ever choose to try system distortion limit measurements, you'll find that you'll need to bring out the SPL meter again and tweak the Inut gain settings.

Eg. when I tested my setup to see if it could indeed play flat to 105db SPL at my MLP through 20Hz-20kHz, I measured the FR at 75db, 85db, 95db and 105db then compared the graphs to see if there was any deviation in the Frequency Response measurements at increasing SPLs to see if compression or clipping was beginning to rear its ugly head. You can't just simply turn up the volume knob on the avr and take measurements at the louder volumes though. That 30db difference between the first set of measurements and the last was too great for the measurement system and would clip the inputs if I didn't turn the measurement setup's input gain down. That's one of the steps in REW, you verify that the REW measured SPL with your mic of choice corresponds to the SPL read by a known device (like a RatShack SPL meter), AND set up the Input Gain so you have an optimal range for the measured signal. Turn the Input gain too high and you'll clip the input signal, rendering the measurements useless. Set the Input gain too low and you'll be obscuring data (BTW, this was with my external Roland Quad Capture soundcard with it's own Gain knobs etc. PLUS the Input and Output gain settings in Windows and REW, so your mileage may vary if you're solely using the internal soundcard with an USB mic).

No, REW is NOT Plug N Play in the manner most folks have come to view PnP. Definitely not in the way that Omnimic or XTZ is, but that said, I do feel that it IS worth the effort for me to use, as it has tools that the other systems don't, and the USB mic plus HDMI connection setup will make things a lot easier to use,... once you have all the basic settings ironed out, and unfortunately, that's where one of REW's steep learning curves comes in. All the little settings in Windows (and the various different versions of Windows that different users may be on) that need to be correctly set for everything to work together. No sound from HDMI? Did you set your soundcard's outputs correctly? My laptop doesn't automatically output sound through the HDMI connection, only video. I have to go into the configuration to change that manually. Once I know how and where to do that, it's quick and simple, but until and unless I know that, it can be a PITA. Did I configure the input channel settings in Windows correctly for REW? (this was my first PITA when trying to hook up my external soundcard. Took a while for me to figure that one out).

HDMI plus USB Mic Plug-N-Play? Definitely not for a newbie. A lot easier once you figure out all the proper configuration settings? Yes, definitely. More powerful than OM and XTZ? Yes. Worth the hassle and frustration? Yes to me, but up to each individual to decide.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 1/10/13 at 2:03am

I already have an omnimic (and a few other non usb testing mics) and would like to avoid buying yet one more calibration mic.

Can it be used with the furnished correction file with the latest version of REW? Is it listed in the drop down box?

I understand from page 1 that it may not be individually calibrated (which may or may not matter) but for now, I'd just like to use it.

 

What attracted me to REW is its ability to do so much more than OM can in its current form. Of course, this added feature set also brings in its wake added complexity too. But I like, for example, the idea of being able to take every measurement full range, and then select the actual range of frequencies I am interested in for further analysis. I also like the fact that I can make a measurement file and send it to Jason or someone much more experienced than I am and he can load it into REW and help me with the analysis of the data. I like the way REW will let me test each speaker separately (as Audyssey does). I like the way REW will let me load up to 20 graphs into one screen for comparison. I much prefer generating the signal from REW to using a CD of test tones, which is cumbersome for me because my system is outside the HT and I cannot use the individual remotes (no line of sight) so I have to juggle between the AVP and BD player on my Harmony.  These are just some of the things I have read about REW so far - I know there will be many more. REW seems to me to be the 'next step' along the sophistication trail. But yeah, it has a learning curve!

 

What should give everyone heart is the fact that if I can master it, anyone can. I am really not a techy person and have zero experience with Windows computers, being a long-time Mac user. (Once I am experienced with REW and once REW supports HDMI on the Mac I will probably switch to the Mac version for example). I even had to google how to find the Sound adjustment dialog in Windows so that I could select 5509 Display Audio as my default :)  So far, I have to say, I am getting on OK. The proof of the pudding will be when my mic arrives and I take my first measurement.

 

But I do sympathise with Jerry and Audioguy - I am sure that I would have given up by now too if I had had their problems. I can't see why, when they follow the exact steps I did (see JChin's useful post for info) that it doesn't work for them. But, TBH, this was my experience all those years ago with Windows and why I gave up on it - because Windows is the bastard child of Operating Systems and allows itself to be used on machines made by a thousand different manufacturers, using a thousand different parts, with a thousand different specs, there will always be this uncertainty that what works for one user will not work for another. It is also why, usually, if something works on one Mac, it will work on every other Mac in the world. In some ways, OM is OS-X and REW is Windows - the added flexibility Windows gives also brings added complexity.

 

We will see if I am singing the same tune when my mic arrives - so far I am only halfway there ;)

And where does one go to learn EXACTLY where to look, what to change, what to not change? That is one of the many frustrations I am having

 

NFW would anyone throw you out Jerry!!  Even if you stick with the 'old' REW way, you still have a massive potential contribution to make here. You are already REW-experienced for one thing, unlike us REW Virgins. I look forward to continuing to learn much from your posts.

 

+1. I downloaded the PDF version, transferred it to the PDF reader on my iPad and I now have a new 'book at bedtime'. It's 155 pages long FFS!

 

+1. I prefer to see it that way too!

 

Very impressive, Feri. I can do this too while waiting for my UMM-6 mic?  I don't need a soundcard thing or anything?  I just plug the Audyssey mic into my laptop mic input and the HDMI cable into my 5509?  Presumably I have to select the mic in Rew prefs somewhere?  What do I tell REW to do?

 

This idea might help me get some hands-on time before my mic arrives (Feb probably).

I always love seeing pictures of your room, Feri. It looks so inviting and comfortable. 

 

I am sure you are right Jerry. It can't be that you cannot master this - I just refuse to believe that, knowing you as I do. It all points to some basic incompatibility in the hardware IMO.

 

+1. We're in a strange limbo at the moment, all waiting for our USB mics. I hope Jerry can get it to work but I can easily understand that he has reached, for now at least, the end of his tether with it.

Keith, start out like this:

1. In REW -> Preferences -> Soundcard tab click on ASIO Control Panel. You can make multiple selection. Although I don't know the internal structure of your laptop, but in my case it is the Realtek sound card that takes care of the analog mic input. Make it active. Go back to Soundcard and in Output select Mic.

2.As you see ASIO4ALL is now the distribution center linked to REW, so it will control all available audio inputs and outputs, all the user has to do is set it up properly. You may need to experiment a bit, but it will work for you as well, I'm 100 % confident.

Let's talk.

 

This is one area where I am definitely outside my comfort zone and where, I hope, this thread will eventually give me a step-by-step guide/101 on this. I need to be 100% sure that I have a) Windows and b) REW preferences set up correctly. I am currently working my way through the REW Help pdf, but, as expected, the documentation lags behind the software, so even though the Help is for ver 5 of REW, it has no mention of USB mics and HDMI connections. I am determined to do my best to get it all working, but I am worried that my settings will not all be correct, unless I have that 101 to guide me.

 

Thanks Feri, I will give that a try later and report back.

 

When you say 'select mic' what will it say in the Input box for the Audyssey mic?  (I assume you meant Input above??)

Sorry, you are right it should be INPUT. In the dropdown menu it will say something like "Mic1, Mic 2"...It doesn't know it's an Audyssey mic, here we are in the "good old" analog world! Meantime, the laptop will detect that a new hardware has been plugged in!