Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How... - Page 62

@Keith,

Those graphs look pretty good!  Time to relax.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 

@Keith,

 

Those graphs look pretty good!  Time to relax.

I hope so, Jerry. It's more by luck than judgement - the most frustrating thing about a very small room is that one of the very best tools at our disposal - placement - is limited or, in my case, almost non-existent. I have one other option, for example, for one of my subs - in the left corner, matching the other's position. But when I dragged it there temporarily and measured it, there was only the tiniest of changes in the graphs, so it is back where it is, almost midway along the left wall. I’d love to have a room two or three times the size of this one so I could put into practice all the theoretical stuff I have learned over the last year. I know I could do better if I had more of a free hand. Still, almost everyone has to compromise in one way or another in their HTs, so there's no purpose in complaining. I am just pleased that I have made such a small space sound so good.

Incidentally, one of the big benefits, for me, of installing all those treatments wasn't in just the obvious - it was the way they made the room sound so much bigger!  It is uncanny to sit in such a small room and close your eyes and listen to the sheer 'size' of the acoustic space you're sitting in. There's no doubt at all in my mind that the biggest single improvement I have ever made to my HT has been the addition of the treatments. Also happens to be one of the least expensive upgrades I have ever made too. 

Yes, I think that taming unwanted reflections allows for the intended reflections/ambiance engineered into the recordings to establish the soundstage.  This is clearly very desirable for movie content.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 

Yes, I think that taming unwanted reflections allows for the intended reflections/ambiance engineered into the recordings to establish the soundstage.  This is clearly very desirable for movie content.

This seems to be the effect for sure. 

I'm never really sure what people mean when they say "this works for movies but not for music" or vice-versa. The system doesn’t know, or care, what it's reproducing so a system that is good for one should be good for another The only exception I can see to this is wrt to the much greater demands on a system for bass output from movie tracks, compared with the much less demanding requirement from music tracks. But we cater for that with good quality subwoofers.  

A music soundtrack will have the ambience of the venue recorded into it (classical music) or engineered into it as desired (studio-produced music). Any additional 'ambience' (aka reflections) induced by the room will be added to that already in the content and thus be a distortion. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selden Ball 

A counter-point argument is that while watching movies, we're distracted by the visuals, so poor audio reproduction isn't as noticeable. When listening to music, we aren't distracted, so minor problems can be much more obvious. Of course, things sounding different does not mean they're wrong.

Fair comment, Selden. I doubt if many of the OCD-ers in this thread are 'distracted/ from the SQ of their systems by anything though!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdurani 

IF the dip doesn't show up when you measure each speaker individually, then I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Sanjay, could you elaborate on that a little please? I think I know why you say that but I'd prefer to hear it from you. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selden Ball 

A counter-point argument is that while watching movies, we're distracted by the visuals, so poor audio reproduction isn't as noticeable. When listening to music, we aren't distracted, so minor problems can be much more obvious. Of course, things sounding different does not mean they're wrong.

This is not exactly what I had in mind.  Music in many cases relies on a certain amount of reflections in the listening room to sound "alive".  If the room is over-treated, the music can sound dull and lifeless.  Movies, on the other hand, have the ambience necessary to reproduce the effects engineered into the soundtracks, and don't rely on the room reflections as much.  I don't think it is a matter of poor audio reproduction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selden Ball 

A counter-point argument is that while watching movies, we're distracted by the visuals, so poor audio reproduction isn't as noticeable. When listening to music, we aren't distracted, so minor problems can be much more obvious. Of course, things sounding different does not mean they're wrong.

 

This is not exactly what I had in mind.  Music in many cases relies on a certain amount of reflections in the listening room to sound "alive".  If the room is over-treated, the music can sound dull and lifeless.  Movies, on the other hand, have the ambience necessary to reproduce the effects engineered into the soundtracks, and don't rely on the room reflections as much.  I don't think it is a matter of poor audio reproduction.

Why would the music recordings not have the ambience of the venue recorded into them?  WRT to classical music, my understanding is that the halls it is played in are a crucial part of the performance and some enthusiasts will go to great lengths to hear their favourite orchestras in different venues such as, for example, Carnegie Hall or the Albert Hall or the Concertgebouw and so on, such is the influence of the hall on the sound. I find it extraordinary to imagine that a major objective of the recording engineers would not be to attempt to capture this ambience. With studio-recorded music, surely the engineer will add any ambience, reverb etc that he feels is required or is mandated by artistic requirements? 

This is the part I don't get wrt to the discussion at hand. If the environmental factors of the recording space/venue have already been recorded into the soundtrack, then how does adding some additional ambience at the playback venue help?  Surely it is just distortion?

Are we talking the difference between stereo recordings and M/ch recordings perhaps? Is it stereo recordings which need the ambience added back at the playback venue?  This would obviously not be the case with movies as they are almost exclusively M/ch recordings. And presumably not the case with M/ch recordings of music?  If so, then this might also explain why music sounds so good in my two channel room which is entirely untreated, although I suspect it is that I have learned to 'hear through' the problems induced by the room and don't notice them any more. Interesting topic.

EDIT: if my assumptions are correct then a move to M/ch music would seem to be urgently needed. To rely on the vagaries of multiple playback venues, with an unknown 'reflectivity quotient' seems to be an entirely hit and miss affair, with nobody really having any idea how the finished product might sound because it will sound different wherever it is played. 

As part of my recent experiments with treatments and REW, I have been using music in my HT in order to evaluate bass. The music has mainly been Jazz or Jazz Fusion and all the recordings were stereo but I also played them in PLIIx Music mode and was highly impressed at how good they sounded. They were all studio-recorded tracks and they gave a superb feeling of jazz being played in a more intimate 'club' atmosphere - venues I have had considerable experience of. I didn't try any classical music (I was evaluating bass) but maybe I should, from my limited repertoire of such content. 

Here's some:

http://kiwi6.com/file/vo80ks3b34

from here:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1387178/archaeas-kansas-city-blind-subwoofer-shootout-2012

Fun stuff!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Selden Ball 

Keith,

There are quite a few speaker systems which have been intentionally designed to incorporate the listener's room's acoustics as part of the experience. Planar electrostatic speakers and planar magnetic speakers are a couple of examples. DIY dipole designs using more conventional magnetic drivers seem quite popular, too.

I think it's a matter of what you're used to listening to. The emphasis on replacing your own room's acoustics with what's been recorded seems to me to be a relatively recent development. Of course, some AVR manufacturers have been providing ways to simulate it for some time -- even going so far as to let you effectively specify a particular seat in a concert hall. "True audiophiles" have always looked down on those simulations, of course.

Yes, concurred Selden. The problem with speakers designed to work with the users' room is that every room and every speaker placement in the room is likely to be different. That's why I personally prefer to remove the room from the equation as much as possible and to listen only to the speakers. I believe that any ambience I need should have already been recorded at the recording venue, especially if it is a concert hall. It would be a poor recording of classical music at, say, the Mozarteum in Austria, that excluded the natural ambience of the venue. But as you know, my HT is really only used for movies and never for music (other than maybe casual background music while I am doing something in there, or for when I am testing bass for rhythmic and timing qualities etc). All IMO of course.

It would be interesting to draw fitzcaraldo into this discussion as he has a very good system and huge amounts of experience with live music in concert halls. Next time I happen across him in a thread I will ask him his view and whether he uses treatments at all to tame his room reflections.