Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How... - Page 69

And as a result I presume it sounds horrible.

basicaly what i have done is time align the other 3 subs with the mains and verified with REW the best response at and below the mains xo point. My prepro did get it right as long as I have the near sub off when I do it. When I add in the near sub it does give some depth to the bass and I can actually flatten the response across more seats. It doesn't sound horrible to me but then again that may be relative. Nothing I would like better than to get it aligned and say wow it did sound horrible before. I have read other threads which contend in small rooms (ie home) time alignment of subs is not that important because of other modal factors. Once I get a pre pro with dual sub outs I will confirm. Wish the 1124 had time alignment. Maybe I will just get a DEQX or other unit than can align four subs.

The left and Right surrounds are mounted up-side down in my system. Sorry for not mentioning this before. I have them oriented this way so they fit my old Omnimounts. (Have you noticed how much harder it is to find speaker mounts in stores these days, if you're looking for a model that can hold more than a few measly pounds?) After the REW graph showed the traces crisscrossing, I was afraid the speakers were out-of-phase and I might have to replace the mounts to make them upright again. TG I don't have to do this. I placed an OC 705 panel in the corner, next to the right surround speaker to cut down corner resonance there and that was enough to improve FR just a tad. Even the midrange ticked up a bit where it sagged before on the graph. I will have to add book shelves and install more panels in the ceiling corners, like I've done to the opposite side of the room to make this all work, not to mention experiment more with sub placement, as everyone here has been doing so feverishly. Thanks for your help sdurani.


Bob

BTW, how does it sound with the surrounds elevated?

^^^
With the couch ~3 feet from the back wall and the surrounds in the tri-corners, as you suggested, I get a much improved 360 effect, the midrange sounds smoother and the mains play with more clarity. It's really something. On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being the best) my system has gone from a strong 4 to a high 7 with just these two changes. Of course, I have tried the surrounds near the corners before, but that was a long time ago, before I started using room treatments. Without the treatments, the flutter echoes were unbearable and I knew I was disturbing the neighbors upstairs whenever I cranked up the system. With the next few changes, it will just blow away everything I've had in the past.

REW is such a helpful tool. And you know, all I really need it for is to make simple measurements and maybe provide a few waterfalls. Something I can't do with an SPL meter alone.

hello
I am new in this thread, so I would like to introduce myself.
I have been playing with video calibration quite a bit, but audio calibration and setup is completely new to me. Recently I bought new speakers and AVR, so now I would like to start playing with audio.
I looked around different forums, and REW, USB Mic and HDMI laptop looks the right way to go for me. I am thinking of buying an UMIK-1 next week, maybe using miniDSP in future for the subwoofer.
One reason for going the UMIK-1/miniDSP way is that I live in Hong Kong and it would be easy to contact the company or get to meet them.

I read the step-by-step guide from this thread. Looks very good. Just what I need.

One question: I have Windows 8 PRO 64bit. Any problem with that? Or any special setup needed?

 

Hi and welcome to the thread. I'm sure someone with W8 64bit will chime in. I have W7 64bit and REW beta 5 works just fine with that so I would imagine it will be good with your Windows version too.

 

Sorry I can't give you a definitive answer - just wanted to welcome you.  

Hello, I am having difficulties getting the proper calibration and looking for some assistance. Specifically, when I take a measurement I receive the "too low headroom error" and it won't take a proper measurement. I am new to REW BTW.

My setup is as follows:
- Win7 x64
- Using the HDMI method
- Latest beta REW build
- Followed the PDF config/setup exactly
- I'm using the EMM-6 (with the cal file downloaded per my serial #) with a MicMate USB adaptor
- Marantz 6006
- KEF iQ90's
- Noise floor right around 46db from REW's SPL meter

When I performed the calibration step via the REW SPL meter, I set my SPL meter to C weighted, slow, level 80. The mic is on a mic boom stand pointed straight up and in the MLP. The master volume on the Marantz was at -13 when my SPL meter was hitting 80db. I selected "Finish" in REW.

When I go to perform a measurement (left chnl), that is when I get the low headroom area. For kicks I turned the master volume to about -3db and it took a measurement but obviously that voids the calibration previously done.

Does this have anything to do with my "non-professionally calibrated EMM" or can my EMM still be used REW?

Any thoughts?

Just turn the volume down. You're still calibrated, it's just that there's a peak somewhere that goes over the headroom.

Fear not, you're heading in the right direction.

BTW, there are "average" calibration files for the EMM-6 on HTS, and you should be able to download a calibration file using your serial number from dayton, which should be even better.

Hi, thanks but I'm confused. You say turn down the volume (in rew or avr)? Isn't low headroom saying I need the master volume turned up?

BTW I do have the cal from Dayton based on my serial#

If I'm not mistaken low headroom simply means the signal you're playing is too great for your soundcard to handle which will result in clipping if you go any higher. From your description, though, I think you're confusing low headroom with the LOW VOLUME pop up at the end of the mic calibration procedure. If this is the case (if you're getting a low volume message after you calibrate the front left speaker) try testing your mic with the Sound Recorder on your computer. I'm not familiar with the Dayton EMM-6 mic and the MicMate USB adapter, but this simple test worked for me and revealed a problem with my UMM-6 mic.

Hope this helped,
Bob

Great information on this thread, thanks all for posting! I have a question. I have just ordered the UMIK-1 mic as I live in the EU and the Dayton may come in later, but the UMIK-1 is it for now. Here is what I want to do...

I will be using the UMIK-1 with HDMI out on my laptop to my Denon 2309 AVR

I only want to calibrate my Subs, I run two subs on a mono channel .1 from my LFE out on a y-splitter. I have also ordered the mini-DSP to go with it. Do I want to calibrate each one individually, then together? Or just both together? And if I do both together, where do I point the mic? As I understand it the umik-1 has to be pointed at the speaker itself no? Does that make it useless if I want to do sweeps of the whole system in operation at some future date?

Thanks in advance!

Thanks. However according to the setup guide, when taking a measurement, headroom should be between -25 and -5. Mine is above the -25 value (I don't recall offhand, I think -30) and to quote the guide => "If the value is too low, REW can’t take a good measurement, and a warning will be displayed."


That is the error I am receiving and not the "LOW VOLUME pop up at the end of the mic calibration procedure". That seemed to be normal (my AVR master volume was at -13 and the SPL was showing 80db).

I not sure what to troubleshoot next?

^^^^Check the levels in Windows for the speakers and mic.  Set both to 100 and see if you still get the error.  A MV of -13 should be enough on the AVR.

 

You want to calibrate the subs as a pair (the way they will be heard). If you are using two subs in a Y-cable config, then ideally the subs should be identical and located at the same distance from the MLP. This will allow you to use the sub distance trim setting to adjust the distance to get the best possible splice at the chosen crossover.

 

It would also help to gain match them before doing anything else. You need to use the mic in the way it was calibrated - so if the cal file is for a 90 degree orientation, use it that way. It is for a horizontal orientation use it that way. It probably won’t make a deal of difference for the subs - the mic being omnidirectional and the subs being the same.  You will be able to use the UMIK-1 mic for sweeps of the whole system but it will need to be pointing up at the ceiling. If there is no cal file for it to be used like that, then you will have to run it uncalibrated. It won't give you such an accurate result but it will probably be good enough. (The UMM-6 when calibrated by Cross Spectrum Labs comes with various cal files to cater for all normal requirements). BTW, I live in the EU too but I still use a UMM-6 - Herb is happy to ship internationally. 

 

When you say you want to 'calibrate' the subs, I assume you mean you want to apply some form of EQ to them via the mini-DSP. It is possible to calibrate two subs individually, but it is much more difficult.  

 

The only response that matters is the combined response of both subs working together - IOW the response you will hear.  If you EQ Sub 1 to give a flat response and then EQ Sub 2 to give a flat response, when you combine them and measure, you will see that you almost certainly no longer have a flat response. You would need to create the filters for Sub 1 then measure Subs 1 & 2 playing together, then create filters for Sub 2 and then measure Subs 1 & 2 playing together and rinse and repeat until the combined respons is flat. This could take a huge amount of time and may never actually yield a flat response for the pair of subs playing together.

 

I am about to EQ two identical subs and have already decided to go the much simpler route of EQ-ing them as a pair. This is the way Audyssey does it, for example, and if it's good enough for Audyssey it's good enough for me ;) I will measure the in-room response of the subs playing together then put the resulting graph through REW's EQ section and adjust until I am happy I have achieved a suitably flat response. There are several ways to skin that cat and your aim is to use the smallest number of filters you can to get the job done, preferably cutting rather than boosting wherever possible and manually adjusting the REW calculated filter set - removing those with very small bandwidths (less than 4 say) and those that make very little difference to the curve (say +/- 3dB or +/-2dB if you are really keen). When I have a curve and filter set I am happy with, REW will upload it to my Behringer 1214P PEQ and then I will measure the result and compare it with REW's predicted result. I expect it to deviate ;)  Then back to REW, make some more adjustments and try again until the response is as flat as I can get it. One benefit of the Behringer is that it has 10 presets so I can create up to 10 candidate filter sets in REW and upload them and then simply switch between them while measuring to see which is best. Probably the mini-DSP allows something similar?

 

Good luck and do report back how you get on, The EQ feature in REW is potentially one of its most useful features IMO.

^^ Keith: does that mean you're EQ'ing your Submersives with a Y-splitter and a single sub output? That forces you to set a common post-Audyssey distance and trim. AFAIK the Behringer doesn't have a delay setting for its internal channels.

I thought about getting the MiniDSP for that reason, if I'd wanted to go that route and have an external PEQ handle delay rather than my Denon 4311 (which might come in handy because you could integrate PEQ and distance tweaks in one interface). But I think the 4311's delay control, combined with XT32/Audyssey Pro with two independent sub inputs, offers more sensitivity than what the MiniDSP has from what I've read.

Actually, I'm thinking of redoing my Pro Curve Editor adjustments on independent L, R, and sub channels, now that I'm comfortable with REW and the 'better' UMM-6 calibrated mic (I'd set them up on L+R+subs, and measured that way, when I used OM), see if I can improve a few minor things at 1/6th smoothing for 70 to 100 Hz, and max that out before I go your route. Possible room treatments aside, that is.

One reason: the knowledgebase with the Behringer and MiniDSP on HTS seems to be DIYers with limited Audyssey experience, and there's enough quibbling on AVS threads and there about the 'Behringer hum', proper MiniDSP voltage and the right MiniDSP device/plug-ins that I've rethought how much time I want to put into this depth of the rabbit hole unless there's no other options.

Also, the one sub area that really could 'need' PEQ improvement at an audible (1/6th smoothing) level is a pre-Audyssey peak at 25 Hz, and that (as per a Senior Shackster @ HTS that saw my sub with and w/o Audyssey chart) is debatable. The rest may be mains/sub splice managed rather than what more EQ of the sub channel can do.
Edited by sdrucker - 3/17/13 at 1:04pm

Thanks Keith for the information, very interesting.

The subs are different (B&W 10" 250W and and Empire, Dual 15" 600W), however equidistant. One of the reasons I really wanted to start doing this was because of that fact. They sound good together, but want to dial them in with an EQ.

Having done more research and gotten more information and recommendations from the HTS forum, the Mini DSP 2x4 with the 4-Way Advanced plug in will act as my splitter (LFE out from my sub in and then use channel 1 + 2 to go to the different subs) This would work for four subs as well...

I can set gain/delay, polarity for each channel as well as a PEQ ofc...I can also mute one sub while I EQ the other(s), or I can just eq them together...

This is the recommendation I got over there, and it seems pretty solid, though, I could do what you said and just EQ both, or do them separately, and then EQ them together. Should be a snap with the Mini DSP to do the subs separately and then together. Or is that just a waste of time and not even worth the five minutes?

Once the subs are EQ'd, then I will run audyssey as I like what it does for the rest of my setup...

Can't wait to see how it turns out...hope Customs here in Germany doesn't sit on it for three weeks like they tend to do before notifying me the shipment is ready for pickup (and payment)...I am not sure if you can save profiles or different EQ measurements like your Behringer, will let you know

Cheers

 

 

No. I am using the dual sub outlets into the 2 Behringer channels and then out to the subs. It is the normal setup IOW with the Behringer 'in between'. I can still adjust levels and trims independently, post EQ, just as I can with Audyssey, post-EQ.The delays and trims will be applied before the Behringer, but so what?  If you believe that adjusting trims and levels before the EQ will affect the EQ slightly, I can see that, but it is then just more trial and error and measuring to get the best compromise. Changing trims and delays post-Audyssey is normal practice and doesn't throw off the Audyssey calibration - but we don't know if the adjustments are made before the EQ or if the EQ is made before the adjustments. I suspect the EQ comes first because it is part of the Audyssey 'routine' to set the distances and delays but I am theorising. I don't think it matters that much - the result of the PEQ is likely to be much more dramatic.

 

 

 

All understood. This is pioneer territory so it's all going to be suck it and see I think. I think you can assist the splice by getting the subs' response flatter. The closer both the speakers and the subs are to flat (or falling at the correct slope is perhaps more accurate) at the XO region, the better the splice should be. I think :)

 

The curve editor is OK if one has no other means of EQ-ing Post Audyssey but it is so primitive that I think its usefulness is limited. Better than no post-Audyssey EQ at all I guess.

 

Ignore my suggestion for gain matching then as the subs are quite different to each other. Your method sounds fine to me, using the mini-DSP. If you EQ the subs separately to get them flat and then EQ them together as a pair, I'm not quite sure what that would achieve - but it's easy to do so why not try it and see?  Please report back!

 

I usually phone Customs as soon as I know the package is in their hands (from the Fedex etc tracking info) and ask if I can pay the duty there and then. That usually works here.

Will report on that for sure Keith! Good tip on calling them, I will try that this time:)

I would still follow the advice to EQ their interaction, but with one possible exception: EQing the lowest frequencies that the dual-15" sub can handle might overdrive the 10" sub. So, use the same filters on both outputs of the miniDSP, asthough you're applying global EQ to both subs using a Y-splitter, but consider rollling off the lowest frequencies of the 10" sub (just to protect it from trying to keep up with the dual-15s). Aside from that one difference, the rest of the filters should be the same.

BTW, just because you're EQing the interaction of both subs, doesn't mean you can't use your miniDSP to improve the interaction prior to EQing. Try playing with phase/delay and level controls on the miniDSP to see if you can get the response smoother, which will make subsequent EQ steps easier.

Here's an earlier cap of left and right surround speakers with one sub along a side wall, showing traces crisscrossing.



And here is a new measurement with two subs placed behind the couch.



Big, big difference. I will test it again tomorrow with Antimode 80033S-2 to see if it can help with 70 Hz dip.

OK! Ordered the Dayton UMM-6 USB Mic calibrated Cross Spectrum Labs. I have a question. I have an hdmi soundcard that supports/has true ASIO drivers out the box. Any difference? This in my card:
http://www.auzentech.com/site/products/x-fi_hometheater_hd.php


16/24-bit / up to 192kHz (HD Audio playback)
16/24-bit / up to 96.0khz (Multi channel playback)
16/24-bit / up to 96kHz (Recording)

API Supports

WDM, ASIO2.0
EAX® 5.0, Direct Sound®, Direct Sound 3D®, OpenAL

I read the REW guide in this thread v2.5 (very helpful!!), and read about connecting the laptop to the AVR with HDMI.

Question: my AVR does not have a front HDMI connection. But my Oppo BDP-103 has a front HDMI connection, and the Oppo is connected to the AVR through HDMI.
Can I connect the laptop to the Oppo instead of the AVR?
Edited by turboman123 - 3/18/13 at 4:09am

Need some help, though. After HDMI REW 101 installation setup I get no output to my Denon AVR, from the REW SPL calibration window.
Using a Dell Insperion 15 laptop, Win7, HDMI. Dayton UMM-6 mic.
I can access all speakers (5.1) through the Dells soundcard during setup but REW generates nothing
I've tried different startup sequences and settings with no luck.

I'm using the front HDMI on my Oppo BDP-105 but going direct to power amps. Should work on AVR via 103, though, as that will bypass the DAC and bass management on the Oppo.

I never got mine to work and replaced it. New one works fine. If you got it at Spectrum Labs, Herb there is a fine gentlemen and you should have no trouble getting a new one.

You've checked that the Levels in Windows are set to 100?  Have you checkled that the devices are active in the ASIO Control Panel?

 

 

Yes, and yes also set to mic and HDMI to default. UMM-6 records and seems fine too. I just don't know. May have to go old school and use Java.

I would like to measure my speaker system in its current state and each speaker's response out of the reciever from near-field. My problem with this is, (this is an all-PC setup) My reciever is only S/PDIF connceted. It has no HDMI. I do multichannel gaming by using DTS-connect and setting my windows speakers to 5.1. This forces the game to output its 5.1 channel track, which is then compressed with DTS by the sound card and sent to the receiver, which decodes the channel. DTS and dolby digital native streams are simply transported with s/pdif pass-through.

My issue is that with this setup, I am not getting roomEQwizard to recognize all of my speakers. I am about to pull the trigger on a UMM6, as the calibrated behringer is too expensive and the noncalibrated ecm8000 costs about the same.

I've currently saved 2 seperate calibrations: One is going from the sound card via optical to the receiver, then receiver headphone output to the soundcard microphone input in order to create the loop back for calibration. The second way was to go directly from sound card analog out to sound card mic in with an aux cable. The first way caused some major subwoofer humming, btw. I dont know if that is important, but it seems like it made either a ground loop or something else. It wouldnt be a problem for actual testing though.

Here are my calibration results: http://imgur.com/a/HpjcD#0