or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How... - Page 9

post #241 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Hey Feri, how's it going? BTW, just wanted to mention that the graph you ;posted above is still not 1/24 octave smoothing. It's still 1/3 octave smoothing. Not sure how you measured the graph or captured it, but the post below shows what a 1/24 octave smoothing graph looks like.
BTW, here are two graphs of my own taken from the exact same measurement. Graph a) is the 1/3 smoothing graph
a.jpg 71k .jpg file

and graph b) is the 1/24 octave smoothing graph.
b.jpg 81k .jpg file





Max

P.S. personally, I prefer to use 1/6 octave smoothing for graphs to 20kHz and No smoothing for graphs focusing on the 5-250Hz range.

The same graph above with 1/6 smoothing


And a bass region only graph with No smoothing

Hi Max, all's well in my neck of the woods. Thanks. smile.gif

As regards the graph I think you are right, it did look pretty smooth for me as well even after setting 1/24 smoothing. Each of the graphs were averaged in REW after taking 6 independent in-room measurements in a style we place the Audyssey mic during setup. Could it be that an averaged graph looks quite smooth even at 1/24 smoothing while a single point measurement will show up like in your example?

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #242 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfattbill View Post

Can one use the mic that comes with the Omni-mic system with REW? I mean the OMM cal file is nothing more then a text file at its heart, at least right clicking it and editing it with Notepad++ shows it just like the Radioshack generic cal file that you can download for use the REW.

Am I off base here?

Bill

I believe Keith has tried this as well, and got it working. While using the OM mic will allow you to hone your REW skills, I don't think the calibration file that you are using will provide accurate measurements in REW. I could be wrong. Why don't you ask the question on the OmniMic thread--can the OM mic be used with REW, and does the OM calibration file, when used with REW, provide accurate measurements? Many OM users might like to hear the answer.
post #243 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrfattbill View Post

Can one use the mic that comes with the Omni-mic system with REW? I mean the OMM cal file is nothing more then a text file at its heart, at least right clicking it and editing it with Notepad++ shows it just like the Radioshack generic cal file that you can download for use the REW.

Am I off base here?

Bill

I believe Keith has tried this as well, and got it working. While using the OM mic will allow you to hone your REW skills, I don't think the calibration file that you are using will provide accurate measurements in REW. I could be wrong. Why don't you ask the question on the OmniMic thread--can the OM mic be used with REW, and does the OM calibration file, when used with REW, provide accurate measurements? Many OM users might like to hear the answer.

 

I can confirm the mic works in the sense that it acts like a mic - how accurate it is will be anyone's guess. I have to say that the graphs mine produced did not look like the results I get when using OM itself so I suspect that the mic is only useful for testing at this stage. If we can use a cal file with it, then it could be a solution.

post #244 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I can confirm the mic works in the sense that it acts like a mic - how accurate it is will be anyone's guess. I have to say that the graphs mine produced did not look like the results I get when using OM itself so I suspect that the mic is only useful for testing at this stage. If we can use a cal file with it, then it could be a solution.

Keith I had some odd looking graph at first when testing with the Audyssey mic. Thinking nothing of it, just kept playing around with the measurement. What I found was even though I maded the change in the Windows Control Panel before starting, the laptop mic and Audyssey mic was picking up the sound eek.gif.
post #245 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post


Keith I had some odd looking graph at first when testing with the Audyssey mic. Thinking nothing of it, just kept playing around with the measurement. What I found was even though I maded the change in the Windows Control Panel before starting, the laptop mic and Audyssey mic was picking up the sound eek.gif.

 

That doesn't make any sense to me.  If you go into the sound option in control panel and select recording devices, even though the internal ATAPI mic and the mic connected to the external stereo mini-jack are listed, one of the two will be set as the default device.  The other device should be inactive.

post #246 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_mike View Post

I think you may be driving the LFE channel (channel 4 on HDMI) as well as a full range channel? Only run channel 4 in isolation, the other channels include the sub due to AVR bass management.
Regards, Mike.

Edit, sorry didn't see the earlier relies.

Hi Mike, you may be right. I'm not even sure after making so many changes during testing tongue.gif.
post #247 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I often find that when someone replies to a question that has already been answered, that the additional replies, being worded slightly differently or explained from a different perspective, can actually illuminate.

Keith you are so right.
post #248 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

That doesn't make any sense to me.  If you go into the sound option in control panel and select recording devices, even though the internal ATAPI mic and the mic connected to the external stereo mini-jack are listed, one of the two will be set as the default device.  The other device should be inactive.

Thats what I though as well unitl I tap on the laptop mic and Audyssey mic. Both picked up sound with mic 1 selected in REW input. This are pics saved from yesterday.

Before starting REW



Audyssey mic plugged in
post #249 of 9491
So I think I may be getting in way over my head here. Based on the initial rapture with PNP I ordered a UMIK-1 from miniDSP, and like others am awaiting shipment. I also picked up a used Windows netbook that I'm expecting to arrive early next week. Once that arrives I will try to explore the REW wilderness - but my measurement experience is limited to running XT32. I'm concerned that since even many forum vets are experiencing varying levels of frustration & distress trying to unravel the dark mysteries of REW that I will end up disappointed and frustrated as well.. As a starting point I would like to examine the crossover integration between my mains and my subs - should I be looking for another approach/measurement solution?
Edited by ggsantafe - 1/11/13 at 4:18pm
post #250 of 9491
hello, this thread rocks and lets us roll on iwth REW.
Question i run 64 bit W7. ASIO will not properly install from either the website of from CNET. And the update link, 2.11. at ASIO also fails. I selected "use the proper setting" but i have no program in my file. I have the manual and and UNINSTALL BUT no program to run.
I dont have the mike as suggested yet (on order) but i'm trying to be prepared.
post #251 of 9491
asarose

Not sure if I read it here or over at HTS but a couple of people were having the same problem and it turned out to be their antivirus blocking the download.
post #252 of 9491
JimP. thanks Ithought i'd done that but i'll give it a go.
post #253 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi Max, all's well in my neck of the woods. Thanks. smile.gif

As regards the graph I think you are right, it did look pretty smooth for me as well even after setting 1/24 smoothing. Each of the graphs were averaged in REW after taking 6 independent in-room measurements in a style we place the Audyssey mic during setup. Could it be that an averaged graph looks quite smooth even at 1/24 smoothing while a single point measurement will show up like in your example?

Yes, the average is much more smooth than individual measurements.
post #254 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Hi Max, all's well in my neck of the woods. Thanks. smile.gif

As regards the graph I think you are right, it did look pretty smooth for me as well even after setting 1/24 smoothing. Each of the graphs were averaged in REW after taking 6 independent in-room measurements in a style we place the Audyssey mic during setup. Could it be that an averaged graph looks quite smooth even at 1/24 smoothing while a single point measurement will show up like in your example?

Yes, the average is much more smooth than individual measurements.
Nope, that's incorrect.

Feri, even with averaged graphs, what matters is the individual graphs' smoothing settings before averaging. You can quickly try this on your own:
If you take 6 graphs, set each graph to 1/3 smoothing, then average them all to produce Avg1

and

Take the same 6 graphs, individually set them to 1/24 smoothing, then average them all to produce Avg2.

Avg1 will be much smoother than Avg2. You will also discover that when you save the mdat of the averaged graphs (I took a look at your mdat zip file), you can, at a later time change the smoothing to a lower resolution (i.e. switching the smoothing of Avg2 from the original 1/24 to 1/3 smoothing makes it look similar to Avg1 with its 1/3 smoothing), but you now cannot increase the resolution (I.e. switching Avg1 from the original 1/3 to 1/24 smoothing still looks like 1/3 smoothing).

REW is incredibly powerful in how you can manipulate what you want to see from measurements (so you can analyze the results), eg. what range you want to focus on, and how much resolution you want, but you need to be careful to set it properly.

As with Jason's example of always measuring full range because you can always zoom in on the bass region later if you want to, whereas if you set REW to ONLY measure the bass frequencies, you won't be able to use that measurement later to see the full range result.

Likewise, when averaging measurements, if you start by setting each individual measurement to No Smoothing, the averaged result will have maximum resolution, which you can later decrease if you want to view the full range averaged measurement at 1/3 or 1/6 smoothing for example. But if you want to focus on the bass, you can zoom in on the 5-300Hz range of this same averaged measurement and set it to No Smoothing for maximum resolution/detail.

If however, you created the averaged measurement from individual measurements with smoothing already applied, you won't be able to see the maximum resolution (No Smoothing) at a later time, unless you take all the individual measurements again and average them again AFTER individually setting them to No Smoothing.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 1/12/13 at 2:15am
post #255 of 9491
^^^ Hi Max, great info.
post #256 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

That doesn't make any sense to me.  If you go into the sound option in control panel and select recording devices, even though the internal ATAPI mic and the mic connected to the external stereo mini-jack are listed, one of the two will be set as the default device.  The other device should be inactive.

Thats what I though as well unitl I tap on the laptop mic and Audyssey mic. Both picked up sound with mic 1 selected in REW input. This are pics saved from yesterday.

Before starting REW



Audyssey mic plugged in

I have the same reservations about this as you do. I was reasonably sure too that the internal mic and the external mic were both active at the same time. I know Jerry is right that it can’t really be so, but this is now two of us who are thinking the same. We need to get to the bottom of it for when our 'proper' mics arrive.

post #257 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

So I think I may be getting in way over my head here. Based on the initial rapture with PNP I ordered a UMIK-1 from miniDSP, and like others am awaiting shipment. I also picked up a used Windows netbook that I'm expecting to arrive early next week. Once that arrives I will try to explore the REW wilderness - but my measurement experience is limited to running XT32. I'm concerned that since even many forum vets are experiencing varying levels of frustration & distress trying to unravel the dark mysteries of REW that I will end up disappointed and frustrated as well.. As a starting point I would like to examine the crossover integration between my mains and my subs - should I be looking for another approach/measurement solution?

 

You absolutely need measuring gear to optimise the XO region, otherwise any changes you make to the sub delays are just guesses. OmniMic works very well for this and is how I resolved my issues with the splice.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about the 'teething issues' we are reporting. For example, it took me 5 hours yesterday to get it all figured out (with much frustration, swearing, cursing of Bill Gates (and his dog) and hair-tearing. But... I did finally get there, or at least 95% of the way there. By the time the mics arrive, we should have a pretty good handle on how to get up and running quickly. Jerry is also working on a step-by-step (literally) guide that looks absolutely marvellous so far and will be a massive help to everyone once he is ready to publish it (soon). As everyone's laptop will be different, the guide cannot be perfect but I have used the first draft to set myself up and I can tell you it is a huge help. Where there are differences they are usually fairly obvious to work out - eg your soundcard will have a different name to my soundcard, but it is still obviously a soundcard. Jerry will also update the Guide as feedback comes in, so it will get better over time. It is a great piece of wrk IMO.

post #258 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post

hello, this thread rocks and lets us roll on iwth REW.
Question i run 64 bit W7. ASIO will not properly install from either the website of from CNET. And the update link, 2.11. at ASIO also fails. I selected "use the proper setting" but i have no program in my file. I have the manual and and UNINSTALL BUT no program to run.
I dont have the mike as suggested yet (on order) but i'm trying to be prepared.

This version of ASIO (attached) works for me. It is Zipped to comply with Forum requirements for attachments.

 

 

 

 

ASIO4ALL_2_10_English.exe.zip 392k .zip file
post #259 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

^^^ Hi Max, great info.

+1.

 

One for the FAQ I reckon...

post #260 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Nope, that's incorrect.

Feri, even with averaged graphs, what matters is the individual graphs' smoothing settings before averaging. You can quickly try this on your own:
If you take 6 graphs, set each graph to 1/3 smoothing, then average them all to produce Avg1

and

Take the same 6 graphs, individually set them to 1/24 smoothing, then average them all to produce Avg2.

Avg1 will be much smoother than Avg2. You will also discover that when you save the mdat of the averaged graphs (I took a look at your mdat zip file), you can, at a later time change the smoothing to a lower resolution (i.e. switching the smoothing of Avg2 from the original 1/24 to 1/3 smoothing makes it look similar to Avg1 with its 1/3 smoothing), but you now cannot increase the resolution (I.e. switching Avg1 from the original 1/3 to 1/24 smoothing still looks like 1/3 smoothing).

REW is incredibly powerful in how you can manipulate what you want to see from measurements (so you can analyze the results), eg. what range you want to focus on, and how much resolution you want, but you need to be careful to set it properly.

As with Jason's example of always measuring full range because you can always zoom in on the bass region later if you want to, whereas if you set REW to ONLY measure the bass frequencies, you won't be able to use that measurement later to see the full range result.

Likewise, when averaging measurements, if you start by setting each individual measurement to No Smoothing, the averaged result will have maximum resolution, which you can later decrease if you want to view the full range averaged measurement at 1/3 or 1/6 smoothing for example. But if you want to focus on the bass, you can zoom in on the 5-300Hz range of this same averaged measurement and set it to No Smoothing for maximum resolution/detail.

If however, you created the averaged measurement from individual measurements with smoothing already applied, you won't be able to see the maximum resolution (No Smoothing) at a later time, unless you take all the individual measurements again and average them again AFTER individually setting them to No Smoothing.


Max

Thank you Max for clearing up matters. Will also be very useful when setting up a guide on "how to post graphs".

Appreciate your help as always.

Take care.
post #261 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You absolutely need measuring gear to optimise the XO region, otherwise any changes you make to the sub delays are just guesses. OmniMic works very well for this and is how I resolved my issues with the splice.

I wouldn't worry too much about the 'teething issues' we are reporting. For example, it took me 5 hours yesterday to get it all figured out (with much frustration, swearing, cursing of Bill Gates (and his dog) and hair-tearing. But... I did finally get there, or at least 95% of the way there. By the time the mics arrive, we should have a pretty good handle on how to get up and running quickly. Jerry is also working on a step-by-step (literally) guide that looks absolutely marvellous so far and will be a massive help to everyone once he is ready to publish it (soon). As everyone's laptop will be different, the guide cannot be perfect but I have used the first draft to set myself up and I can tell you it is a huge help. Where there are differences they are usually fairly obvious to work out - eg your soundcard will have a different name to my soundcard, but it is still obviously a soundcard. Jerry will also update the Guide as feedback comes in, so it will get better over time. It is a great piece of wrk IMO.

Keith - thanks for the reassurance - I look forward to AJ's guide and will screw my courage to the sticking post and muddle on!
post #262 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Thank you Max for clearing up matters. Will also be very useful when setting up a guide on "how to post graphs".

Appreciate your help as always.

Take care.

I think we should utilize some of the HTS forums FAQ's if that is possible? They have lots of information on how to take graphs and how to post them. I am not a forum guru, but is that a no no to repurpose others stuff? If so, I totally understand, but just don't want to reinvent the graph wheel here when it is tried and true over there. Just a thought.
post #263 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnbum88 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Thank you Max for clearing up matters. Will also be very useful when setting up a guide on "how to post graphs".

Appreciate your help as always.

Take care.

I think we should utilize some of the HTS forums FAQ's if that is possible? They have lots of information on how to take graphs and how to post them. I am not a forum guru, but is that a no no to repurpose others stuff? If so, I totally understand, but just don't want to reinvent the graph wheel here when it is tried and true over there. Just a thought.

 

Linking to the HTS FAQs would be OK, but it does then take people from this site.  The FAQ I have in mind for this thread is a) for beginners, b) for the REW 5 USB Mic/HDMI connection method. 

 

I haven't thought this through yet, but my idea was to concentrate on a FAQ that had the basics - a lof it is actually covered in Jerry's Guide anyway. As you say, there's no point reinventing the wheel and if the HTS info is good for the purposes of this thread, then we should refer to their material. I think we have already agreed to use the HTS formats for graphs posted - anyone got a link to that BTW?

post #264 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by JChin View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

That doesn't make any sense to me.  If you go into the sound option in control panel and select recording devices, even though the internal ATAPI mic and the mic connected to the external stereo mini-jack are listed, one of the two will be set as the default device.  The other device should be inactive.

Thats what I though as well unitl I tap on the laptop mic and Audyssey mic. Both picked up sound with mic 1 selected in REW input. This are pics saved from yesterday.

Before starting REW



Audyssey mic plugged in

 

I cannot get my laptop to recognise the Audyssey mic.

 

While I was there checking just now though I did notice you can disable the built-in mic by right clicking with it highlighted.  That solves the problem of both running at the same time.

post #265 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Nope, that's incorrect.

I don't object anything you said after, but what I've said is also correct. The average is more smooth than the individual measurements as you eliminate pretty random processes from the measurements (like comb-filtering is a little bit different on every other point and you get less of it when averaging and getting smoother picture). And.. I've tried it myself!
post #266 of 9491

Pictures are always better than words.  Look at these graphs:

 

 

 

The top graph shows 8 measurements (actually my 8 Audyssey mic locations), with 1/12 smoothing.  The averaged response (the red curve) is therefore also at 1/12 smoothing (the curve has a -20dB offset so it is more visible for this example).

 

The bottom graph shows the same 8 measurements, but this time smoothed to 1/3, with a new average, also at 1/3 smoothing.

 

There are two points to this example.  First, @Igor, there is a semantic difference here.  The Average is not "smoother" in the sense that it has the same smoothing applied.  However, agreeing with your point, it "looks" smoother, because averages by definition smooth out the variations.

 

Second point is augmenting Max's excellent earlier post.  Even though an average represents the same smoothing as the underlying measurements being averaged, you can delete the average, apply a different smoothing to the underlying measurements, and re-generate the average based on the new smoothing.

 

REW is really flexibile in the way data can be represented!

post #267 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post

hello, this thread rocks and lets us roll on iwth REW.
Question i run 64 bit W7. ASIO will not properly install from either the website of from CNET. And the update link, 2.11. at ASIO also fails. I selected "use the proper setting" but i have no program in my file. I have the manual and and UNINSTALL BUT no program to run.
I dont have the mike as suggested yet (on order) but i'm trying to be prepared.

After ASIO installs, there will NOT be a program to run - ASIO support has been installed - when you run REW, you can then access the ASIO control panel from within Preferences (its not a stand alone program).
Hope this helps, Mike.
post #268 of 9491
Kbarnes and AV mike
thank you for leg up. Its installed and I'm trying not to be. as was suggested, I'm "experimenting " with my audyssey mike.
post #269 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

Linking to the HTS FAQs would be OK, but it does then take people from this site.  The FAQ I have in mind for this thread is a) for beginners, b) for the REW 5 USB Mic/HDMI connection method. 

 

I haven't thought this through yet, but my idea was to concentrate on a FAQ that had the basics - a lof it is actually covered in Jerry's Guide anyway. As you say, there's no point reinventing the wheel and if the HTS info is good for the purposes of this thread, then we should refer to their material. I think we have already agreed to use the HTS formats for graphs posted - anyone got a link to that BTW?

This is what I was hoping for, instead of 8 pages of setup problems which, I think, would have been better suited for the Home Theater Shack site.

The recommended settings for graphs is here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/934-please-read-posting-graph.html#axzz2HmZTEzXy

I've dusted off my old setup (RS SPL, Mobile Pre, old laptop, etc.) and look forward to working with the waterfalls that, hopefully, we'll all be generating and learning about.

Soon? wink.gif

Michael

post #270 of 9491
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

Linking to the HTS FAQs would be OK, but it does then take people from this site.  The FAQ I have in mind for this thread is a) for beginners, b) for the REW 5 USB Mic/HDMI connection method. 

 

I haven't thought this through yet, but my idea was to concentrate on a FAQ that had the basics - a lof it is actually covered in Jerry's Guide anyway. As you say, there's no point reinventing the wheel and if the HTS info is good for the purposes of this thread, then we should refer to their material. I think we have already agreed to use the HTS formats for graphs posted - anyone got a link to that BTW?

This is what I was hoping for, instead of 8 pages of setup problems which, I think, would have been better suited for the Home Theater Shack site.

The recommended settings for graphs is here:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/934-please-read-posting-graph.html#axzz2HmZTEzXy

I've dusted off my old setup (RS SPL, Mobile Pre, old laptop, etc.) and look forward to working with the waterfalls that, hopefully, we'll all be generating and learning about.

Soon? wink.gif

Michael

 

Thanks for the link. Yes, the 8 pages of setup problems can seem to be offputting I agree - just consider it as 'chatter' between the pioneers of this thread - Jerry will be publishing his Guide soon and I think that will be exactly what you are looking for. He has boiled it down to a series of 'steps' - follwing them leads you to taking your first measurements, along with a brief explanation of how to read and interpret them. From that point on, the discussion will be about how to use the info REW provides, mostly. It is a great Guide and I am sure you will enjoy it.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Audio theory, Setup and Chat

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Audio theory, Setup and Chat › Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs