Originally Posted by jevansoh
A few comments and questions...
First, Please don't take my lack of posts recently as evidence that I'm "gone" as I am far from gone and read every single post in this (and many other) threads every single day, 7 days a week.
I have not participated in this thread for awhile for a few reasons.
First, Jerry (and a few others) has done a remarkable job getting folks set up and measuring and understanding the basics. This was the first step.
Second, I believe the majority of folks that are interested in this topic have now had time to stumble upon this thread and get involved. I always hope there will be more people than learn how important acoustics design and implementation in their rooms is and that more individuals will realize that the most drastic improvements they'll be able to make in their system is acoustically treating their rooms and not spending $1000's on new gear.
I don't have the time to help each person individually and I'm not trying to sell any products or services to people. I have no vested interest whatsoever and any information I present or have presented is with the sole intention to give back to the folks that helped me get interested in acoustics on the many forums I've read for many years. AVS, unlike Gearslutz and HTShack doesn't have many threads (and hardly any "active") dedicated to acoustical science and my goal was to change that.
I believe we are to the point now that folks are comfortable taking measurements and for the most part have any/all issues worked out with the hardware and setup.
While waiting for this to occur and things to calm down, I have let the thread get a bit derailed and I apologize for that.
Here's the thing, though. I have absolutely no issues with people who are genuinely interested in assisting people learn about acoustics because it is their passion, like mine, discussing and disagreeing with the methods I have intended to teach, but I've felt many times that the participants in this thread have been purposely confused and derailed by a certain poster who has even made remarks about me and my competency in the field of acoustics in at least one other thread.
There will always be disagreements on the best way to implement a certain design and I'm all for an adult conversation with points to argue from reasonable and respectful individuals that are passionate about their field, but when folks who have an ulterior motive chime in only to disagree, start arguments, and confuse people that are just starting to learn, it's a real turn off for me and them.
The first step was introducing folks to a new and easier way to take measurements and getting everyone on the same page with how to display and interpret the measurements themselves.
I believe we've accomplished that.
The second part has always been Choosing an acoustical model. Folks need to start doing this. Although Keith, for instance, hasn't specified this, through his last several comments he has made it clear he prefers an NE (Non-Environment) model for his room. That's great! I can help him achieve that.
I personally prefer a LEDE/RFZ (RFZ is nothing more than a method to achieve LEDE and is "NOT" a separate model as a lot of people think)
There are a few posters here, in my absence, I tend to agree with on most points and I'm going to single them out.
Localhost and I seem to be on the same page. I don't know where his education came from, nor does it matter, because I haven't found even one single error he's made in any of his posts on this (and a few other) thread.
Nyal and I agree with most targets and Nyal's comments are probably easier to understand and appreciate as he has a gentle way of speaking and trying to disseminate the information. While Nyal and I disagree on the use and importance of the ETC (If I were sent to a desert island and could only take ONE tool, it would be the ETC because if you know how to properly use and interpret it, you don't even need the FR or Waterfall!) and the targets he suggests for reflections, we tend to agree with most other things. While I haven't had the opportunity to meet Nyal or even speak with him one-on-one, I do know his partner on his latest white paper, Jeff Hedback, and have the utmost respect for him.
For those of you who don't want to wait and don't want to have to figure out who is right or wrong and who to listen to or not on this and many other threads, I highly recommend the following publications:
These are likely available at your local library and are all available in digital format for the Kindle through Amazon. Most of my education comes from reading, interpreting, and applying the knowledge gained in real world situations from these publications.
Acoustic Absorbers and Diffusers: Trevor Cox and Peter D'Antonio - This book is THE Bible on creating and implementing each and every type of absorber and diffuser and is written by the folks from RPG which are the original creators of several products such as the BAD panel and 1D QRD diffuser. There is a lot more to acoustics than just throwing up fuzzy stuff/glass on walls and getting rid of all the reflections and this is the book that will teach you how to design and build the proper acoustical treatments, once you understand exactly what your goals are.
Master Handbook Of Acoustics: I believe most in this thread who are interested in this topic have probably heard of this book. This is where I'd start and in fact where I did start many years ago. This is a great text with introductory information on all the topics I'd like to discuss here eventually.
Sound System Engineering: Don Davis - EVERYTHING you need to know is in this book. It is rather advanced and has yucky math, however, I cannot recommend this text enough. I just bought another copy (older print, but still very useful) on eBay for less than $5.00 for the sole purpose of sharing it/loaning it to whoever may be interested - contact me if you are interested in reading this book and cannot find it at your local library and/or cannot afford the almost $200 asking price.
If you are reading this post, read (and possibly participate in) this thread, have REW set up, are taking measurements, and have a basic understanding of them - and most importantly - if this applies to "most" people in this thread, then we are ready to move on.
The problem right now, as I see it, and what is holding me up from personally participating more is that there isn't agreement and the folks that are disseminating most of the information don't even agree.
So... Like most things in life you have to decide who to listen to and who to ignore.
If you read and understand, or at a minimum at least "TRUST" the authors above and the information contained in their texts, then rest assured that I too, agree with what they have written and what I offer is teachings from their books based on my understanding of them.
If everyone will kindly refer to the first few posts I made in this thread, you'll find a link that describes the different acoustical models and I bet you'll agree with one of them at this point.
It is okay for people to argue for their preferred model. Nyal has even made his own which doesn't exactly conform to any long standing and widely accepted acoustical model and that is fine, too.
However, once you CHOOSE a model, there are strict guidelines for implementation and you'll be able (with help from myself and the other members of this thread who are "in the know" and as everyone gets on board and learns more, folks like Keith and Jerry et al will also be giving back and helping folks understand how to interpret, select, and implement these models for their own rooms - I'm sure of it!) to successfully implement said model - or at least that's the goal.
We must start somewhere. I think it's time for the arguing, especially by folks that claim to be professionals, to stop, for folks to CHOOSE a model, based on whatever their preferences are, and this is where PREFERENCES ARE ALLOWED - then.... We must stick to the guidelines of chosen model as closely as we can, understanding there are always budget constraints, aesthetic restraints, etc, and focus more on how to achieve our own preferred goals instead of trying to convince folks what is right or wrong.
For those of you that understand what I'm trying to say and especially those of you who I've called out, you'll probably realize I'm not the best at explaining things in 100 words or less so feel free to interpret this post and re-write it to explain exactly what I'm trying to get at.
To sum up, PICK A MODEL - List your model - I'll take the most popular request to start explaining the guidelines and we'll start working towards achieving it in your room right here on this thread.
For those of you who are NOT interested in moving forward in this fashion and are here to promote your name, company, products, or simply those of you who wish to be contrarian, I humbly suggest you bow out now. In fact, one person stated he'd do just that near the beginning of this thread and has not been a man of his word and has even gone on to badmouth me in other threads!!
I wish to continue in this thread and wish to help people. I just don't have the time or energy to fight along the way, though.
I have the information and am willing to share it if you are interested though.
For those of you who want to know my credentials and wonder who I am and where I'm coming from:
I have been in business for myself since 1995. I was 15 when I started my business. The company started as a computer store offering on-site service to consumers and business/government in OH/KY/WV. I opened my first retail location in 1997. In 1998 I started selling Cell Phones as our market had just gone digital and I found the profits to be more than (or at least on par with) selling computers, however, selling cell phones had none of the after sale headaches such as warranty repairs, tech support, etc, so I started focusing more on that.
Over the years I grew to 14 retail locations (only selling cell phones), a limousine company, and a Mexican restaurant, all while keeping that first (and only) computer store.
When I was 14, I got into Hi-Fi and my first large component purchase, after an "Optimus" (Rat Shack) receiver and 12 band EQ was a Sony CDP-CX270 200 disc CD Player that had Video Out!! It was eerily similar to the current BDP-CX7000es in form and function and I was hooked.
I soon upgraded to Alesis Studio Reference monitors, as even at the age of 17 I was all about accuracy and started studying acoustics in my spare time.
Acoustics, engineering, and social networking (and no, I don't mean facebook/twitter - of which I do not have an account at EITHER) have always been passions of mine and my passion for 2-channel accuracy soon turned into a passion for Home Theater and learning/implementing everything I could.
I subscribe to/am a member of all the well known audio societies/journal's and have read most texts on acoustics through the years. I have quite the collection, all in PDF format, of acoustical documents/texts/research and a few years ago became fascinated at the shear volume of information available for those who know where to look, such as all the BBC research on absorbers.
Although I'm very busy and spend ALL (I'm single) of my free time reading about acoustics and upgrading/building my dedicated room (it's a never ending process) I have never turned it into a full time business or made much of a profit as an attempt to have at least a bit of balance in my life and to try to still have a "hobby" and "fun" although I have to admit there have been several times, even recently, I've thought about getting into this business as I don't feel there are many truly passionate, educated, and well-meaning folks in this business - plus I have several innovative ideas about how to both build and market cost effective (read: inexpensive) absorbers and diffusers and for those of you who've looked at the price of TRUE (based on real science and design) QRD diffusors, they are extremely expensive.
So while I cannot promise I'll never enter this field as a business, rest assured I bring this information to you and share with you what I've learned and been involved with for more than half of my life with no ulterior motive and for no other reason than it is my passion and I'd love to see more people take an interest.
My parents are both retired teachers who became principal's and most of my family are either educators or doctor's. I am probably the WORST teacher in the world, but I do at least have a passion for the topic at hand and with the help of other forum members, I hope you'll be able to understand my writings, interpret, and condense them as Jerry already did on the wonderfully written guide.
I'm an open book and willing to share, willing to teach, and willing to assist in all aspects of acoustics, but again, I don't have time to argue and it's really off putting when certain members either have not read the first few posts of this thread or simply ignore the requests within them. I have no interest in speaking with or doing business with these shady characters and hope most folks have learned (just as I had to do) who to listen to and who to ignore but the ultimate goal is to not have to do that at all and get everyone on the same page.
Again, it's okay to have preferences and even okay to tout the benefits of your chosen model, but at least CHOOSE ONE so we can start discussing how to PROPERLY implement it.
If certain members keep trying to get people to stay away from the ETC for instance (and this is but one recent example - not at all the whole problem) then I'm afraid it would be an uphill battle and unwinnable war that I cannot participate in to try and overcome.
Also, please don't fall into the trap of listening to the folks that are the loudest, IE: The folks with the most post counts and post in this thread the most often. If someone is here trying to dissuade you from the original goals and intent of this thread and move you to another form of thinking, their intentions probably aren't the best and that is not someone I'd want to associate with, but you must decide on your own what you believe and what your goals are.
I only hope through further posts of mine and the folks on the same page as me you'll be able to take away some great information, improve your listening experience, and may one day finally get to Audio Nirvana.
Thanks again to Jerry, Keith, Nyal, Stuart, Roger, Localhost, and a few others for participating in this thread and having everyone's best interests at heart.
Now PLEASE go check out the link in the first (or maybe second??) post of this thread, read up on the different acoustical models, CHOOSE ONE, and let's start discussing what MOST folks want to actually ACHIEVE in their own listening rooms so we can steer the thread in the proper direction and start learning how to implement them.
I'm also all for folks discussing the merits of each model and talking about WHY you chose the model you did (or at least believe in the one you'd most like to implement) as this will help other people decide.
I think most folks will probably choose LEDE or NE (and the goal isn't to have certified rooms based on information only obtained in this thread - but at least to work towards them and get as close as possible within reason) as their model, but I honestly don't know which one will win out as most popular and I think it would be confusing to actually try to teach/help people achieve both at the same time.
So I now need your help in figuring out exactly where to go from here and as long as we can all stay on the same page and discuss the topic at hand without arguing the merits of a certain tool or trying to dissuade others from implementing the model they've chosen (trying to convert people to "your way") then I'm happy to participate here as often as time allows and look forward to speaking with you all much more often.
Thanks again to all the regulars and I hope this helps us get back on track and move forward!